Should Germany and France really produce their own jet fighters instead of just buying the tremendously good and cheap and wonderfully stealthy F-35?
I don't know, I am conflicted, on the one hand I know the F-35 is the best fighter jet in the world, on the other hand I think Europe shouldn't rely too heavily on America, as America is driven a lot by profits and not so much by friendship.
Other urls found in this thread:
en.wikipedia.org
youtu.be
twitter.com
>tremendously good and cheap
>f35
you clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about, jerry
You will buy our shitty F35's and like it Kraut Nigger.
dont bow to the amerishart, I like it
>Should Germany and France really produce their own jet fighters instead of just buying the tremendously good and cheap and wonderfully stealthy F-35?
you’ll have to actually fund the military to accomplish this. Can’t make planes out of broomsticks.
>doing something with germany
I would even trust UK more
>Don't buy our competitors products
>Buy our products
Every business ever.
Buy our planes like a nice Euro. They can even use the carrier ramps you people are so fond of.
>You will buy our shitty F35's and like it Kraut Nigger.
This.
lol rember the eurofighter we fucked up. a simple screw costs about 300$. 2/3 cant fly. the machines austria bought cant fly during the night because they have no night vision and our ones dont even have missiles. they literally take a picture with their iphone from the airspace injury.
Yes. Europe should only buy European. I don't mind Americans buying American btw.
Should have bought Gripen. High quality at a relatively low price.
>tremendously good and cheap and wonderfully stealthy F-35?
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Yeah haha why buy military aircraft from a country that beat you at war it's stupid heh
You mean
>tremendously overpriced and unsafe backdoored downgraded shit
The primary case against the F-35 is that it's the modern iteration of a cold war doctrine jet, designed to fight an enemy (Warsaw Pact) that no longer exists. All that stealth and fancy ECM is only useful for penetrating the air defences of a major nation, not the 4GW and "peacekeeping" that actually happens today. Israel will use it for middle east aggression but other than that it's mostly pointless, a $1.5 trillion project with insanely high maintenance costs that will either spend its time bombing illiterate goatfuckers that cost $200 to train and $50 to arm, or like the F-22 it won't be used at all because it's too expensive to risk.
They really should make planes that are designed around one role, and not attempt to make a one-size-fits-all kind of embarrassment.
o-ok
>best fighter jet in the world
>tremendously good and cheap
>wonderfully stealthy
Oh come on that barely even qualifies as bait
I think aerial warfare is on its last legs. There's so much action in the sea now, holy shit. Airbus cunt is bitter and paranoid that soon people will catch on and basically all combat jets will be scrapped to the Chinese a 1/1000th of what they paid for it, and then begrudgingly buy dreadnoughts and warships and all kinds of boats and shit.
Main issue with the Eurofighter is being ridiculously overpriced, because everything about it was defined by pork barrel politics rather than efficiency or what makes sense.
The Rafale is better too, ironic as it's a spinoff of France's involvement in the Eurofighter program.
Yes, fuck the Jew-35
USA already foot the bill on R&D, so now they can buy it on the cheap since USA paid for the creation, mass production is cheaper, cause USA paid the pro-types, the molds, the specs, they go the suppliers already.
This whole jetfighter thing is an ambarassment. Why not get MIG-29 if price is the only concern ?
>Can’t make planes out of broomsticks.
We have the best engineers in the world. If anyone can build jets out of broomsticks, we can.
>implying our Turk engineers could design anything to compete with a F35
This is military aircraft, Pedro. This isn't your father's cocaine distributing operation. Things are much more complex than that. Go bag another gram and think about what you wrote.
We should develop our own, not because he deserves extra Shekel but because the F-35 can't into post stall maneuverability and because the ones bought by Norway have been caught sending sensitive data to alphabet soup.
You already payed for it's development so they'd be cheap compared to designing our own.
Turkey is no threat, all our military programs should be done regarding China.
France is not purchasing US jets retard, they have the Rafale.
Unwilling to participate in American commercial failures, they decided to develop their own.
>ITT: people have no clue about the technology in the F-35
Go do actual research on this plane the the technology/software in it.
This plane can monitor and asses the status of an entire battlefield all on its own, if the allies using this plane can keep it in the sky this plane is one of the biggest assets you can have against a modern enemy (Russia, China, India, etc).
Why do you think they don't use these planes?
