Why is Jow Forums so much against the idea of wealth redistribution?

1.)
>I'm no communist by no meaning but, why won't you agree that the poor needs to be helped and the resources for that are in the claws of the greedy rich ones

is an inherently communist sentiment

2.) Redistribution requires some sort of organizational body to facilitate it, the only thing that gives the government legitimacy is the fact it has a monopoly of legal interpretation, enforcement of laws, and ability to exert force, therefore having a government being the one to facilitate wealth distribution translate to it being not voluntary - but a hostile action. If you don't give your money, a man with a gun will show up and either put you in jail or shoot you with impunity.
3.) Just because there is a government body redistributing wealth, does not mean it will have the desired effect, be efficient, or will be less corrupt than being handled by a private organization.

They are greedy because they are rich?

I'm not for wealth redistribution. I'm for collectivised production because this whole system of capital needs to be destroyed.

All the people saying you're a communist are wrong. You're not. You're just a faggot.

cringy larp shit

Free markets help the poor more than any redistribution ever could.

Now fuck off commie and learn some basic fucking economics before spewing this horse shit, for FUCKS SAKES.

There are a combination of reasons on why such a thing could be dangerous.

First, there is a theory in Economics that if you were to redistribute all the wealth in the world equally then in a matter of years wealth would become concentrated again in the hands of a few, you see this throughout nature - nature has an innate goal for hierarchy and no amount of big government is going to stop it, there will always be inequality both socially or economically or for any other matter. Overall then, redistributing money by taxing the rich more wont do anything, the rich will still get richer and the poor will still get poorer.

Secondly, it will cause massive inflation so that redistribution the wealth would actually be useless, it would just cause the currency to lose value, decrease purchasing power, and thus the poor will remain poor as they can only buy the same goods and services they could buy before wealth redistribution. Many leftists don't understand why this causes inflation just as raising the minimum wage too fast will do the same, it's not some magical event that happens, it's because much more people will have more money and thus buy more (demand increases) but the supply will remain constant or stagnate to meet the demand thus prices will increase.

So, there you have it. Social Darwinian theory also backs the first point - remember that - no matter how much you try, nature will always have a hierarchy, there will always be a 1% who are more powerful than you - even in Communist societies, even a society without money, even in a 'utopia', and that's just the price of life as not all men are born equal - a harsh fact that many cannot accept.

Sorry user, we must accept it and move on.

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You are a fucking retard.

You act like people with wealth just have it sit their in a pile like Smaug or Donald Fucking Duck. That's fucking retarded and inflation would ruin them. The invest the money in diversified securities for a return (or a loss).

Get a fucking clue you communist retard.

Wealth isn't a fixed pie or a zero sum game, this has been known since at least the 15th century, I suggest to brush up on your economics, moron.

Personally I think that some level of welfare system is desirable if (and only if) you live in a monoethnic society bounded by a strong religion. Society requires love towards your neighbor, and welfare is a good way to materialize such concept without turning your nation into a capitalistic degenerate shithole.

>why won't you agree that the poor needs to be helped
They have help available. They can collect state assistance, job training and help with procuring employment. It may be a grind at first, but you have to start somewhere like all of us did. There are plenty of options before we get into commie bullshit like "wealth redistribution" when taxes technically are just that. We have a problem, and it is not monetary. People need to take what they are given if they have nothing and make the best of it. There are options available, but it requires effort on their part. If they apply no effort, they should get minimal help.

*sit there.

Fucking commies making me so fucking pissed I can't even spell, god dammit fuck.

Here's some basics:

youtube.com/watch?v=g3aeDQwOSSs

youtube.com/watch?v=LrzKDKPvg4Y

youtube.com/watch?v=PoTVSsxiwGc

youtube.com/watch?v=HQjiZ-0yPo8

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>implying ANYONE in the united states is going hungry.

Have you seen poor people OP? They are obese.
Surviving is easier than ever for Americas "poor"

Others starve, We are "Hungry". I hate to admit it, the leaf is right.

stupid people is stupid managing money, they don't have the concept of saving and investing
giving them more money is a waste of resources and time because they're stupid

Scrooge McDuck is the one with the money.

Any nationalistic nation will be inherently socialistic with some form of welfare for the lower castes of society. The wealth disparity between rich and poor we see today has never existed in history and is a direct result of the central banks and the elites working together with our government to rob the middle and lower classes of their wealth through inflationary spending and debt accumulation. Nupol is too fucking stupid to understand that socialism has its merits and is in many ways better than the capitalism which we have in America today.

