Damn it, is Airbus right? Is the F-35 the wrong jet for the Luftwaffe?

F35 is chinese tier merchandise.

>Rafale? That is for poorfags.
My guess is upgraded Eurofighters... I mean it is Airbus which is telling us not to buy the F-35. Airbus makes Eurofighters.

I thought the Eurofighter project was dead?

I would go further. I would say this is an exact example of why we shouldn't be designing random aircraft with no firm deadlines or real world requirments.
The problem is that this thing from the start was designed as some pie in the sky "do everything" aircraft.
Other aircraft were designed with a specific task in mind, and with a need to be working right the fuck now.

I'm fine with Germany buying something else, it'll be easier next time we have to kick their ass to the curb.

You know. Airbus was solely created to be boeing's rival. It's probably on their company slogan.

defensenews.com/industry/2018/04/26/lockheed-tries-to-steer-clear-of-german-f-35-politics/
But Berlin officially favors an upgraded version of the fourth-generation Eurofighter ― built by a consortium of Airbus, Leonardo and BAE Systems ― as a replacement for the 90-strong Tornado jet fleet. The main argument is to keep European companies involved in building combat aircraft and, perhaps even more importantly, staying clear of disturbing Franco-German momentum in armaments cooperation.

Airbus Defence and Space chief Dirk Hoke told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper over the weekend that if Germany picks the American F-35, it would upend plans for the European co-development of a new-generation aircraft that would begin service sometime in the 2040s.

Crisler said Lockheed is working toward a per-unit cost of $80 million by 2020, at which point the global fleet will be roughly 50-50 in U.S. and international users. Company officials now aim to lower F-35 sustainment costs.

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>Jihadi uprisings in Turkey
Erdogan plays to the jihadists/political right in his country. If anything he'd start genociding the Kurds (more than Turkey already does) and we'll have German AT weapons blowing up German tanks while the world pretends its not happening because muh NATO ally.

With more of the (completely expected) bugs worked out, I hear that the pilots love this plane.

I'd say let German pilots fly it and see what they think. Ofc, their response may not provide you with the anti-Americanism you were expecting, so you probably won't take my advice, thus becoming more of a drag on us and NATO.

But there's a silver lining to every dark cloud--at least the jihadists won't be flying f-35s into our skyscrapers!

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Any other company handed a contract like this would have had it ripped away from them by now for failure to deliver on the contract they were awarded but we basically gave Lockheed a blank check, an unattainable or ridiculous goal, and said alright go have fun.

Like Germany has any choice.
They will be good goys and buy the F-35 from their American overlords, just like we did.

>I thought the Eurofighter project was dead?
It is alive and kicking.

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desu germany would be better off buying Sughois, lower per-unit price, lower maintenance, comfy russian design

>t. Lockheed Martin employee

Goymany can't even afford to service its Eurofighters, how will the afford to pay $10,000 per diaper to refill the shart protection system or the $100,000 per screw when the reinforced extra extra extra wide seat comes loose. They should probably just make friends with Russia, buy Sukhois so they can just leave them in a damp rusty hanger upside down for 20years and still flies fine when needed.

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Buying the F-35 is being ultimate America salve. You would undermine your own industrial capacity. I have nothing against the US but being a mindless slave is not what an European nation should strive for.

Please consider Gripen-chan!

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>Airbus advises germany not to buy competitor's planes and instead buy the ones made by Airbus

merchant.jpg

>easier than pressing a kill switch.

>Airbus was solely created to be boeing's rival.
Yes, so?

