Most of life has been, and has always been in the oceans. Most of the world is ocean. Most the population of life is in the ocean. Life came from the sea to the land much later.
So why did intelligence begin on land when in probability it should have begun in the sea?
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Have you ever tried starting a fire underwater?
There's a reason we're trying to get to mars rather than explore the depths.
Beware the Mermen.
The creature in your pic is intelligent itself. Cephalopods are intelligent as well.
If you mean just humans, there is probably no reason, though I have seen people argue that technology could not really emerge properly underwater.
The precursors to cetaceans were terrestrial, my man. You should probably ask /sci/ though.
>He still doesn't realise the earth is flat and mars only exists as a light in the sky and CGI from NASA.
Did it though? Who knows. People PRETEND to know stuff. Mostly it gets changed after a couple of years because it's wrong. The absolute of today is tomorrow's spent theory.
By intelligence you mean CIA right?
I don't believe there is enough oxygen in the water to allow for brain to develop bigly.
It doesn't mean intelligence didn't happen underwater.
a street dog is smarter than your pic
Dolphins are literally the most intelligent species on the planet. Humans come 3rd. Shocker!
How would intelligence do an organism any good in the ocean?
you don't have to be intelligent underwater
you just open your mouth and the food goes in
try the same on land and see how far you come : DDDD
>you just open your mouth and the food goes in
>try the same on land and see how far you come : DDDD
but thats what your mum did with me last night lmao
magnesium flares are great
No, doggos are great companions but their subservience is often mistaken for intelligence.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Looks comfy
lol : DD
It kind of goes back to the question of why human intelligence arose - dolphins and apes aren't terribly far off IQ-wise.
I've read a number of theories, but my favorite is that tool use and human IQ/brain size coevolved. Fundamentally, it is easier to fabricate tools on land, due to the mechanical properties of wood and stone, as well as the large marginal advantage of hunting with spears instead of teeth and claws. Furthermore, decreased resistance of air means that bipedal locomotion becomes viable, allowing for alternative, tool-based uses of upper limbs.
Cephalopods get around the bipedal issue, but then again run into the problem of not being social, another key feature of intelligent species. Frankly, I'm not sure why some form of social cephalopod didn't evolve and take over the ocean.
you monkeys are extraordinarily egotistical and ignorant
because the tools kept sinking
and you, cephalopods, are way out of your depth here.
The most probably answer? Because God or whatever rolled the dice wanted this way.
Read a real biologist genius, Steven J. Gould to make this point clear.
Good answer. Still doesn't nail it. Fire produces the phenomenon which allows different metals to be processed. But we've gone through bronze and iron ages, what about simple architecture, like cave art or stonehenge.
Why isn't there sea creature organisation? Sea creature cities? Sea creature idea of economy? Sea creature interest in building anything? They remain eternal animals and nothing more.
>tfw not a big brain octopus
God threw a colossal tantrum until he got what he wanted
>Waterniggers
Hands and fire. Then social activity skyrocketed human intelligence.
There are some other important things but those are the primary reasons.
We of the octopus society scoff at you dirt swimmers.
> the problem of not being social, another key feature of intelligent species
Agreed.
> I'm not sure why some form of social cephalopod didn't evolve and take over the ocean
Their reproduction strategy is their downfall.
After the female has been fertilized, it finds a place under a rock and lets itself starve, without moving from the "nest", so its offspring can survive. Since the male is solitary it won't help the female survive hunger.
Sad.
Cooking with flames allows digestion to take on a more advanced form. And the changes to the food, as well as animal fats and proteins and other things, allowed humans to evolve so rapidly.
dolphins and whales are a meme
I don't read faggotry wikipedia opinion pages edited by anybody
You forgot shrooms.
Because behaviors rule extreme environments. You have to have non-extreme environments to cultivate delusional intellect.
