I’m sure the more aware of you can see the obvious problems with UBI, being that most of humanity doesn’t even get out of bed when they don’t need to.
Greed may inevitably lead to rising prices since demand will increase under UBI. It can exist without an overarching monopoly (amazon?) with an interest in keeping prices steady across the board. It’s often lauded as liberating for the people, when in practice it may just make every man a slave in service to the emerging corporate class.
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The only people against UBI already have an income source they built off the backs of others. They will never be for it but I am as I have no income source.
>when in practice it may just make every man a slave in service to the emerging corporate class
Are you implying this isn't acceptable to the average Jow Forums user? Most of these idiots on here are NEETs whose idea of making a change in their society consists of staying at home, playing video games, and eating snack foods while pretending they're giving a giant middle finger to roasties and da joos by doing so.
So we could have a corptocracy that may decide how much each individual receives. It’s not a solution to automation, it’s just enslaving people under a ploy of public Appeasement.
Without monopoly, it’ll just be regular inflation. Though, the Automation coming down the line may increase the burden of that upon the average man.
But they are for it. There’s just no real way to sustain it. If everyone’s got money, that’s simply an opportunity to make more, don’t you understand? You’re damned if you don’t have a way to make a living.
Let’s forget about that for a moment. Really, that’s an excuse for poor predicament and lack of skill or motivation.
It would be easier to work with if all we were doing was producing what we needed to live instead of this hyper-specialized world we live in now.
It’s just going to lead to stagnation as the slave drivers pass on, leaving a clueless consumer populace with nothing to do but pass around paper without delivering services for it.
Well said
I'm just looking for a well reasoned argument for it since everything I've heard people spout about UBI has just been free junk for nothing. Yet I find it so very difficult to believe that such a system could be sustainable without total control. Its only been done in fiction, even then there wasn't a reasonable explanation for it.
Take Star Trek and how the federation apparently decided to just do away with money and instead live happily together working towards a better tomorrow. Well that's all well and good, but where are all the people sitting around getting high in Star Trek? People really don't move unless they're going to get something out of it. You don't make friends for no reason, you expect alleviation from loneliness, you get a job to pay somebody who needs to pay somebody else who pays the government who pays Mr Rothschild.
It's the reason Amazon is such a hit. Why leave your bed if you can just order shit to be delivered to you? That's what's going to happen with automation, nobody's going to want to move a muscle once its in full swing. So what's going to happen when you take away another reason to leave the house?
Society doesn't move based off not doing anything, it moves off of sticking guns to the heads of lesser men and driving them to push the sled forward.
Sure, there'll be people who'll have hobbies that might do well with that income if inflation doesn't kill it. There'll be plenty of people doing some wonderful things for themselves, but nobody's going to go out to do the shitty jobs. Of course they say from the bay area that we'll have machines for that.
The problem though is that there'll still be a bunch of people who don't want to bother with anything at all. You let one thing slip in your life, and it can be a struggle to come back up again.
Universal basic income is universal basic welfare. Leeches want universal basic welfare because they are universal basic lazy. If they want to avoid universal basic starvation they should do universal basic work. You cannot erase the universal basic laws of economics just because you're a universal basic piece of shit.
I think it would be an interesting social and economic experiment, having enough just to get by would feel like shit, I can't imagine doing nothing or free things all my life, as long as working is still incentivized and working is mandatory to support children then I'm for it
Let's be fair: pettiness aside, if everybody was given enough money to survive I doubt too many people would be against it. People could still work some jobs to get more income to obtain more luxaries, the basic income just being enough to provide enough food to live on, a Spartan but livable house and maybe a couch and a small TV. While many would be content with that, I would say that there would be enough people who still want to work that society won't shut down, and because there is less of a worry of everything collapsing due to the income, less stress would also occur.
The main problem is that this is a nice -hypothetical- scenario. The way the world is right now if something like this were to be put in motion, the money provided would be just enough to buy a days worth of food per week and maybe a Mars bar. This is something that maybe should be worked towards, but is still very likely a very long ways away.
