The MGTOW Dilemma

What we should do is stop being weak, cowardly faggots about it all. Divorce and all that garbage might happen, sure, but what’s at stake here is the continuity of the white race.

Don’t be a fearful, selfish prick.

Be a worthwhile man, find a worthwhile woman, reproduce, and build the better world you want to see. To refuse to strive for that is nothing more than cowardice, and your lame excuses will earn no respect from anybody who actually matters.

Quit counting on this meme to save whites, dipshit. Something in my gut tells me that playing God like this and growing children in labs will lead to serious chaos. Procreation is an almost mystical experience, the merging of the feminine and the masculine, the yin and the yang. Cutting out the yang, the feminine, is sure to have consequences, since every time we rely on scientific advancement to make things more efficient, there is always some way in which we have to pay the price.

Instead, find a decent woman and tame her. See pic related, best advice I've ever received and it saved my relationship.

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2/2

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Getting a few white babys doesnt warm you much when she divorce rapes your ass and takes your home and income

>Instead, find a decent woman and tame her.
there is no such thing as decent women
never
ever

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>Instead, find a decent woman and tame her.
If you can find a "decent woman and tame her" then why are you advocating marriage? If you tamed a woman, then why can't you get her to commit to you and raise a family with you without a marriage contract? The truth is tradcucks can't lead women to shit. At the end of the day each and every one of you bends the knee, presents her with a worthless shiny rock, and enter into a one sided government contract with her because she demands it. Tamed my ass.

>entering relationships with women
for what purpose? in your cunt this is the stupidest thing you can do to yourself
just bang and leave
don't tell them your name, your address, your job, your secrets, nada, it's probably boring anyway
just lie to them you're rich or have something going and be upbeat in general and don't take them seriously
and never pay for them, no free drinks, lunches, dinners, coffees, gifts, rent, none, they're equal and
proud of it and you're the biggest feminist and believe in equality therefore they pay for themselves
>cont? or if you have any questions while im here

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That happens less than half the time, mostly to unstable faggots who let fear guide their actions rather than the transcendent good.

What do you have to offer to the world anyways without a family? A house and your salary? Lol, noble goals you got there bud. They’ll rot with you in the dirt if you don’t grow up.

>might happen
>might
it's at least a 50/50 chance in mehrica
the land of the sue me

>Playing Russian Roulette is perfectly safe, goy. You die less than half the time!

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>selfish prick.
>not wanting to give all your shit to some vagina is selfish
only jewish lawyers profit from goyims misfortune
and women

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No shit, that's why you tame her. Women love fantasizing about the Beauty and the Beast archetype, like Twilight, because they are infatuated with the idea of seducing a man and taming his inner beast. They relish at the thought because they know it's the only real power they possess in this reality. But after they "tame" their men, they lose interest because the whole fun of the game was learning how to tame him. Once the game is over, they want to play with someone else.

The trick is to always keep her guessing and give her false hope about you being "tamed". What I mean is showing glimpses of your emotions, glimpses of your tamed self, but just subtle enough to keep her chasing after that which you will never fully give her. This keeps the relationship interesting to her. In a perfect world, women would love us for who we are and we could let go of our egos without fear of her leaving. But we don't live in that world and never will. Get rid of the cuck within you that wants to be all emotional with a woman and define the "real you" with your masculinity. This is Chad mindset.

>If you tamed a woman, then why can't you get her to commit to you and raise a family with you without a marriage contract?
Marriage would still exist even if government weren't involved, asshat. Marriage is a sacred covenant in which both parties say "Although I desire to fuck everyone else, I promise to bind myself to you forever in an act of transcendence above my primal desires." The sanctity of marriage is destroyed nowadays and this is why you have the viewpoint that you do.

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hahaha Jews have been hellbent on creating a mulatto-slave race in the West. However those mutts aren't going to uphold the wonderful society they are taking for granted. Instead the world will become a Negro Islamic caliphate more anti-semitic than the third reich. Israel will drown in a muslim flood. Jews have literally dug their own graves

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Meant to respond to you with:

there is no taming you bluepilled faggot
it is female nature, her bios
nothing short of lobotomy will fix that

>Marriage would still exist even if government weren't involved, asshat.
But the government IS involved in it, you fucking child. You tradcucks are always talking about the way it used to be or the way it could be, but this is the way it is now. And there's no fucking way in hell I'm entering into one of these bullshit contracts. I wouldn't do it even at gunpoint. If you want to change that reality (pic related) then change that reality, don't just talk about what could be.
>Marriage is a sacred covenant
Oh fuck off with your romantic fairy tales. Marriage is a technology that was adopted to harness the male workforce in exchange for institutionalized access to sex and reproduction, nothing more.
>The sanctity of marriage is destroyed nowadays and this is why you have the viewpoint that you do.
Indeed. And?