I am one of these wealthy people. I’m a pauper compared to some, but my 10 million is more than most of you will ever see. “Diversified securities” doesn’t mean it isn’t exploitative. Investing money through financial institutions is not investing in the infrastructure of your nation. Look at the current schizophrenic state of our overinflated stock market, people pour endless capital into meme companies that aren’t worth a fucking dime. An ANCAP is trying to tell me to brush up on economics? Fuck you. I’ll continue exploiting the system and growing my wealth and cave brains like you will keep licking my boot.

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Yup. The ol' American dream of "tighten up your boot straps and get to work" mentality is broken as fuck.
Unless you own your own business, you have to work for someone else. And not everyone can do that.
But when you work for someone else you are putting money in their pockets and they will climb the capitalist ladder while you stay stagnant in the system. Unless you possess some sort of unique skill where people look for you and will pay you big bucks, there will always be "the man" trying to get more out of what your skill is worth.
The super rich do this on a mass scale. Capitalism works to a certain extent. we just haven't hit the plateau yet. But when we do, I think it will eventually get better with automation and all. In the end capitalist and socialist economics will become one.

why do the poor need money? Shouldn't they just starve? Wouldn't that just be the evolutionary process continuing itself?

Because pol is autistic and has since become a festering ground for boomer trash.

The fact is the rich are literally an enemy of the white race and more generally an enemy of everyone. They distill what kikery is sterotyped as to the point it makes kikes look like acceptable people.

Why am I greedy for wanting to keep the fruits of my labor for myself?
I'm by no means ultra rich, I make about €30K a year before tax.
After tax and mandatory (((social security))), which will give me a pitiful pension that will never repay all I put in, it's about 20K net. And my employer pays another 8K to that social security, so effectively it's like if I was paid 40K with 50% tax. And I pay 22% VAT on everything on top of that.

So anyway, with the rest of the money that's left I bought two houses. According to you I'm now 'rich' and 'need to pay my fair share' (despite already paying effectively 60%+ tax).
Why the fuck should I want to 'redistribute' any more of my money to you? Why didn't you save your money and invest, instead of trying to seize mine?

Did nobody else catch this? He's using VPN and same fagging. Gtfo kike, you're so bad at it you can't even figure out how IDs work. Kill yourself

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whoa...this is powerful...

Because past a certain threshold money has little to no effect on happiness. No single human being needs a billion dollars. Money is a tool for progress and things don’t move when the money stays under the control of a single individual. I just want a billion dollars because I’m a psychopath and I hate my fellow man.

This thead is just full of shills, spies, and jidf faggots. I swear to god they're all responding to an obvious bait post and are too blind to even realize he's same fagging. Holy fuck Jow Forums get your shit together

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Because it fucks with the natural order filter. Those with higher IQ and/or drive will move to the top. Those without to the bottom. The top 10% produce and create 90% of the wealth thereby naturally supporting the majority. Just look at the sales departments of most companies and you'll see the same thing.

Wealth redistribution disincentivizes the higher performers whilst incentivizing the rest to stay lazy.

You pay your taxes and you invested back into the market by purchasing real estate. You also buy food, go out and spend money on the odd splurge or meal out here and there. It all adds up. But at least you are redistributing money into the system.

The problem isn't you. The problem is people who make MILLIONS or even billions and hoard it all. You work hard, while they continue to make you work hard for them.

The only shills here are the cucks defending the people who currently run the system that is literally killing off their race and culture.

It's the height of absurdity but it's why conservatism is dead, it has no future.

Questioning the laissez faire capitalist system which has destroyed the modern world and empowered kikes gets you branded a communist.

Poverty, extreme income inequality, economic oppression, corporatism, almost entirely at the hands of Jews - is perfectly fine. We hate Jews but this is ideal. Ancap baby. Corporations to Commissars. Economic systems fail not because of overcentralization and Jewish corruption but because SOME GOODER THAN HOOKNOSE SHARE-TRIBE. COIN GOOD. GRUG LIKE COIN. HOOKNOSE SHARE-TRIBE GIVE GRUG COIN TO BEAT GRUG BROTHER.

>implying the poor of today don't have enough to eat

Except the 10% relies on an obviously exploited underclass to produce said wealth. These rich people don’t exist in a vacuum, their wealth is built upon the backs of those too weak or too stupid to realize they’re being exploited.
Harvard conducted an interesting the study a few years ago showing that the bottom 99% of earners basically have no effect on legislation while the top 1% do. If you give me a sec I’ll find the study itself. But the rich are the ones lobbying, keeping the proles in their place and reaping most of the benefits of whatever legislation is passed.

Those people don't 'hoard' their money you fucking commie, they invest it back into the real economy in the form of loans to businesses and private individuals. You don't get rich by hoarding.If they hoarded their money they'd be poor.

>inb4 muh speculation
Then ban speculative financial instruments.

