Workers of Jow Forums, unite! Thread for leftist discussion. All branches of leftists are welcome, from Stalinists to Anarchists. Unite!
Essential reading material:
>marxists.org
>marxists.org
>marxists.org
Articles worth reading:
The Third World Cannot Bring Global Socialism
spectrerouge.com
Happy Birthday, Karl Marx. You Were Right!
nytimes.com
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
users.wfu.edu
haaretz.com
forward.com
twitter.com
You have to be 18+ to post here
Daddy Bat'Ko: youtube.com
Get Chan: youtube.com
Jason Unruhe: youtube.com
TheFinnishBolshevik: youtube.com
The Labour Theory of Value is a theory in the science of political economy to explain how the working class are exploited under capitalism and how capitalist society works. This article also explains such phenomena as wages, prices, and profits.Why is the labour theory of value important?
Capitalism is the stage in the development of human society characterised by class monopoly of the means of production, with wage-labour and commodity-production. (Also see What is Capitalism? and Why there are two classes.)
The Labour Theory of Value is central to an understanding of the economics of capitalism because capitalism is commodity production par excellence, and the Labour Theory of Value basically explains what fixes the value of a commodity. At one time there were rival theories of value, but now academic economics tends to deny the need for such a theory. All you need, they say, is a theory of price. We shall see, however, that prices cannot be explained without recourse to the concept of value.at all value is product of labour.
One conclusion we can draw from the fact that commodities consistently exchange for one another in fixed ratios is that all commodities must share some common characteristic to a greater or lesser degree. What? As articles of wealth all commodities share two characteristics: they are useful and they are products of human labour. Which of these could provide a standard? Some have suggested usefulness (or utility), but the trouble here is that the same article can be useful to a greater or lesser degree to a different person. Usefulness is a personal matter: a personal relation between the commodity and its consumer. So utility would be a changing; subjective standard and could not explain why commodities consistently exchange at stable ratios. We are thus left with commodities as products of human labour.
Unlike usefulness the amount of labour embodied in a commodity can be objectively measured : by how long it took to make it, for instance. However, all wealth, not just commodities, shares this characteristic of being products of human labour. What we want to know is how do commodities differ from other forms of wealth. Wealth, we know, only takes the form of commodities under certain social conditions, specifically when it is produced for sale. Similarly with labour (used-up human energy): under the same social conditions it becomes "value". Thus value is not something you can find in the physical or chemical properties of a commodity, for it is a social property, a social relation. However, as value only expresses itself in exchange, as exchangevalue, this social relation appears as a relation between things. This is what is behind Marx's writing about the "fetishism of commodities". Price is the monetary expression of value.
Labour, says the Labour Theory of Value, is the basis of value. But how does labour determine the value of a commodity? The value of a commodity, said Marx, is determined by the amount of socially necessary labour contained in it or, what is the same thing, by the amount of socially necessary labour-time spent in producing it from start to finish. Note that the Labour Theory of Value does not say that the value of a commodity is determined by the actual amount of labour contained in it. That would mean that an inefficient worker would create more value than an efficient worker. By socially necessary is meant the amount needed to produce, and reproduce, a commodity under average working conditions, e.g. average productivity, average intensity of labour. For instance, take the coal industry, assuming that the average output is about 43cwts. per man shift and there are approximately 230 pits in operation. In some of these output per shift will be above 43cwts. and in others below, but the value of the coal is not fixed by the labour of the workers at pits of either sort. Its value is the social average brought out by the market. This means of course that what is socially necessary is continually changing. The whole process of producing the commodity coal also includes the labour of workers outside the pits, who are producing materials necessary for coal mining.
>Workers of /bol/, unite! Bhread for lefbist Biscussion. All branches of lefbists are welcombe xDDDDDD, from Sbalinists to Anarbhists. Unibte xDDDDDD
Under capitalism nearly everything is a commodity, or takes the form of a commodity, is bought and sold. This qualification is necessary to counter the argument often advanced against the Labour Theory of Value that some things that are bought and sold either are not products of labour or sell at prices quite out of proportion to the amount of labour embodied in them, e.g. land and objects of art. Land, under capitalism, has a price which, in its pure form, is merely the capitalisation of its rent. Land has no value as it is not the product of human labour. Paintings and antiques are indeed products of human labour but are not really commodities because they cannot be reproduced; the concept of "socially necessary labour" therefore has no meaning with reference to such articles. One silly objection is: why is a lump of gold from a meteorite valuable, when there is no labour embodied in it? Actually, this is a confirmation of the Labour Theory of Value since its value is the same as that of gold produced under normal conditions. If gold were to regularly fall from the skies then its value would drop to what is needed to collect it.