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Call me a faggot if you want, Kek has already spoken.
If a woman can sink her teeth into you and turn you from a masculine Chad into a squirming whiny child, then you bet your fucking ass that a man has much more power over his woman. You merely have to relearn to be what you already are. Ignore this advice at your own peril.

I'm 30, Mgtow and proud. Every woman my age has baggage, I'm not raising another man's kids. Younger women are addicted to smartphones and social media, they are toxic. Dating puts you between a rock and a hard place

>but this is the way it is now
And until you manchildren reclaim what is inherently yours, your masculinity, nothing will ever change and that I can guarantee. There is a void in our society of this masculinity. Women have destroyed it with feminism and such, and since they're mentally deficient compared to men, they don't even realize what they've done. You've had bad luck with women and I'm sure and you've given up, placing every ounce of blame on woman rather than even thinking to turn inwards and identify what about yourself is so unappealing to women. I've been on this site for years and I was also espousing the same shit you were until I realized that I'm just as much to blame for not being a fucking catch and not understanding how to manipulate a woman into being your servant (which is what she desires more than anything). I'm at this point in my life where my happiness is not dependent on a woman's validation, and she knows that if she left, I would hardly bat an eye. This makes her desire it even more.

>Marriage is a technology that was adopted to harness the male workforce
Quit regurgitating everything you read on Jow Forums. You're not incorrect, but this isn't the full picture. What you're describing is merely the effect, the byproduct, of the sacred covenant. It was intended for this purpose, yes, but that doesn't mean the origins of marriage aren't rooted in spirituality.

therationalmale.com/2014/09/01/the-myth-of-the-good-guy/

Do nothing, because you can do nothing. The West will slowly run out of men willing to die for more silly slogans and buzzwords, the next superpower will sanction it into irrelevance, like the old britain. Things get pretty bad, then after a few big riots and a nation or two, then the cycle starts again.

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Take your armchair psychology and projection and shove it right up your ass along with your fat wife's strap-on, tradcuck. You don't know anything about my experience with women except that I choose not to get married because it's a rotten deal. All you have to offer is empty promises about, again, 'what could be if'. I don't live in the world of if, I live in this world. And in this world marriage is a terrible, anti-male arrangement that only desperate beta providers enter into. And you never answered my question. If you're so good at 'taming women' then why can't you tame them into a non-government contract arrangement where they provide you with lifetime access to their reproductive capacity? Why can't you do that? You're a woman tamer, aren't you?

Masculinity has become obsolete in this era, it would be useless to pursue something that hasnt existed for 30+ years just for some silly outdated sense of "honor".

archive.org/stream/Decline-Of-The-West-Oswald-Spengler/Decline_Of_The_West#page/n19/mode/2up

>Divorce and all that garbage might happen, sure, but what’s at stake here is the continuity of the white race.
Why should I give a shit about that over my personal well being?

Odd how its all about continuing the white race when over 50% of said race is happy with progressivism and socialism. We have more traitors than enemies, so to speak.

This is why you whites will go extinct.
You outright refuse to place any blame on women and just accept them being shitty, childish psuedo-humans.
This line of thinking will be your downfall, and it'll be 100% deserved.

>Reading up on the MGTOW movement
It's not a movement.

>The main argument against MGTOW that I've encountered (on this board, largely) is that it is for whiny incels who can't get laid
That's not even an argument, it's just straight up social disapproval, people in general try to shame MGTOW into accepting a deal that benefits them or society, at the mans expense.

We already know that people don't approve, we just don't care.

>Now the dilemma arises, which is essentially that (white) men are screwed over both ways
No, you're confusing white men being screwed with the white race being screwed.