There of basically 0 use when it comes to a battlefield like Iraq or Afghanistan, the maintenance and upkeep far exceeds the practicality of using this in a war like we're seeing waged in the Middle East.
Basically, there aren't any worthy opponents for this plane to go up against until WW3 starts.
t. marine air wing mechanic stationed at a base with them
The task isn't as difficult as you think. The airframe was designed over 25 years ago and making the project as "diverse" as possible was a big priority. It's designed, built and programmed by underqualified blacks, browns and women which goes a long way to explaining why the fucking thing doesn't work yet.
Plus there's the handicap of using a vtol airframe for the non-vtol model. It wouldn't be hard to surpass the f35 with a proper team and uncompromised goals.
Yeah but can you get your dick sucked in the cockpit? Is there ample room in there for both the sucker and suckee?
>can
>you
>get
>your
>dick
>sucked
>in
>the
>cockpit
Why not do what the Chinese do with everything: just copy it, and make it better.
Yeah arguably it should all be about advanced drones now - much cheaper, missiles / bombs are automatically guided anyway, and if there's a scenario where dogfighting maneuvering is still useful, then not having the weight of a pilot / life support and being able to pull G to the limit of the airframe rather than human limits are big advantages.
However military spending in the US especially is mostly about transferring taxpayer's money to defence contractors, and superfighter projects like the F-35 are excellent for this task.
Yes leaf, you can fit a dog in the cockpit, if that's what you're wondering.
The Rafale is from the same generation as the Eurofighter.
But the French airforce has the same problem as the German Luftwaffe. The French have 240 combat aircraft, 130 old 1970s Mirage 2000 and 110 Rafales. The Luftwaffe has 230 combat aircraft. 130 old 1970s Tornados and 100 Eurofighters.
Both the Mirage 2000 and Tornados need a replacement solution until 2025.
It can't even fly in the rain
Yes of course
This
Like the A-10...does one thing, but does it very well
Now we have this "jack of all trades, master of none" over-engineered money pit
True. But what about chivalry ?
F-35 are a scam USA did to lots of his allies, those are stil way behind schedule as developing for lots of internal electronic systems.
italy is one of them people here are pretty angry at the cost of those useless shit thats only been pushed by propaganda not by actual genuine facts about f-35 being good.
That's not what I was wondering at all, I guess being a zipperhead makes it hard to not only read between the lines, but the lines themselves present a challenge as well.
kek
Do you seriously only have under 500 combat aircraft between both of your countries? I think a us national guard training unit has more aircraft then them. Sad
Replacing the a-10 with the f-35 is mind bogglingly stupid.the f-35 should have been 2 different planes.
Lol ok, Crayola
The Marines have enough trouble flying proven airframes that actually work
All that bullshit you just said assumes that the thing works. It does not. Did they figure out thst software issue yet?
Shoulda taken the super hornet and went for a direct harrier replacement but noooooo, jarheads just had to have something shiny and new just like the chair force
t. former airwing crayoneater
>good and cheap and wonderfully stealthy F-35
>the F-35 is the best fighter jet in the world
I lost, good one ur hilarious nice trolling
so they should adopt a two-tier system
a bunch of cheap, easy-to-maintain fighter/bombers that can take out goats but fail against sophisticated air defenses;
and some f-35s to do heavy lifting in actual competitive endeavors
Our millitary is a joke at this point
More than 2
Air superiority, ground attack, ecm, interceptors...
Agreed, fantastically stupid. The MIC at it's absolute best lol
But that's the thing. the f35 will also fail against sophisticated air defenses. Stealth only works against the small radars mounted on fighters ground based radars and awacs pick them up no worries
You have 5,600 military aircraft. en.wikipedia.org
Thereof fighter jets make up about half, so around 2500. This is 5 times more. Your military budget is also 5 times the size of the combined French and German budgets, so this all makes sense.
Just have metalstorm equipped drones to replace the a-10. They don't need an elite pilot to evade the enemy when you're carpet bombing rag heads with lead.
Anything satellite guided would be useless in a war against any serious enemy because the satellite network would be the first target.
I don't know what the leaf is on about but if he means warships with advanced AA capabilities then both these trains of thought lead to orbital warfare.
Fun times we live in.
Nigger... That's bait. But I'm gonna bite. The F-35, unless it has secret features I don't know about, is far from the best fighter. And yes, I agree with the Airbus guy about Europe having its own military equipment. But let's get rid of the current EU.