Labour power as a commodity
Another thing that under capitalism takes the form of a commodity is labour-power (the ability of human beings to work, human energy). Indeed this fact is the basis of capitalism since it presupposes the separation of the producers from the ownership and control of the means and instruments for producing wealth. But there is one very important difference between labour-power and other commodities. labour-power is embodied in human beings who can think, act and struggle to get the best price for what they are selling. Otherwise its value is fixed in the same way as that of other commodities: by the amount of socially necessary labour spent on creating it and recreating it. The labour spent on creating a man's labour power is that spent in producing the food, clothing, shelter and the other things needed to keep him in a fit state to work. Thus the value of an unskilled man's labour-power is equal to about enough to keep him and his family alive and working. Skilled men get more because it costs more labour to produce and maintain their skills. When the worker finds an employer he is paid a wage, which is the price he is paid for allowing the employer to use his labour power for, say, 8 hours. Wages, then, are a special kind of price; they are the monetary expression of the value of labour-power.
Unpaid labour
The hell is this gay shit?
Labour-power has a peculiar characteristic. Because wealth can only be produced by human beings applying their mental and physical energies to materials found in nature and because labour (the expending of labour-power) is the basis of value, labour-power has the property of being able to produce and create new value. Let us assume that our worker's labour-power is worth 4 hours labour a day. After he has worked 4 hours does he stop? Of course not. Under his contract he must work for another 4. Since he is working in his employers' place, with his employers' tools, machinery and raw materials anything he produces belongs to his employer. Thus, in this case, the employer gets 4 hours free labour. This is the source of his profit, which he shares with his creditors as interest and with his landlord as (ground) rent (and with the State as taxes). So the source of all Rent, Interest and Profit is the unpaid labour of the working class.
Labour Theory of Value (LTV):
Non arguments:
>If I dig a hole in my backyard and then fill it in I used labor but made no value! Commies BTFO!
Marx clarified (unlike adam smith) that only socially necessary labor (labor used to produce a commodity with use value) creates value. This is also the case if you spend 1000 years making a bed.
>Nature can create value as well. If an apple falls from a tree then value is created without labor
Marx also noted nature could create value.
>if labor determines price why is coca cola cheaper than bottled water?
Labor doesn't determine price. It determines value (not exchange value or use value) and correlates with the equilibrium price.
Machines cannot create value. If I make a machine that makes diamonds out of thin air then the value of a diamond falls below that of bricks now that they can be aquired with no work what so ever. Price might not fall because you can still manipulate supply and demand but value certainly does.
Some definitions.
Use value = How useful an object is.
Exchange value = Market value of a commodity. Different from use value. You can sell a beanie baby for 200$ but it is almost completely useless.
Value = the amount of congealed labor withing a commodity.
Some evidence of the LTV
users.wfu.edu
/lefty/ general is a space for leftist discussion and camaraderie. We are a collection of anarchists, NazBols, Stalinists, Marxists, Leninists, etc. all looking to bring the voice of the working people to Jow Forums.
>/lefty/ general
>NazBol
Wut.
NazBol is a subset of Stalinism.
Care to explain? Also what do you think of this guy?
There's far more Bol than Naz in NazBol. Stalin's Socialism in one country and National Bolshevism are the same ideas using different words.
Trotsky is controversial, entryism has worked in the UK and is working in the US with Sanders, but his betrayal of the workers state, the USSR is unforgivable imo.
The absolute state of "communists"
Communism is Jewish and therefore anti-White.
Bolshevism is Jewish and therefore, anti-White.
What you commies views on religion?
>Communist are le jews
Weren't they atheist though?
Religion is a tool used to keep the proletariat in place. An 'opium of the people' if you will.