They were, relataed to cows or something.
struggle demands intelligence for survival
the harsher a climate, the more intelligent life must be to survive in it.
the ocean is full of life, and thus full of food for everything living in it. outside of being eaten yourself, your envirnonment is pretty safe and stable and obtaining food requires no special trick or function, you just swim till your senses find food and then you eat it while avoiding the things that want to eat you.
living on land is much harsher. first: it is infinitely harder to travel on land than it is to swim. walking and climbing require a balance far beyond swimming. your environment can also kill you in infinitely more ways: thirst, freezing, heat, precipitation, storms, and fires all require more intelligence to overcome.
the smartest ocean animal is the dolphin, and its a lazy rapist.
I dont think shrooms have had a generational effect
Dolphins evolved from a terrestrial ancestor, though
Oceans tend to lack dynamic challenges that force the creatures to adapt, what challenges do exist are usually solved by swimming somewhere else with the only hazards being predators. Evolution takes a different set of roads if problem solving isn't necessary, instincts and urges suffice for most species so intelligent life would tend to develop slowly in oceans when compared to land.
We've truly only explored like 5% of the ocean floors. Who's to say there isn't an sophisticated underwater society? Maybe not as technologically advanced, but sentient in its own respect?
Still, it's not like reproductive strategies can't change. There's plenty of K selective species underwater, it's not unreasonable to imagine them starting to exhibit greater parental care. Ultimately, it remains a neat what if sort of scenario. Imagine a civilization of sentient, social octopi, slowly exploring the landmasses of the world, marveling at the glory of elephants and lions much like we admire whales and sharks. Fun stuff.
These articles are actually quite good. Please don't simply dismiss it because it is wiki.
www.johnclilly.com
ecco
For the vast majority of our time on earth we have been Basically more like animals, civilization is definitely something impressive, but its very recent
You have heard people make truly retarded arguments.
Came here to say this. Fucking underwater dindus.
More variety in nutrients, enzymes, and stimuli.
Human IQ evolved purely to fuck over other humans.
All of the smart animals live in complex social groups. Solitary animals are kind of dumb.
Whales are highly intelligent and have names for each other.
you don't read science books either, go fuck your stafford user
Yes, in a "secured" lagoon, they(researchers) managed to create a space where octopussies can lay eggs and survive the whelping process, starting some sort of generational learning cycle.
It is fairly new so results have yet to come out.
Maybe nothing will happen.
Maybe it will lead to an evolutional breakthrough.
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Exactly. Well said
BASED
> Webbed fingers
Terrible for dexterity
I have to agree fren.
>Whales are highly intelligent and have names for each other.
Name one.
I'm offended, faggot.
By your logic hermit crabs are undeniably the genius of the animal world.
This may surprise you but people aren't that bright.
People just have a written language. The safety of the land vs the ocean may also have played a role.
Lack of stable environment, unable to create metallurgy, no thumbs...
Fire allows for greater calorie intake so you can actually be sentient holy fuck you are a brainlet
>OP doesn't know about crab people
Too much of the brain is usually dedicated to moving in a 3 dimensional environment with exceptional ease, because sharks and shit to.
They don't need them. Dolphins are are super smart, but they never needed to develop cities because their food is everywhere they go. People developed cities thanks to the Agricultural Revolution. If we could just grab all the food we need out of the air, we wouldn't be in cities either
Yeah but if you can't manipulate your environment it doesn't matter how smart you are, you become victim to whatever natural forces come along, just like every other creature.
It's pretty obviously the same reason we don't see 1st world civilisations in Africa, there's little to no need to adapt to anything, to be quick thinking or do any long term planning underwater,
You need to meet to make civilization. Ocean is 3d, land is 2d. Probability of meeting other monkeys is orders of magnitude higher than that of meeting other carps.
120-145Db / 10-40Hz
Their "names" is in between these values.
> Group size changed frequently and a dramatic increase in vocalization rate resulted when a new whale entered a group
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And how you manipulate the ocean?
Also
youtube.com
You know how scientists are always clamoring about how we know more about outer space then we do our own oceans?