Actually white men do just OK. If any kind of collapse or overtaking by sheer numbers happens, it'll be long past our time. We can use the wealth we've amassed to simply move anywhere in the world we want. Marriage and raising kids to maturing costs hundreds of thousands of pounds. I'm investing that money so when the time comes I'll retire somewhere far away from the degeneracy.

>then his family lineage dies with him.
So what? No one actually cares about this, only a handful of ideologically possessed idiots. Men throughout the ages have had families because the family in of itself was reward enough. That's no longer true so it can be discarded.

You can't tell someone what to value, the argument for surviving genetic lineage isn't going to convince people who don't already value it, it's a non starter.

In the freakshow that is humanity, be a spectator, not a participant. MGTOW

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>And until you manchildren reclaim what is inherently yours, your masculinity, nothing will ever change and that I can guarantee.
Give one example of how a man might do this.

The point of MGTOW is mostly a practical one, don't get fucked over by a corrupt institution. The idea that you'd instead stick your neck out and fight the government and thats somehow a better deal for you, that's obviously stupid.

Men are just doing what everyone else are doing, responding to incentives, if marriage is a bad deal, then don't get married, pick whatever course in life gives you the most reward and the least risk.

>49% change my lifeworks resources taken away and beign mentally raped by having my offspring taken away

Yeah no thanks

Good women should be hard to find, and the fear of marrying a feminist-brainwashed woman who will steal your money and dignity will keep you searching for the truly loyal, loving woman you deserve. Once you have obtained a gf, you will need to examine her family, her friends, her hobbies, and not least herself - the clothes she wears, whether she's a virgin, and mental health (This is a huge issue among women).

Then, you will have to follow these two images:

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There is no unicorn, all women are parasitical at nature and chameleonts. They can adopt the viwes of a man in a heartbeat and play along as long as there is profit in the arragement. A man thinks he has found his soulmate and is shocked to the core when the woman leaves and shows her true nature. Only way to have a healty relationship with a woman is a culture that supresses her parasitic behaviour and in the west it is at the moment encouraged by the laws. Getting into a relationship with a woman in the west at the moment is like getting a blowjob from a poisonous snake

>The main argument against MGTOW that I've encountered (on this board, largely) is that it is for whiny incels who can't get laid and are fucking over the white race by not reproducing, inevitably letting the shitskins take over through sheer numbers. This makes sense, since men who swear off women entirely will therefore not marry or reproduce.

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>There is no unicorn, all women are parasitical at nature and chameleonts.
Because they have been brainwashed into thinking they can just disobey their father/husband and get away with it. "I can just marry someone else!". You need to find a woman who has been brought up by strict but loving parents, who have discouraged her from engaging in today's degeneracy, and have encouraged her to marry a good man and STAY married. Of course, there will be very few of that kind of woman, particularly in urban areas, but this is our best option.
>A man thinks he has found his soulmate and is shocked to the core when the woman leaves and shows her true nature.
Likely because he has treated her as an equal, and has simply catered to her desires instead of moulding her to compliment himself.

mgtow belongs to incels now
its time to ACTUALLY go your own way now

the whole main problem right now is

>men are shitty and no longer really good providers
>women followed suit and no longer are good women
>the dynamic between men and women therefore completely disintegrated

here is a nice view as to what it SHOULD be

youtube.com/watch?v=814eR5K7KD8

Which it never is anymore these days. But the main problem we face right now is that even if you make yourself into a good man, there wont be many women who are also good.

It's almost like we're all a bunch of barely functioning monkeys. Some of us more functioning that others.

Has it ever occurred to you that they're not brainwashed, and that this is just the way women are in their emancipated state? Women are free to behave on their natural urges and are doing so. They think they can disobey their fathers and husbands with impunity because they very much can, and women are very much who orchestrated that culture in the first place by manipulating thirsty men into it. You're putting pussy on a pedestal by ascribing benevolent motives to them when there is actually no evidence at all of benevolence motivating women, and to the contrary there is ample evidence that they are motivated by more nefarious things.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, tradcucks don't know a goddamn thing about women. They deal in specious rhetoric that upon closer examination falls apart everytime for being gynocentric trash that doesn't hold up to the collective wisdom that the manosphere is compiling. You are flat earthers, embittered clergymen enraged that Galileo is saying things about the universe you don't want to be true.