Airbus Industrie began as a consortium of European aviation firms formed to compete with American companies such as Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, and Lockheed.[6]

While many European aircraft were innovative, even the most successful had small production runs.[7] Factors favouring American aircraft manufacturers included: the size of the United States which made air transport popular; a 1942 Anglo-American agreement entrusting transport aircraft production to the US; and the World War II legacy of "a profitable, vigorous, powerful and structured aeronautical industry" in America.[7]

"For the purpose of strengthening European co-operation in the field of aviation technology and thereby promoting economic and technological progress in Europe, to take appropriate measures for the joint development and production of an Airbus."
Airbus Mission Statement[8]

By the mid-1960s, several European aircraft manufacturers had drawn up competitive designs, but were aware of the risks of such a project. For example, in 1959 Hawker Siddeley had advertised an "Airbus" version of the Armstrong Whitworth AW.660 Argosy,[9] which would "be able to lift as many as 126 passengers on ultra short routes at a direct operating cost of 2d. per seat mile."[10]

We should unironically buy from the russians and combine the EU military with the russian one.

If the future is drones, why spend this kind of money?

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The EF is the "Duke Nukem Forever" of fighter aircraft.

Yeah but at the same time, being a bitch of the EU and funelling billions into failed Euro projects that end up completely inferior to American counterparts isn't a really good move for any country's defense either.
It's all politics and economics shit.

Only 4 of their Typhoons are able to fly.

Should've bought our Rafales :^)

The thing is, Airbus is partially German. Lockheed is not German. Buying complex and vital military technology to foreign companies is akin to selling your sovereignty.

>My guess is upgraded Eurofighters

Make those you already have fly then. Barely 5% are combat ready.

This, tb.h. Make the software able to talk to the F-35, and roll your own jet. Besides, wouldn't an EU army need interceptors, for the most part? Help me out here militaryfags.

Why would anyone consider the low-cost option ?

The 35 is fine. At least the A and C variations. Pretty sure the B is a complete fucking shitshow. The thing that kills about this argument is that no one ever argues the munitions it will carry. The real argument is wether or not our next generation AA missles will be good or not. If cuda turns out to be as good as the 120 for its generation chinks and slavs are straight fucked.

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-Be Israel god chosen people.
- Launch a major air strike against Syria.
-Afterwards announce that an F35 has been damaged upon hiting a bird.
- Say: do not worry goyins, this accident occurred two weeks before the attack.
-Do not show pictures of the damaged airplane because it is "unnecessary".
-See the Russians' satisfaction in concluding that your new $ 1.5 trillion dollars stealth plane was been taken out of combat by a S200 60`s
technology missile.

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You only need jets to fly a friendly escort to planes which don't respond to traffic patrol.

For everything else they are becoming useless. Anti-air, hypersonic cruise missiles and drones are making them antiques.

We dodged a bullet when we got out of the Eurofighter programm and chose to develop the Rafale. I think bilateral agreements are the way to go for next big military programms.

>The problem is that this thing from the start was designed as some pie in the sky "do everything" aircraft.

The whole idea was to save cost by only having to design one aircraft instead of 3.
Which sounded like a good idea on paper.

I think the problem is by having nothing to compare it to (((Lockheed))) could freely drive up the price for extra profits so they did.

>wouldn't an EU army need interceptors, for the most part?

That's what the eurofighter is for.

airbus is a joke.

just got fucked over by the wto in a boeing dispute, ceo is being pushed out due to bribe shit, and now their cfo or coo is leaving too.

>Buying complex and vital military technology to foreign companies is akin to selling your sovereignty.
... funny... aircraft introductions since 2006 to the French airforce attached.

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Why would we even buy ANOTHER expensive weapons system and infrastructure for it?
Typhoon&Tornado are fine to bomb towelheads, available, faster and we already have infrastructure for them.

Also: Our budget is already too small for the current stock of jets, another one would result in cutting even more corners and make the Bundeswehr even more useless.

>Make those you already have fly then. Barely 5% are combat ready.
The reports that say we only can fly 4 out of 130 Eurofighters is a lie. We leak these reports so we can invest more money into the military.

Jealous old hags need not apply!

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And if the AA missiles turn out to be shit then it's a sitting duck.

Also if those missiles are so awesome why spend so much on a plane?
Just launch them from an F-16 and be done with it.