To be honest, my ideal scenario would be a world where everybody is at least at a baseline where they can live, and have the ability to move up in society, having enough of a base level of resources to allow them to start moving up. But again, pipe dream.
But that's what they're pushing as a solution to the Automation crisis where people are just flat out put out of work by cheap machines.
You should just look at the Appalachians. Lots of people on welfare there who do nothing for free shit.
It's not pretty.
Lots of people already do the bare minimum to get by. Take the work out of it, and they'd become professional consumers overnight.
The only reasonable argument I've heard goes something like this:
>Remove all welfare except UBI
>UBI will not spend any additional beyond current welfare programs
The idea is that welfare is badly managed, and this will allow individuals to become productive easier by allowing them to spend on what they need. It also teaches current welfare queens how to actually pay bills, buy food, etc because it won't just be given to them. They will have to learn to budget.
Obviously this will mean a significant portion of welfare queens will misspend and fuck themselves and their children.
If SJW retards working at Starbucks want to have half their paycheck taken from them by the state so welfare sheboons can shit out more niglets, be my guest. They can go suck my fucking dick, I work off the books.
>Universal basic income is universal basic welfare.
So, Star Trek.
Didn't you get the memo? When we go from 99.9999% automation to 99.99999% automation, soyboys deserve gibs for existing
So, replicators that can create things out of thin air as a result of an ancap bringing us to the stars after socialists and commies destroy most of planet earth during WW3.
Let's be honest with ourselves.
Under fully developed UBI, there's two main castes: a corporate caste and a general public. The corporates will live in extreme wealth, while the general public will live happy lives. However, there will be additional castes. Politicians will, of course, keep their entrenched positions, since the masses will refuse to go unrepresented. Entertainers, similarly, will keep their above average life. The most important entertainers will not be people with known names.
The long and short of it is that the average person posting on Jow Forums will live a much better life than they are now, regardless of current career. The good lives of the corporate class will hinge entirely on the willingness of the public to buy their brand. As we've seen over the past few years, it is incredibly easy for public figures to misstep and get a consumer revolt called upon them. Congruent to this is the power of anonymous online posters and sock-puppeteers to incite said revolts. Just as the birth of the internet made an environment where hacking power players would get you a slap on the wrist and a life-long career, showing an ability to drum up negative emotion towards companies will give you a very nice life, very quickly, in the decades following the birth of UBI.
tl;dr UBI will make the most pro-active posters rich.
A Mars bar is just enough to buy a decent amount of potatoes. I mean, you can practically live off of potatoes and some vitamin supplements.
Except with druggies, depression, and more places like that odd group of genetically altered humans from DS9 who can't function in society.
You really don't understand how bad UBI is until you see just how shit of living circumstances some "humans" find acceptable enough to shit out even more offspring.
In the US, we already have a shit ton of people that are a net drain on society (minorities) and an increasingly smaller number of people to support these leeches.
Maybe UBI would make sense if everyone at least tried to be productive.
Authoritarian systems often lead to some solution similar to UBI, except they always have some gambit to correct it's problems such as euthanizing the inferiors.
>Take Star Trek and how the federation apparently decided to just do away with money and instead live happily together working towards a better tomorrow
None of this is true, and it's why you don't understand UBI. The people that still get out of bed will be the people with services that are worth vast sums or major perks to the corporate overlords.
Yea it's frustrating. I have worked since 13 but i have been having health issues, got fired for being sick, government won't give me insurance or unemployment untill i can get better. I would be fucked without family and friends and then you got these assholes who never worked a day in their life, sit around and get free food, free healthcare, free money, free phones and even free fucking housing. I don't get it. Work hard get chewed up and spit out. Don't do shit, don't worry about it you will have more than people who work.
Not to worry, they're hard at work trying to depopulate this shit.
UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME IS THE LEFTS NEW "VOTE PLANTATION" STRATEGY.
EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE "WELFARE FOR BLACK PEOPLE - VOTE DEMOCRAT" EXCEPT THEY NOW WANT TO EXPAND IT TO EVERYONE - MILLENIALS ETC, AT THE EXPENSE OF THE TAXPAYER.
YOU WANT FREE MONEY? - VOTE FOR US, AND YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO WORK.
Well of course those people are getting out of bed, but the Average man? Why focus on exceptions when we're talking about a transition from talking the average human into working because he has to in order to live wherever he does, to telling him he only has to do this because he wants to. The life of the average individual is going to effect the psyche of the exceptional.
>Take Star Trek and how the federation apparently decided to just do away with money and instead live happily
It wasn't that simple. WW3 happened and commies and socialists destroyed most of the planet over petty squabbles. An ancap then hollowed out an undetonated ICBM and used it to invent the first warp vessel with the motivation of pussy and money. It was eventual alien technology that put humanity into an era of post-scarcity, not any form of socialism or communism. Believe it or not, Star Trek preaches heavily against those ideologies and makes it very clear that its their replicators that eliminated the need for money. There's no a single episode which portrays blind collectivism in a good light.
I'd like to see projections on the amount of people who will be replaced by automation in the next 20 years, I think transportation alone being automated would have a huge impact on the economy. If universal basic income isn't the answer what is, population control, creating jobs for the uneducated or forcing everyone to finish college?
universal basic work isn't plentiful enough. The jews want to strap the unhireable into VR and masturbate them to keep them compliant.
THE HARRY POTTER MEME HAS STOPPED WORKING, ... START USING THE STAR TREK / PICARD MEMES, THAT'LL WORK!.
> I'M AGAINST UBI COMMUNISM
THE LEFT: MUH PICARD
> OH OK, YOU'VE CONVINCED ME THAT MY TAXES SHOULD PAY FOR A BUNCH OF LAZY COMMUNIST CUNTS.
Price of booze junk food and cigarettes go up, the dumb die quicker. It's kind of growing on me
If you type in all caps your post is more important
But... morals.
CORRECT!
ALL CAPS IS BORG-SEXY!
it actually works, people will notice it more
In all honesty I kind of like the fact people are so lazy and bad at their jobs. More upward mobility for me. It's not perfect but it's possible to navigate
In the US it would be cheaper to give every person over 18 15k a year than it is to run the entire welfare system.
Only the US could find an expensive way to give poor people money.
ALSO THE PROJECTION FOR THE NUMBER OF SELF-DRIVE TRANSPORTATION BEING RAIDED AND ROBBED AND DESTROYED.
LOL
When the bar is lowered so that only the exceptional people bother to get out of bed in the morning, it makes is far easier to identify the exceptional. The only change to the psyche of the exceptional will be a greater sense of happiness due to not spending their time working with co-workers that don't have ambition.
I don't want free money. I want chinks, indians and niggers out my land so my wages go up or taxes go down.
i'm unhireable, I'm 23 with a general 3 year bachelor arts degree and have only worked for 3 months my whole life in a factory, i got fired for being too slow. I'm also white. I need UBI or I will become a terrorist once mommy and daddy can't support me,
ALSO, IS IT ME OR DID SOMEONE USE WHITE-OUT AND A TYPEWRITER TO MAKE THAT FUCKING PIC?
UBI payout will be income based, so not every citizen is going to get the same amount.
There will be incentive to work for those materialistic wishing to purchase more than just life essentials.
UBI will merge all current forms of social assistance into one agency, and expand the acceptance to incorporate every person.
YOU SHOULD SET YOURSELF ON FIRE TO PROTEST GLOBAL FAGGOTRY.
It will be possible when we have robots doing the work
But you won't get the robots if people are staying at home collecting neetbux while the ones who do get most of their income stolen by the government
I used my phone, I wanted to use ms paint but it's too complicated for me.