What a dumb cartoon, you can’t eat smells.

Starvation is not a major issue. It just doesn't happen very often.

>defending usury

Literally a kike.

Interest based banking is the root of it all.

AYO
*gets banned from twitter for wrongthink*
AYO HOL UP
*discord releases my private conversations to news media*
HOL UP
*domain name gets seized by registrar*
HOL UP
*watches blacked porn that hasn't pulled a profit in decades*
HOL UP
*smacks lips*
AYO
*gets fired from factory line job for having the wrong opinion*
HOL UP
*watches racemixing commercial*
AYO
*advertisers cut ties with me to pressure me politically*
SO YOU BE SAYIN
*internet nodes throttle my traffic because of my opinion*
HOL UP
*corporations lobby to take my guns*
HOL HOL HOL UP
*goes bankrupt from giving loans to small business minorities and women*
THAT FREE MARKETS BE EFFICIENT AND SHIT?

cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

It was actually Stanford that conducted the study and it was actually the top 10% who influence things rather than the 1%.

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Lol ok. This dude is still in his mom's basement

Distrubited wealth would just lead to weakness in an already weak generation.

Uhhh Literally this Banking and interest were invented because the rich didn't want to let go of their wealth. Are you just naive or stubborn to understand that rich want to keep their wealth, not invest it back and be philanthropists. They always want something out of every breath they take.

Perfect.

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You are a fucking retarded moron, and won't have your millions long.

What private parties do with their OWN FUCKING MONEY cannot be exploitative. It's their money, they aren't exploiting another party unless such party is contracting with them, and is in a moron, in which case fuck em.

"Investing money through financial institutions is not investing in the infrastructure of your nation." - This statement is so fucking retarded I barely even know where to begin. I invest money for wealthy people and institutional investors, one of these fields is infrastructure (public and private) and it is booming, so fuck right off you clueless faggot.

If people are investing money in companies worth fuck all, think about why they're doing it? Couldn't possibly have anything to do with government and central banks manipulating interest rates, or QE... fucking utter imbecile. The state causes the immense asset bubbles we see. The investor's response is merely symptomatic of the underlying problem, state action.

Brush up on your economics and also get a clue.

You fucking retard, wealth inequality is fucking IRRELEVANT BECAUSE WEALTH ISN'T A FIXED PIE OR ZERO SUM GAME. That said, you're correct that the central banks and govt are fucking the middle class in the ass. Socialism has no merits, the free market, absent state interference has merits. State interference in the market is socialism by its most accurate definition. Socialism almost invariably requires state coercion to exercise its ends.

Fuck people here are stupid.

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Jews want to keep all the money to themselves.
Corperations used to bay 50% of all taxes... Now its only 5%.

There is literally nothing wrong with interest based lending. I would have to be fucking retarded to lend someone I don't know money at 0% interest knowing they might never repay me.

Sadly everyone in my family is dead. Where do you think initially got my fortune? Hard work? Lol.

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they added catalonia to the choices

Why do people assume poverty looks like this? That's probably 0.01% of poverty cases and the rest are either temporarily like that or people with mental disabilities who are too crazy to actively seek help

I'm not OP, give me all your money. It's the right thing to do.

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>I'm no communist
>Catalonia flag

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>Where do you think initially got my fortune? Hard work?
yes, it can eventually be traced to hard work

>nothing wrong with interest based lending.

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Money very rarely stays under control of a single individual. It's not a fixed pie, money is used and invested, even by the rich. You're just too fucking stupid to see it. Also, it's not your fucking place to tell anyone else what they want or need you bloody tyrant. Fuck off.

Many people who "hoard" money, lose it, and many more of them invest. Get a clue, you're just wrong, simpliciter.

You mean the socialist/progressive morons in government ruining the system and impoverishing the 3rd world? e.g. the EU. Get a clue.

ROFL please explain how free markets have destroyed the modern world ahaahahah. Free markets created the modern world and allowed people to escape the grinding poverty and need to basic goods which chained them to the same place, job, and status for virtually all of human history before now. You are no clue what the FUCK you are talking about, my god.

Please explain how they're exploited, moron. When rich people lobby and influence government to their economic benefit, this is FUCKING SOCIALISM, YOU MORON. THE STATE SHOULD HAVE NO ROLE IN THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY, WHEN IT DOES, IT IS SOCIALISM, RETARD.

Clueless inarticulate retard, kys.

Banking and interest were invented because otherwise there's no reason to build wealth to use it in the first place you fucking moron. Do you think an advance of capital (a loan), and the time saved/convenience this provides, should be fucking free? Are you actually retarded? Everyone wants to keep what they have and hedge against future risk, this is the route to evolutionary success, and you would do the exact same if you didn't have some failfuck commie retard attitude with an IQ of 52.