Here is a 9/10 weapon that we will sell to you for 5/10 prices. NOPE gonna build a 3/10 and pay 10/10 prices because sovereignty!
Well have fun with your under performing overpriced garbage.

Rafale is acctually pretty good, the reason it dosnt have manh buyer is due to its high price. With the gripen you get like 65% for nearly half the price so its not a bad choice for low budget militaries.

>airbus is a joke.
hahaha, funny

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if that missile meets 1/3rd of its engineering requirements, adversarial planes are proper fucked.

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They make better civilian planes than Boeing. The A320neo and the A350 are way better than the 737MAx and the 787. A321 transatlantic soon

How many AA nests can you build for a single F-35? How many supersonic drones can you put in the sky for the cost of a single F-35? BAE got the Taranis project from nothing to flying for less than the cost of a single production F-35 ...

Also what the fuck is an interceptor going to do about a hypersonic cruise missile? Which are the real threats. F-35s are the most expensive way to bomb goat fuckers and nothing else. They have fuck all to do with modern warfare.

I agree. Only after Lockheed adds the much asked for mechanical bird legs and beak system shall it be worthy. Only then will it truly be the 5th generation fighter. You can't just make a flying bird mech and put wheels on it and call it a day. You gotta go all the way.

Doesn't the Luftwaffe currently have only four combat ready aircraft? Sounds to me like you need every damn plane you can get your hands on.

>Also what the fuck is an interceptor going to do about a hypersonic cruise missile?

Fire a mach 4.5 missile at it.

thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4678/is-the-european-meteor-air-to-air-missile-really-the-best-in-the-world

Go ahead. unironically it will still be a smaller force than the us alone.

I didn't say France didn't have that problem.
Or you can make your own 9/10 plane that you will pay slightly more but you'll have sovereignty, aka the Rafale.
If tomorrow the US want to take down the RAF, they just have to stop sending them parts.

>Doesn't the Luftwaffe currently have only four combat ready aircraft?
Nope. We have a total of 425 aircraft in the Luftwaffe, around 80% are combat ready.

It is a different matter how many Eurofighters comply with all form requirements for a NATO deployment, including the latest software updates. One report at some point (before the software update), only had 4 additional planes ready to be deployed (in addition to 6 already deployed Eurofighters).

But as to combat ready, it is between 75 and 80%.

>most expensive way to bomb goatfuckers
Nope, that was the F-104 "Starfighter", costed about a few million Mark and a pilots live per year.

I'd rather have 100 mach 4.5 missiles to fire from the ground than the single one from the F35, it's not like that F35 can cover useful distance towards the threat.

The F35 just eats up the money you could spend on a proper defence, it's not fast enough to get the AA missile close to the threat.

>tfw you only outsell boeing cause your company is corrupt

washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/trade-body-eu-still-providing-illegal-subsidies-to-airbus/2018/05/15/40c7468c-5856-11e8-9889-07bcc1327f4b_story.html?utm_term=.d9bd4a1e1c19

>tfw your management is shit and your executives keep leaving
reuters.com/article/airbus-management/airbus-finance-chief-wilhelm-to-leave-company-in-2019-idUSASO0004P7

>tfw boeing is about to buy embraer

They have like a 128 EF-2000 the problem is not actual buying of planes but maintaining them and keeping them combat ready. It would be pointless for germany to buy any new airplanes without increasing there budget and fixing their maintinance issues. A airplane is uselss if you cant afford to keep it flight worthy

We will have 0 combat ready JSF's.

Shit is too expensive so all we can do is fly training missions.

>ending your chart in 2010. I wonder why . . .

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only way to really conclude what is best is to have a classified, yet unrestricted fly off. No fucking pretend ROEs. No regenerations, no simulation beyond munitions.

Gripen is too cute to resist.

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I hate to admit it, but this user is right. For the amount of sheckles invested, we should have gotten si much more. The thing is a bloated money sink and a satire of where 5th gen should have gone.