UBI will just turn white people into niggers.
Plenty of people would still work, because $20k/year or whatever is barely enough to subsist on. Most people would rather have some extra cash on top of that.
But I still don't see the point, because it will never shut people up. Shanequa and the other idiots will still be terrible at managing their money (generally that's why they're poor to begin with), they'll still be living paycheck to paycheck, and they'll still bitch and moan that $20k UBI isn't enough to feed their six chillens. Most poor people are human scum.
I'm sure the NEETs would love it, though. It is their dream in life to sit around all day playing vidya in a cramped apartment, and a modest income would allow them to realize that.
I'm not convinced, the average argument against UBI presented here is basically the same canards conservatives have always had about many utopian ideas and where these ideas have been implemented theyve been astounding successes.
see: decriminalization of drugs in portugal, norways prison system reform, etc.
Its clear to me there is an element of people in society that get off on this perverse idea that life needs to be about suffering constantly and hating yourself. Heaven forbid we finally move past the stage in life where we have to work just to survive.
Life essentials will include Iphones, laptops, mcdonalds and internet. Canada is retarded, in reality you will have every white loser homeless and every drug addict shitskin making 20K a year with a freehouse.
Where can I see this?
NEXT TIME SPEND 1 BILLION YEARS IN PAINT.
It's not impossible, it's inevitable. The monopolists will pay a substantial sum to the taxpayers because the taxpayers need money to buy their shit. They can essentially pay the people a shit salary just to fuck off and use robots instead. Automation is coming bros.
People voting to give themselves 'free' money is the end of society
Only liberals self-harm to protest.
UBI is like democracy, doesn't work in a multicultural society.
>Heaven forbid we finally move past the stage in life where we have to work just to survive.
UBI doesn't get rid of that, though. It just forces other people to work to pay for the necessities you need to survive.
Society will live on without humanity, we'll all just be cowards in a brave new world.
How does it not cause inflation?
I'd rather spend an eternity trying to finger the fuck out my phone. This is the new thing, suck my dick.
OK DON'T DO IT AS A PROTEST, IMMOLATE YOURSELF AS DOING YOUR PART IN ENDING GLOBAL FAGGOTRY.
I can't imagine anyone sitting in their empty apartment all day eating bread and drinking water, they will either turn to crime or get a job, that or get depressed and blow their brains out.
>People voting to give themselves 'free' money is the end of society
It's not about this. UBI is only possible once automation reaches a level of technological aptitude to replace the human element entirely. Once people are out of work, they assuredly will demand gibs. The corporations will comply because robots are still cheaper. This is happening and there is nothing we can do to stop it. It's out of our control.
>is it impossible
it is inevitable if you actually want us to continue having technological progress because there will come a point where the majority of your country will be without work and a majority without income will destroy your government and your business and you too
We have more citizens than available jobs. Unless you are willing to cull the herd or have a homeless revolution burning cities to the ground, UBI will have to come in some form.
We already have basic income, adding the "universal" part is just expanding the program to accept everybody, instead of just single mothers and the disabled.
I'm not gay though, i'm just incompetent, lazy and disillusioned.
All of the benefits of welfare, none of the social strain pretty much
TFW DEMOCRATIC SJW STATES START PAYING CIS WHITE MEN LESS BECAUSE MUH REPARATIONS AND THE LITTLE SOY-BOI FAGGOTS ACCEPT IT BECAUSE THEY'RE DUMBOCRATS.
SO, ...YOU'RE CANADIAN GAY?
They bay area is so stupid. They cant even provide water for themselves.
I think you overestimate how exceptional people think. Sure, it'll be easier for exceptional people to move up if everyone's an unmotivated piece of shit, but what if the environment stops making exceptional people?