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>women are like dogs

already it starts off like some retarded rant, fun fact: most women cannot be tamed. Women have dopamine receptors just like the rest of us, they can get addicted to all sorts of stuff just like men can be. Going off from this base one can also see how subversion can pervert them just as hard as it can pervert men. Women have a "human" quality of functioning independently just like most men have. Which is why in the past good families used to give them education on how to cook, how to play piano, how to have proper mannerisms etc.

WOMEN WHO ARE SHIT CANNOT BE TAMED. They even have their innate rebellious nature that is unique to women. Namely to that of "over empathy" in which they give kindness and love even to your enemies. They go bonkers and off the rails like that. They give empathy to foreign soldiers who come here (ISIS immigrants) to niggers, to rottweilers...to pretty much everything that may want to kill them. Because they are retarded like that.

There is little that can be done to fix these women if you are a good man. The best bet would be total genocide most likely. But what we will get is instead slow genocide instead as usual in civilization decay. Of both sexes.

Youre such a fucking idiot. You and anyone else who pushes this stupid fucking meme.

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ALSO TO ADD TO MY POST: THERE EXIST SUCH THINGS AS IQ DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SEXES

In order to potentially "tame" a woman you need to do subversion, and you would need to do subversion in the SAME way as you would do with males, through mass media, the same rules apply then. Which means that you should be of higher IQ than the females, and have good subversion skills still.

NOT MANY MEN ARE LIKE THAT. THERE ARE STILL MANY MEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM WHO ARE EQUAL IN IQ, OR LOWER IN IQ TO FEMALES. THEY CANNOT "TAME" A WOMAN LIKE THIS GUIDE MAKES IT OUT TO BE. So its not a very good guide for the general male population.

Er what? Men are not good providers? The west is most wealthy humans have ever been in the entire history of the planet and men still out earn women on average.

The problem has nothing to do with lack of good provision, the problem is that the government provide everything women need, they've been given the rights to do whatever they like on a whim and zero responsibilities.

So on the marriage front they were given no fault divorce, the ability to divorce a man and take all of his stuff with zero consequences for herself. And with sex they have the pill where they can fuck around all they like without consequence of a baby. And if they do get pregnant then there's abortion.

This all comes back to one thing, the state. Women can and do vote in degenerate policies and laws, and the state enforces them. You can argue back and forth about why men go their own way and if women are inherently degenerate and whether AWALT or not, but it doesn't matter. We used to have the structure in place so that it didn't matter if she was really a cunt or not, there wasn't this huge risk hanging over you. So if she cheated for example, she'd get nothing and basically be homeless and tainted goods.

Women can be bad, that's fine, but what you also need is a mechanism to discourage them from being degenerate and also a mechanism that protects the man if she is. Both of those things have been subverted by the state. It always comes back to big government interfering in the family unit, every time.

Not an argument

>muh loss aversion
>muh reliance on gut feelings and faith instead of hard data
Or it could also lead to the saving of the White Race.

bump

What can be done then? How do we stop them from acting on their natural urges?

you cant start a trad family on the foundation of feminism. only after the collapse can things go back to the old ways

tame women.... LOL

You punish them for it.
Literally no other way.
And not on a case-by-case basis, on a societal level.
Whites used to know this like the rest of us, but western culture has eroded their natural instincts.

How did your ancestors do it? And besides, what does it matter? Obviously, if men were still serious about curbing female destruction, we would impose strict penalties on the urges deemed destructive. But this is all fantasy because that's not going to happen in your lifetime. Our civilization is in the final decadent stage of its decline, and if you're a student of history you shouldn't be at all surprised to find feminism as a star role in that decline.

A future generation of men who won't be pussies like this one will put them back in line, likely after they face the hardships of collapse. You take upon yourself a burden that isn't even yours.

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Your race doesn't matter, only yourself matters in the end. If you want to single handedly save the white race for some reason (I don't know why, the vast majority of any race is fucking retarded) go for it.
I personally would rather exploit people for economical benefit so you don't need to be a wagecuck and constantly work for the rest of your life. I don't know the meaning of life but it certainly isn't to work.
You want a real life red pill? Learn how to manipulate people. (This one thing will help in anything you do, friendships, careers, relationships.)
I also don't mean steal money from friends and family, I mean work for a short period of time and then use your brain to acquire money by using the money you've earned so that you don't need to work and your money works for you.