And now you understand why the Airbus CEO is telling germany not to buy the planes :^)
Didn't the Norwegians figure out those things send all data back to the US?
The F-35 was never designed to be used against a real threat that would make use of all its capabilities. They will be sent to trash before WW3 starts.
It is just R&D to keep america ahead of anyone else.
Better than anything Europe could invent, muhammed.
Haha well I guess the EU should design and mass produce cheap aircrafts whose main use is bombing goat fuckers!
xXx_Goat_destroyer_v1.3_xXx
Just buy the Gripen instead, Hans. Better aircraft, no atricious maintenance costs like all the burger planes have, and you won't have to live in military serfdom to the US.
I think you should buy the F-35 and also fix your raggedy ass military. But who am I kidding, we both know to a certainty that the former will happen and the latter will not.
>Best 'fighter' jet
>loses to sukhoi in wargames
Agree with this philosophy. It's shown to work.
>A10: Bust tanks and hard targets up
>B-52: Bomb the hell out of an area
>Air superiority fighter
>Stealth bomber for strategic stikes
>Drones for where drones are more useful
>ect.
Now they're trying to make every plane stealth, everything vtol, everything air superiority, everything high payload, everything carrier capable, everything long range, everything high tech, everything fast.
And they either fail and produce something that's mediocre-ish on all fields and only better due to being next-gen and still overpriced, like the JSF, or costs so much it's a joke they're too scared to lose like the F-22
But the people making this stuff get paid enough to retire their great grandchildren so I don't see that changing.
From what I heard the F-35 shows up like a small ball on ground-based radar. That was about ten years ago, though, when I used to read DefenseTech.
Oh yes.....like the hugely successful “euro fighter”.
We need weapons that work, created by those who use them:Brits,Russians, and Yanks. The Germans will probably want to install some morality AI or someshit.
They are absolutely right, the F35 experiment has been a massive fuck-up, yes they are meant to be good (when they work) but they are way too expensive, unreliable, and come with reliance on the US.
Lets compare 2 modern fighters, the F-35 B and the Textron Scorpion.
The F35 is highly specialised, it is difficult to re-purpose it for different missions.
The Scorpion is modular and easy to modify for whatever mission is needed, components can come from anywhere.
The F35 is delicate, it needs constant maintenance and is a massive risk every time it is used, when under maintenance it needs specialised parts and very specialised engineers, putting it out of service for long periods of time.
The Scorpion is robust and reliable, it uses commercially available parts which can be replaced and even upgraded easily by the engineers, maintenance is short and since they are low cost you are likely to have others to use while it is maintenance.
F35 missions are high risk due to its running cost and unit cost, it is unlikely to be used on 'low priority' missions such as patrols or striking small targets. The risk of an F35 being lost on these missions is too great.
The Scorpion being a light jet fighter and low-cost is perfect for these missions, multiple can be used at the same time. This is especially useful in combat against weaker targets such as militant rebels.
Cost per unit:
F-35 B - >$122m
Scorpion -
Serious question: is the F-35 good at emu ground attacks?
F-35 is crap
Not sure who told you this lol.
It has issues flying in inclement weather like any plane does, but rain/snow/dust certainly does not stop it from flying in those conditions, however, these conditions do increase the cost of the maintenance significantly in some cases.
Actually, we do know it works or it would've never made the cut to be mass produced. It had issues like any other plane in its infancy but most of the problems have since been fixed, many of which were software problems not hardware.
I understand your reasoning with the hornet comment but that era of planes cannot compete with the systems that have been developed by other nations such as Russia.
You can either train 40 pilots and produce 40 for hornets to overwhelm a target which half of them get destroyed or you can use a fighter like the the F-35 to cut that number to less than 1/3rd, if that depending on the situation.
Anyways, you guys can think whatever you want, i've thrown in my 2 cents.
I work around them and the mechanics who work on them specifically, the plane did have a bunch of problems years ago but nearly all of them have been worked out besides the cost which still hasn't decreased much and won't for another couple of years.
we should buy it because we worked on the project. why wouldnt we buy them?
Yeah that's part of it too, all the existing institutions / weapons systems / doctrine built around the noble fighter pilot mean that a lot of people have a stake in them continuing to exist. The same thing happened with late medieval knights, who continued to be a presence on the battlefield in increasingly heavy armour long past the point where advances in tactics and weaponry like muskets meant they weren't that useful anymore.