>The F35 just eats up the money you could spend on a proper defence

Yes, and if you don't have a proper defense (like most Euro nations), the F-35 (nor any bleeding-edge fighter) should be very high on the list. Russia is doing the smart thing by concentrating on defense. Euros should do the same while re-tooling their relationship to the outside world (ie NATO, China, etc).

Raise defense capability while scaling back expectations until the two meet somewhere between.

Your chart says that Airbus' market share will go to 36% until 2025 vs. 40% for Boeing.

I assume this is not just large commercial airliners but also utility aircraft and small aircraft? It is interesting how these projetions think Bombardier and Embraer are going to be btfo and the Chinese and Russians won't sell shit until 2025.

Why so salty my friend
The only reason people buy your plane is patriotism. We win every single market except America (and Africa kek).

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Thats because you fuckers thought you could use a dedicated high altitude interceptor as a dive bomber. Blame the warplanners not the plane. However i will acknowledge that the downward firing ejection seat on early models was stupid.

They weren't handed a contract lmao, they beat out the boeing design. Do none of you even know why the f35 was designed in the first place?

>and the Chinese and Russians won't sell shit until 2025

2025 is only 7 yrs away. Unless they have great ideas with potential customers lined up right now, then they won't make that deadline, no.

lol

>muh 4 year old plane has more orders than your 2 year old plane

France education everyone

>>most expensive way to bomb goatfuckers
>Nope, that was the F-104 "Starfighter"

Wouldn't the most expensive be shooting them from a Zumwalt-class destroyer?

A single LRLAP shell costs about $900.000

bombardier and embraer are going to be swalloed up by airbus and boeing, respectively. In general, the defense industry is conglomerating and commercial will follow suit

That readiness rate is BS and you know it. It was widely acknowledged that the luftwaffe only has 4 of its 128 EF2000 combat readyamd only 37 total fit to leave the ground at all. Heck the bundeswere had to force retire a bunch of helicopter pilots recently because they didnt have the money to pay for them to keep there certificatations.

*teleports behind you*
*shoves AMRAAM up your ass*

Attached: F35Direct_PR.jpg (1920x1125, 181K)

It was mainly said ejection seat and fucked hydraulics wich often resulted in flame-outs and loss of controll.

>common core math
We started selling the a320neo in 2010, you started selling the 737 max in 2011. That's not 4 years.

most european cunts are struggling to keep their fleets airworthy so they should settle for whatever is easiest to maintain, grippen or mig?

>900.000$ shells
What the fuck, and I was thinking the Sondergeschütz E was a waste of ressouces and costed too much to fire.

>>common core math

FWIW, the math part of common core is great--it's the only good part about common core. Only complaints are from brown parents who can't figure it out.

People take these planes for granted but the amount of fucking tech and engineering put into these things never ceases to amaze me.

The only reason you bought F35s to begin with, is that those nukes on Volkel fit underneath American planes only.

The main NATO objective for the Dutch airforce has always been, and will always be, dropping nuclear bombs on the Russians.

I wonder what they would have gotten by investing that money in an unmaned aricraft. Only by removing the pilot and life support the airplane gets 30% lighter. Without a fragile human inside it can make 10g curves effortlessly. If you lose it, there will not be single mother widows crying on TV and demanding to end all wars.

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*flies up behind you*
*fires cannon*
>nothing personall, kid

That's not what I read
independent.co.uk/student/news/parents-criticise-us-common-core-maths-after-third-grade-pupil-told-solution-for-55515-is-incorrect-a6711736.html
The internet probably exagerate things but still. I doesn't sound really good.

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Grippen would better suit Euros, the thing is 50% US hardware anyway and is ready made for NATO use. Integration with US/NATO systems is one of the big priorities in euro defence procurment and systems integration is not somthing the EF-2000 was planned around

>akin to selling your sovereignty.

eu members should be used to that though

Pssst.
You're not supposed to know this.

Yes, because the Rafale is better is every aspect

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wtf? Whats the logic behind that pic?