>Weren't they atheist though?
Jews are a race.
>Religion is a tool used to keep the proletariat in place. An 'opium of the people' if you will.
Communists want to destroy race, heritage, history, culture, tradition and faith. Basically everything that makes humans human. Because Communism is a Jewish construct.
I'm just gonna say it: There's nothing wrong with being Jewish.
>not knowing that Jews are a race
>I'm just gonna say it: There's nothing wrong with being Jewish.
Well you're anti-White so of course you'd say that.
>Jews are a race.
Proof?
What do you think of Antifa? Are they true revolutionist?
>Proof?
DNA Links Prove Jews Are a Race, Says Genetics Expert
haaretz.com
Jews are a Race, Genes Reveal
forward.com
This thread makes me hungry.
Why do leftists want to destroy the white race?
>Why do leftists want to destroy the white race?
Because the White race threatens their power structure. The Leftists can control the non-Whites easily enough, but if the White race breaks free of their control, they're dead.
Whites are often the most anti-comm. Whites can live in communism (I am white myself) but we acknowledge that the revolution will not be fought by a white man. We don't want to destroy the white race, but the anti-comm tendency of whites must be mitigated, if by migration then so be it.
>Whites are often the most anti-comm.
Because Whites aren't the dupes you Judeo Communists want us to be.
>(I am white myself)
You're not White. You're a race traitor. Also, Jews aren't White.
>We don't want to destroy the white race,
Yes, you do.
If you're looking for a good show to watch check out Backyard Radio with hosts Ancapistan, Jeffstiny, Diogenes, and Analvape. They are very pro-gay and pro-tranny. Two of the hosts are actually dating men in drag. Very liberating shit.
>We don't want to destroy the white race,
McCarthyism was thoroughly successful in the US sadly.
Antifa aren't a coherent group or ideology. They're just counter-fascist. Anyone can start their own antifa cell and it can be any ideology that isn't fascist. They tend to be anarchist or syndicalist though.
McCarthy was right. The Commies did infiltrate the media and the education system.
>Antifa are anarchist
Then why do they rely fundings from George Soros? If they were true anarchist/communist they would get their fundings from bank robberies, kidnapping, or maybe hacking. Just like m-19 or the Bolsheviks
How does your "Dictatorship of the proletariats" system works?
get in
They're not. Maybe one group somewhere is, that wouldn't matter because they don't corroborate. But I've never seen any evidence they are. You don't understand the far-left. We don't like George Soros. Ask yourself, why would this big neo-liberal capitalist support the people who want to overthrow him? One reason: to de-radicalize them.
If you're that adamant he does, why not just start your own antifa cell, get Soros funding and then funnel it into fascist activity?
Why do leftists love to drink piss?
Based
Umm, sorry sweetie, looks like you're going to have to ask your boss to get you a new helicopter honeybun
PLOT TWIST: It's an Autogyro, not a Helicopter.
>We don't like George Soros.
Yet you love Jews and you're as anti-White as the Jews...go figure.
>It's an Autogyro
At least you righties are refreshing your stale memes
Communism is Jewish and inherently anti-White. When the race war starts, you'll hang right next to the Jews you love so much, commie.
Well, there's no answer to that. I guess you love "jews" as well since you support Trump and his blood lineage is now Jewish.
He is also a Neocon and a Rino
>I guess you love "jews" as well since you support Trump and his blood lineage is now Jewish.
I don't support Trump. He's a degenerate Zionist liar. Just because someone is on Jow Forums and doesn't fly your anti-White meme flag doesn't mean they unconditionally support Trump.
>anti-white meme flag
You're right, I don't agree with whiteness as a concept. Its nothing more than a power hoarding scheme. I stand with the proletariat whatever colour they are.
>You're right, I don't agree with whiteness as a concept.
Even though race exists, race matters and soceity is a racial construct.
>. Its nothing more than a power hoarding scheme.
Yeah...how dare Whites have our own countries where we benefit from our own work, right?
>I stand with the proletariat whatever colour they are.
In a White country you want to turn anti-White and non-White.
Funny how you refuse to move to a non-White third world country and promote your Jewish revolution there huh?