>we need working weapons
we can sell you pic related for a good price
1 F22 defeated 5 F15s .. F35 uses same stealth tech. So yeah I'd go F35.
I mean the EU isnt going to war anyway since theyd just get raped, I dont think they should bother with aircraft at all.
we should build a stealth fighter-bomber with Austria , Switzerland , Sweden and maybe France as a junior Partner - we do not need to copy paste a copy paste technology from the us . it`s like buying a french car although you could easily afford a Porsche
Fake news. Only a fool would believe that stealth could never be countered and it's pretty old tech now.
>Actually, we do know it works or it would've never made the cut to be mass produced.
What are politics? Are you seriously suggesting the US government makes sound spending decisions?
Fucking fliegender Sarg shill.
Every time.
Next-of-kin of the dead F-104 pilots should send a Gerichtsvollzieher to take everything you own.
No, go ahead! Go for it Germany! You can do it if you put your heart into it!
Just say goodbye to all your quality engineers in any knick knack industry you guys have as they all get sucked into the economically intensive ludicrosity of fighter production.
Weve been doing this balls to the wall for 50 years mate, misery loves company
I think you should shut the fuck up an pay your rent to your masonic kike landlord .
if the F-35 is a tricked out Bugatti Veyron the F-15 1980s era BMW M3
we already sell jets, the Rafale. So buy it rather than some american plane.
France and Germany are in the same union, thanks to schengen France has to buy german products but for I don t know what reason german keeps buying american equipement rather than french equipement. Explain this to me!
Gripen is basically a F18 in a different coat. Buy Gripen still makes you america's bitch, as it's filled with equipment bought from america. Only good EU plane is the french rafale, but that one isn't 'hip' because it doenst' have the overhyped stealth coating and a shitty VTOL ruining it.
Spain’s military is literally better than yours krautnigger.
The benefits of a military junta. Ourselves and Greece could defeat you at current levels.
>we should build a stealth fighter-bomber with Austria , Switzerland , Sweden and maybe France as a junior Partner
Based, it could like pic related
The F35 is expensive overkill, you get an unreliable fighter which does a job that less expensive fighters can do.
It is unlikely to see Germany ever fighting an enemy where the full power of the F35 will be used, I can only see them bombing muzzies at most.
This is something the US also needs to understand, why are they using such expensive jets on sand people bombing, they just need a few light fighters to zip over and drop a few bombs.
The US does need the powerful fighters but it needs a good fleet of light fighters for their middle eastern fights.
>quality engineers
If you looked a little closer at the f-35 program you might be disappointed. The design and production process would give an engineer a popped vein in their forehead.
mason here. weve decided to kick the kikes out and start over from scratch. Gotten way too messy. There are no "true" organized masonic temples anymore, its in name only for the time being
2 flying dicks ?
Overkill has been standard US army doctrine since WW2. If that means it can destroy a Chinese equivalent then I'm all for it.
when will you guys finish working on the AH-66
fucking hell
The number of people in this thread who are absolutely brain dead when it comes to modern air doctrine is astounding. Yes the F-35s development cycle was slow and expensive - just about every development cycle is, governments just suck at it. However the end result is the best fighter plane in the world with the only competition being the F22 which has a more specialized role. The F22 and the F35 are like the F15C and the F16 in terms of application, except both of them can still fucking wreck any other plane in existence so easily that it's not even funny. All of you morons saying we should make more 4th gen planes are retarded - the only way 4th gen planes can fight a 5th gen is by sending enough of them the 5th gens run out of AMRAAMs.
If Europe wants to be seen as any kind of a world power, they need to get on board with 5th gen, and buying the F35 is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper then trying to make their own.
F-35 is an unproven POS. Airbus is right. Why the fuck can't we develop our own shit?
>Work in city with GE aerospace plant
>Every engineer worth a damn coming out of universities ends up there or as a chemical engineer at P&G
>Lesser ones end up in their production chain of feeder industries
>Only shit ones work for unrelated industries
Shit sucks sometimes
You know that plenty of European countries are buying the F-35 right? And Germany barely has a functioning military anymore anyway so who gives a fuck what they think.
Yes. Is pic related better?
You're asking the wrong questions. He's lobbying.
Most of the planes used in the middle east by the United States are f-15s we don't even use f-22s over there because they're too expensive
>german engineering
can't those cucks build their own jets?
or they are not allowed because muh the past and people feel ashamed?