Maybe there is a fucking reason for that
1. The ocean sucks
2. Who wants to be around some faggy fish
3. Fuck salt
Let me explain to you something Jow Forums
We never need to explore our fucking oceans because theres nothing cool down there
So dont you go looking because your going to waste your time my time and humanities time
I dont understand why anyone would wanna go check out that bullshit
If you wanna get the same experience just go to the deepend of the pool or a pond and its the same exact shit just deeper
I repeat there is nothing cool in our unexplored oceans and aint nobody got time to find it out
That's not a name.... wait, wahhh?
Your impression is that fire came at the same time as cave art but in reality fire came way before anything you might describe as "human behavior", except picking up sticks and rocks and using them as tools (which is not the same as making tools). Gorillas and octopuses can pick up objects and use them as tools too.
Hence the quot' marks, blind mutt.
>social
>intelligence
The Pope wears a fish hat because the ancient teachers came from the sea. A smarter and more advanced species could hide from us indefinitely.
Dolphins and whales are fairly smart in the grand scheme of things. The big handicap is that ocean creatures can't live very long outside of the water. The dry land can sustain structure builders like humans and beavers because they don't have to have fins to move around. The human is quite an anomaly in the animal world. Its eyes face forward like a predator but it possess no natural weapons. Instead the human relies on being a crowd animal that reshapes its world for its own purposes. Smarter humans catch more prey or run bigger farms. The marine environment does not support the construction of complex dwellings the way the land does. Nor does it support much in the way of agriculture. Humans might be able to grow underwater sea crops but dolphins would have a hell of a time tending their kelp farms. (Points if anyone actually discovers Dolphins tending kelp farms to lure fish in.)
The dry land environment is more suited to the creation of complex flora cultivation.
wew lads, looks like Atlantis is on full damage control
>he doesn't own a telescope and is retarded
>evolution is a religion based on fradulent science
>there never has been any transitional fossils found thus proving that macro evolution is science fiction
Seriously, it's literally salt and shit. If the ocean was *so* cool and interesting, why the fuck did we explicitly evolve to leave the ocean and never possibly return to it?
Must be really fucking boring down there if millennia of evolution made us exclusively terrestrial.
Can't believe some niggers want to see what's down there. Spoilers: our ancestors already know and it was clearly not interesting enough for us to stay.
There is nothing cool down there, whatsoever. Just water and hot vents.
Brain is required but not exclusive to intelligence.
Octopi have small brains yet appear more intelligent because they have way of interacting with the world. Arms with digits are equally important as brain. Opposable thumbs are master race. Without interacting with world you remain dumb.
Not the same, still no tools.
You could lift them but the technological gap would make it unrealistic for them to fully understand it for eons. Tool creation and permanent manipulation of the environment is more important than poo plumes. Get over yourself hippy. Think practically.
Invertebrate nervous systems are much more efficient than mammalian.
I bet you think that fertilizer, agriculture, agroforestry and landscaping is not a practical.
Intelligence requires several different factors in order for its increase to be evolutionary viable. While yes it may appear that human-level intelligence and tool use are just de facto better than dolphin level or raven level intelligence, Human evolution was 'encouraged' in multiple ways that other species never were.
First off, the best evolutionary encouragement of intelligence is large social groups. If an individual spends a lot of time with many other individuals, and it is advantageous to remember larger and larger numbers of individuals in order to get ahead in the hierarchy or work together for whatever reason; then intelligence (specifically memory and empathy) will be selected for increase. Many animals with noteworthy intelligence already have this in their favor. Dolphins, elephants, apes, and of course humans. But not all. The octopus is very intelligent, but solitary and hostile to other individuals. This means that the part of intelligence that involves learning from others and working with others never is selected for.
But octopi are amazing problem solvers, which brings us to number 2: Object manipulation - or more specifically, limbs with that capacity. Hands, tentacles, beaks, and even noses, mouths, and sound waves allow an individual to explore the environment and create a tactile picture of it in their heads - which can be put to use to find food, store food, or break open tough to crack food. Ravens and octopi have had to develop brains that needed to figure out inventive ways to get at tough prey, dolphins had to use sound to coordinate pack hunting tactics against nimble fish, and apes had fingers that could make simple tools to get at both fruit and termites alike. Those who used their manipulator limbs better did better when it came time to fuck and have kids.