Kinda sounds like all the functional strain.
its almost as though giving those people free shit and signing them up to vote blue is a cornerstone of liberal politics in this country, while you rott on the wayside because for the price of helping you they can just import 3 pedros, xhangs, or pajhits and tell them to vote donkey.
i'm not canadian
How can you say this when history has proven otherwise? People have been bleating on for centuries since the industrial revolution began about how machines and automation will destroy jobs, and yet there are more now than ever before. While automation does take over some jobs, it also creates new ones. Software developer wasn't even a thing before computers, and now there are literally millions of software developer jobs in the US alone.
$1,046,000,000,000 per year goes to Social Security.
The current US population is 326,260,983.
If everyone got an equal share of that money, it would be only $3,206 per year.
If you cut out everyone under 18, it's still only $4,275 per year.
UBI is supposed to give everyone $12,000 per year to meet minimal needs.
There's not enough money to go around.
This will never happen tho
The problem is the moving of skillsets, lots of people won't be able to be retrained.
So you're a Gay Chinese man?
They can all finally be the brilliant artists they were before the pressures of being a citizen ruined their dreams and aspirations
it's not inevitable
the far more likely scenario is that we'll end up with neo-feudalism, with the wealthiest 1% living lives of unbelievable luxury with extended lifespans and full control over the surveillance apparatus, the next 5% fighting over the right to serve and eventually join them, and the rest fighting over scraps to survive
free market whore. You want a degenerate turbulent society where people are the tool of technology instead of tech being tools of people. "just adapt, your skills are worthless now, your labor is worthless" do engines get rewarded for their steam?
it would only work in countries without niggers and spics
LOL, CASE CLOSED.
THE VERDICT IS GUILTY.
THE SENTENCE IS DEATH.
>How can you say this when history has proven otherwise?
Because the automation technology we are currently cultivating is unprecedented in history.
>yet there are more now than ever before
Wrong, we've actually experienced 0 growth since the turn of the century. We log approximately the same number of work hours, even though the country has grown by 40 million people. Jobs go bye-bye.
>While automation does take over some jobs, it also creates new ones.
With the technology we possess TODAY, we could automate nearly half of the American workforce. You have no idea what you're talking about, so why did you right this garbage post? If you don't know something, then ask questions. Don't make assertions that you can't back up.
The money comes from tax dollars via corporations, not from the taxpayers themselves.
It's like that already though. It's just you idiots hide behind the guize of wageslavery giving your shit life some kind of laughable "purpose".
Being this new
That's the thing I keep coming to. For a lot of systems to work reasonably well, a lot of people will have to just vanish. I really can't imagine what we could accomplish if we could somehow tap into all the extra fat. I'm not entirely how a smaller society would work where everyone is contributing at the same level. There may be a time issue in there someplace.
i'm white
>i want white men and their robots to gib me mo money fo dem programs
UBI is income based so those making over [x amount] will not get anything, and those making a low net monthly income will only get a percent of the total UBI amount.
>a lot of people will have to just vanish
niggers
>deincentivising work is a good idea
>universal
>income based
Ted was right the problem with wage slavery is that it's just a surrogate activity, what you do with your life isn't actually related to your survival, just your comfort.
it can get a hell of a lot worse
right now you can still scrape your way to a decent position if you pick a boring shitty but profitable job, like plumber
but eventually those will be gone too
And you sound like a luddite. Technology generally improves standard of living and people's lives. It may put some folks out of work, but for society as a whole it's a net benefit.
I work for a cellular carrier in the US. Increased competition and commodification of wireless service has meant we've had to reduce hiring and costs. While this sucks for guys like me, it's great for consumers on the whole who have seen their service improve, prices go down, unlimited data plans be reintroduced, etc.
Point being, the change is going to happen whether you want it to or not. You can either adapt and stay relevant, or get left behind.
>Social Security
Good start, but you forgot to also get rid of Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Supplemental Security Income, housing subsidies, welfare for single women, all other forms of welfare and social service programs, agricultural subsidies, and corporate welfare.
Suddenly you have a lot more than your $12,000 target, don't you?
This is the only reason I like UBI, if done right it kills all the other social services crap.