You want to go back to traditional lifetime marriage structures?
1. Only allow birth control to be sold to married couples.
2. Make superannuation illegal.
3. Make it illegal for unmarried women to earn above a certain annual income.
4. Bring back religion. Atheism is too popular nowadays.

That's really all you gotta do. Plus remember to be just as harsh with husbands who cheat as wives who cheat.

>warm you much when she divorce rapes your ass
GET A FUCKING PRENUP YOU SLIME!!
AND STFU.

>(((they)))
Jews who created Fagbook and Jewgle contributed to the American economy and enforcing American influence way more than the good part of useless aggressive Jow Forums anti-Semites.

The fact that you call doughnuts donuts and colour color says a lot about your innate laziness and stupidity. No wonder that hard working Jews do things while you only whining and seek scapegoats.

I hope Jews make you anti-Semites rot in your own piss.

Bans on things don't work, you just create black markets for them.

The way to end this mess is to repeal the power of the government, not give it more power to interfere in the family unit.

Men are providers, remove the welfare state and women who want children will have to rely on good providers. Remove state subsidized childcare. Remove minimum wage.

Repeal child support laws, the children should goto the parent best capable of supporting them during splits, if a woman leaves and takes the children the man shouldn't have to pay for them.

Repeal no fault divorce, alimony is just another wealth transfer from men to women through state power, alimony should only be required if there's evidence marriage vows were broken (infidelity, etc)

You'll note all of those things involve decreasing the size of the government, not creating more laws.

Your suggestions also allow for situations where women are forced to stay in a potentially shitty marriage where the man has all the power. So it's also best to think of a safety net for those kinds of situations, if you want to do all those other policies you mentioned.

A prenup doesn't protect you when children get involved.

Nope, take away their voting rights.
Or just get rid of giant government, but they will vote it right back (or force their white knights to do it for them).
Take away the State they use to bludgeon everyone else into doing their bidding, remove the government who uses them for social engineering, and you've taken a good portion of their power.

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>Your suggestions also allow for situations where women are forced to stay in a potentially shitty marriage where the man has all the power.
The man should have all the power.
Giving women any power is for cucks, and results in the downfall of society.
See: literally any white country

>Nope, take away their voting rights.
Sure, do it.

What's wrong with paying to feed YOUR kids you dumb fuck?!

>forced to stay in a potentially shitty marriage where the man has all the power
How so? If there is evidence of a shitty marriage, it's not 'no-fault.' There can still be divorce but it has to be something the couple tried to work on and one or both shit it up.
I can see someone owing child support if they're a terrible parent and shouldn't be around kids but the one with custody can't afford them.

Women have married the government instead of men who love them, because the gov lets them fuck around and ruin their capability for fidelity with no serious consequences. It's a lazy and terrible society for familial strength.

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No, women can still divorce if they want. They just can't take the children and all the mans assets with her as default.

What it does encourage is women selecting men carefully, who have proven their virtue and commitment to them. Ending the dating scene where women are going after the bad boys because it makes their vaginas tingle, and instead being responsible and picking responsible men. Marriage vows until death do us part were there for a reason, marriage is supposed to be final, it's a commitment.

In turn this limits access to sex to men who behave responsibly and are good choices for women, so it sorts out male degeneracy straight away, they have to work hard to prove themselves.

The problem with safety nets is that while they make disasters slightly less horrible, they also encourage people to make bad choices in the first place, because they have all of the rights and none of the responsibilities. Anything you make a safety net for whether it be divorce, unemployment, healthcare, you ALWAYS get more degenerative behaviour.

What's wrong with leaving YOUR kids with the parent paying to feed them you dumb fuck?!

>reddit spacing

Anyway, the issue is that as long as feminism exists in the West and women have the same rights as men, the white race is doomed, 100%. If you want to make marriage and families great again, put women back in their place. The quickest and surest way to do that is through a bloody civil war: it won't even take a month before the strong, independent career women who have been empowered by decades of feminist policies will start begging men for protection and return to their roles of wives, mothers and and home carers.

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Well obviously it probably won't happen without a huge catastrophe to bring down the system and be re-built.
Women and gov social engineers are tightly intertwined and promote each others' agendas.
Women promise the government/bankers/elite power, they promise women 'rights,' sexual liberation, and the power to force people to give them their way.
Gotta get rid of big gov stepping in to take the big club out of womens' hands (although they can still use sex to push around white knights).