No it doesn't. All evidence points to the contrary. Race was invented because of imperialism, not science. Genetics weren't even discovered until 100 years after race theory.
>Yeah...how dare Whites have our own countries where we benefit from our own work, right?
Yeah, how dare you. And you don't "benefit" from your own work, your boss does. Also, you're never going to have a white nation, because if you truly isolated yourself, you wouldn't be able to benefit from imperialism and resource theft from the third world and your white nation would collapse.
>In a White country you want to turn anti-White and non-White.
I don't give a shit about your countries I'm an anarchist, or whether the people living have white skin or not. Its not skin reflectance I care about, it the concept of whiteness and how its used as hierarchical tool.
>Funny how you refuse to move to a non-White third world country and promote your Jewish revolution there huh?
Err...We have? Fucking numerous times? What do you think the cold war was about? The only large extant anarchist (or at least founded on anarchist principles) states are in fucking places where POC live, in North Syria and Mexico.
>LE COMMUNISM
how do I know that you aren't working and want to live on welfare
you don't even have fashion you fucking commies
bumping for your brainwashed controlled ideology
how retarded must you be to think that communism can ever work
>hurr it's never been tried before
please starve just yourself to death. you don't even need for the commies to take control to get this real, commie-like experience.
welfare is capitalist
t.boomer
Yea that was kind of my first understanding yet it goes farther. Imagine anyone who makes more then 200k in a year pays every thing to the government to support universal income then those people make no products and provide no services. While the system limits the majority of the population from succeeding and turns the other part into parasites there are a few that are above the laws of government and use their power to gain huge amounts of wealth cuz really if its your job to enforce the laws why would you limit yourself. Its like running a horse race where all the other horses are leached to the gate and can't leave the starting point.
except it's not
it's a social aspect,the point is that welfare is pointless in communism since no one wants to fucking work for someone else twice
Benefit frauds are heros.
It has been tried before and it worked everytime. Without filthy capitalists and their violent evil we'd be colonizing space by now. The problem is communists and anarchists are too compassionate to their enemies.
>communists want to destroy spooks
There's something wrong with that?
Come the revolution, Trots get the bullet too.
KEKS
I'd fight next to Strasserists / Nazbols but unfortunately the rest of the "left" (false dichotomy but w/e) reviles them so I don't see it happening
>>>>>Unruhe
okay now I just think you're trying to make lefties look bad lel
Can you please just get rid of black people? I don't care about anything else kthx
>muh based ecelebes!!!
lol the state of leftypol shills.
So where did you come from before Jow Forums. Was it /leftypol/ on 8ch? Reddit?
cringy thread you have done
the left just can't meme
Get outta here, filthy commie.
Post nazbol anime girls pls
bump
What are you going to solve with your communism? Other than the too many people problem.
If it wasn't for the Jewnited States, we would have taken Russia. You might have marched on Berlin, but you took over already dead army.
Soviets are gay and so is communism
And dont forget about the Fins!
Based.
I've always wondered that communism was just a counter culture movement against truth sayers with no sollutions or Direction. (brought to you by the (((Shills in power))) lel.) This thread confirms that.
Is this place very rigid in it's opinions and arguments? I've mostly been forming my ideas all but myself but I think I'd benefit strongly from being able to discuss them from someone who doesn't just see any argument for something they agree with as an attack on their team from the enemy team.
I can only get so far by myself but every other place is just so consumed by their squabbles. Getting real counter-arguments is necessary for me but if I just get perceived as the enemy in other places, I won't get any of that. Even though I'd consider myself left, just thinking that other things will be beneficial than what other leftisys think will make the ones in other forums just hate you.
I don't feel like arguing w/commies today.
>Anyone can start their own antifa cell and it can be any ideology that isn't fascist
>mfw I start my own reactionary/monarchist antifa cell
You can, they'd just fight you as well.
I'm on board with the economics. How do you leftists deal with the garbage social politics and degeneracy that most communists hold?
I just see myself as a bit left when I'm alone but don't have anything to do with the rest of the left who I see as destructive and will not only bring race problems but also end up fucking the working class. I think about stuff alone and keep hoping I can find reasonable people to discuss it with.