[cont.]
I thought it was because of the amount of oxygen required to fuel our large brains.
>Dolphins are smart
>Still get stuck in nets and shit
>Humans go to the moons and simulate entire worlds in a small box and create systems to wirelessly connect across the globe
You know how i know you're full of shit flipper shill?
Higher intelligence becomes really advantageous only with the ability to use tools and cooperate as groups.
The most intelligent sea creatures are mammals that went back into the water and octopuses.
Now the first need all their limbs for swimming and are now pretty much evolutionary stuck with a very limited ability for tool usage.
The second uses tools but doesn't live in groups to my knowledge.
I don't know how radical the changes to the octopus brains would have to be for them to become social animals but if it ever happens I'd call them the most likely candidate for second civilized species on the planet.
[cont]
Third, and very important, the 'wipe one's own ass' selector. A large and complex body can trap an individual in it, mainly by struggling to provide nutrition and not place oneself in a position they cannot get out of. Humans have small simple bodies that can do all sorts of feats of agility - but elephants cannot. Elephants cannot wipe their own ass, they cannot easily right themselves if on their backs, and are just too big in general to do anything other than graze and migrate all day. They're in an evolutionary culdesac, and one where getting smarter doesn't provide solutions.
Fourth is very basic. Nutrition and the physical challenges of intelligence. Brains are hungry buggers, and big brains mean big problems during childbirth. Humans managed to overcome these problems, but even then only by pushing our bodies to the absolute limit. The fact not all species even dared to try tells you something. Getting smarter is a huge risk.
And not just a risk to oneself, but one's environment and prey. It was no coincidence whatsoever that all the Ice Age megafauna died out soon after humanity entered the picture, and continue to die out today. Megafauna can only exist in conditions where size means everything and they have nothing but old age and disease to reduce their numbers. But small intelligent predators that could bring down megafauna with tools and tactics means the entire idea of being a huge herbivore no longer is viable. Equally non-viable is being even remotely a threat to an intelligent species, especially one with high empathy and complex social groups. Humans didn't tolerate wolves and european lions preying upon their children and livestock, and drove them to extinction/near extinction.
Humans and their enviromental consequences are the logical result of being intelligent. Our species is not a plague upon the biosphere nor out of step with nature, but rather the new normal. Species now are adapting to us, and thriving spectacularly.
>He unironically thinks humans have been to the moon
>He thinks dolphins getting trapped in nets refutes the argument of them being more intelligent than humans
Here's looking at you, kiddo. You prove my point.
Sea life had no equivalent to opposable thumbs
Actually octopuses. It's a huge clue that octopuses, of the humble phylum Mollusca, are actually more intelligent than some h. sapiens.
For civilization you need brains plus grippers.
Cause fish are stupid
youtube.com
A good example of this adaptation to humanity are crows in Japan dropping nuts at traffic intersections and waiting for red lights to collect the now broken nuts. Human civilization is not an unknowable mystery to less intelligent animals, and they can learn the logic behind our daily patterns. An issue certainly is that human culture changes too rapidly for evolution to catch up, but that just creates a preference for intelligence, adaptability, and the capacity to learn among city dwelling life.
Humanity itself is now a driving force in evolution. Species that get with our program do better than species that do not. The age of megafauna is over, things like deer will shrink in size and we'll see large predators disappear one by one, but there are great opportunities for things like crows, ants, coyote, bobcats, rats, rabbits, and falcons. New species will emerge, and likely many of them will be more intelligent than their ancestors. Not talk-y intelligent, but they have already begun to display a knowledge of traffic laws and metro schedules far above some actual humans.
I don't know if this is low quality bait or you're actually retarded.
LOL. It's obvious that YOU are retarded.
if it aint broke don't fix it.
Land dwellers faced more challenges in survival