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>Repeal child support laws, the children should goto the parent best capable of supporting them during splits, if a woman leaves and takes the children the man shouldn't have to pay for them.

This is so fucking painfully obvious it kills me
>can’t take care of your children without financial aid?
You are a fucking unfit parent.

Now if the breadwinner refuses to take the children then whatever, figure something out through child support.

revolution is the third position

If she can't afford to feed them then why the fuck should be the one to keep them stupid fuck?

I'm talking about allowing men to cheat on and hit their wives.

>If there is evidence of a shitty marriage, it's not 'no-fault.'
Prior to the allowance of no-fault divorce, it was very difficult for the women to prove the man was hitting her. He had to be present with her when she went to court, etc.

I live in a country where if my wife cheats on me and we have no kids she is still entitled to my wealth. No thanks. I work out, travel, bang 20 somethings and love life.

I'm not opposing that.

>but what if that makes it advantageous or the woman to not divorce for no fucking reason
Well, that would be just terrible.

Cheating is shit, but nothing wrong with hitting a woman when she gets out of line.

>
Specifying that money is "for child support" also doesn't guarantee that is what she will use it for.

Most divorces aren't because of abuse. It's the #10 reason
>marriage.com/advice/divorce/10-most-common-reasons-for-divorce/
Women are also as or more likely to be the abuser depending on the study and situations
>latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-young-sorenson-male-domestic-abuse-20180222-story.html

No one should cheat or abuse, but women do these things as often as men do. No group should be allowed to abuse the law or government in their favor

>MGT*W
>Dilema
There is no such thing unless you're a faggot, because if white women are already degenerate by a great percentage, then by leaving the only "good", nondegenerate percent die by themselves or drown in the system it will only make things worse for all of us because only white women can have white babies and lose them is just like accepting defeat to the kikes. Claiming all women are degenerates, it's fallacious and an overgeneralization that can easily be proven wrong, the real answer is to lower the age of consent to that of women actually hitting puberty; women are followers, if we don't teach them (((they))) will.

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i find solace in the fact that even the spartans only perished because of their feminist laws and women ended up with all the property after the men fell in battle. stifling their society in the long run.

i mean, we won in war against everyone that came, mostly against all odds. persians, phoenicians, huns, arabs, mongols, ottomans...

we won over not by manly wars, but by unhealthy optimism, the unhealthy cult of niceness and taking in tribal peoples in to a state with high-trust laws and where we gave the monopoly of violence towards it and these trickster bazar mindset migrants can only take kindness for weakness(which is essentially true).

so i take solace in it happening to perhaps the best as well(spartans). it being the gayest conquest ever, but then again also being the gayest defense ever....

Should add that I don't give a fuck why people divorce, they can legally do so, but the societal norm that makes it fine should not be encouraged.
People have so much trouble staying together because they ruin their pair-bonding ability by fucking around a ton and messing up their hormone-signaling reward pathways. Then society tells them 'oh just get rid of him/her, they're not good enough for you, do what makes you happy now' even if it's bad for the kids or wasn't really THAT major of a problem.

You think those whores in that pic are good women because they use symbols and shit to attention monger incels who larp as white nationalists like you? Lol, what the hell man. You need to be more discerning.

>You think those whores in that pic are good women because they use symbols
Nah, the pic was just for attention

They’re not playing God in the slightest. Unless this technology is used for evil, there’s no use in abandoning it. Why lose decent genetic material at the whims of flappy holes? Between artificial wombs and cloning, the future could be quite bright.

Ahh, I gotcha. Have a good day my friend.

I still don't get why MGTOW won't seek for good women when they could at least try while "going their own way", the end result of a failed attempt = the original MGTOW purpose, so why not try and failing, that would only increase the chances of finding somebody of the right of the curve.

>Well obviously it probably won't happen
Bingo, so why pretend it's even an option?

I hear you. The cost of failure can be pretty heavy though, this is what most of them are trying to avoid. Divorce is extremely costly, especially when kids are on the hook.

Because lack of good women is only 1/2 of the problem. The other half is the governments ability to crucify the man should anything go wrong.

The risk/reward when 50% of marriages end in divorce and women initiate 80% of those divorces, it's too high.