KYS

Why stop at the border, spainfag? If US, Euro, wealth was "properly and fairly" distributed, you would actually lose rather than gain, since we'd have to deal in 5 billion people who make a few bucks a day at the moment because their culture and government suck. Instead of going from $20k/yr to $75k/yr, you'd actually probably drop to $10k/yr.

You actually are the rich faggot that won't share, if you think about it.

>get a clue

I'm afraid to say that applies to you, m8. Global capitalism promoted by the rich is simply antithetical to the ideals of nation state or race, the fact you're attempting to argue otherwise means you're a kike shill.

Their wealth gives them huge influence resulting in the society we see today. The first step in fixing it is cutting their heads off.

Typical response of a clueless retard who doesn't understand the most basic economic principles.

As if everyone should lend money and not get it back just for altruism... Imagine a situation where everyone was perfectly altruistic, and just passed the buck on to the next person? Greatness would never be achieved and we would still be living in fucking caves.

youtube.com/watch?v=JJFsd2Nn-4o

youtube.com/watch?v=yQhqZ-iWMRM

Stealing is wrong.

The government should be the one issuing interest free loans to advance national goals. Private loans need to be banned as they allow money to be made without doing work on the part of the person giving the loan.

>It’s my gun! It can’t be exploitative. It doesn’t matter if I hold it to the somebodies head and force them to do something it’s my gun!

I’ve doubled it in six years, so I think I’m doing okay. Ignoring your tumblr image, who fucking lobbies the state to get us into these ridiculous situations in the first place? Are you implying central banks are part of the state? I sure hope your investors don’t know you think the federal reserve is a part of the US government. These are PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS making it harder for the middle class and lower classes, forcing the government to prop the whole thing up because why not? They’re getting paid. At the end of the day it’s the proles who suffer. Money talks, people don’t.
Infrastructure goes beyond the stock market. How is the mom and pop shop down the street going to expand when they’re not able to go public? I’m talking about direct investment into localized communities, not handing over mountains of cash to bottom feeding “wealth managers” like yourself.

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>what is charity

Government can fuck off.

If you care, give them your money.

I’ll tell you right now, I don’t know the meaning of the phrase. Im a spoiled brat, always have been, always will be.

You're asking people that hate to even pay taxes why they don't like the idea of even more of their money being taken away? Fucking idiot. I pay ~%50 of my income into taxes. It's already not fair, now you want me to take out more for people that don't make the effort to live within their means? Fuck off.

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You're too stupid to understand the most basic economics or any argument from abstraction, so I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, but the idea that capitalism is a "thing" that people promote, is simply ridiculous. Capitalism simply exists where people are free to make their own decisions economically, absent coercion from the state. It is this principle which has resulted in the ascendancy of the west in the last 400 years, as they allowed for free markets and diversification of production. Capitalism exists independently of the state.

However, your argument is shite anyway, as one of the great arbiters of free trade, the British Empire, was a staggering success (and, had it not been for two idiotic and disastrous world wars, and input of socialist shit in the 60s and onwards, it would still be hegemonic).

Cut the Marxist ressentiment, get off your lazy fucking ass, and create something.

Go back to bed Mao

it
s the reason WHY that matters user. this is so basic of an element here in this conversation.

Your entire argument rests on the blatant lie that the Free market is indeed free and not skewed by legislation to favor big fish.

because the overwhelming majority of people here is full of people without a sense of community and companionship. they never interact with outher people and all they care is about themselves, not their people, nation or community. nothing binds them to anyone, its always just memememe like little children without a sense of morality and reason.

But we ARE generous; we'll gladly redistribute bullets to communists -- and with great speed, such great speed, the best speed.

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Are you actually arguing capitalists haven't been integral to mass immigration?

Are you actually arguing the rich haven't had a huge part in this?

The Britian is being colonized by the same people who made up its empire, it is an objective failure that was predicted to occur because of the pseudo-kike tendencies of the Anglos.

Bah! OP's pic is weak-sauce.
THIS is powerful, and brutal.

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Wealth distribution depends on answering the following questions

>What does wealth distribution mean? (Wealth does not just mean money)
>Who determines who gives and receives the wealth?
>What criteria does one meet to be the giver or receiver?
>Who overlooks the body distributing wealth?
>Who overlooks the body that overlooks the body distributing wealth, etc etc
>How do you make changes to the rules of wealth distribution? Surely there would be a conflict of interest for the wealthy, and the poor, when asking for changes
>Who determines what is ‘wealthy’ and what is ‘poor’, and how do you determine that?
>How do you shape the local and global factors affecting the poverty line to ensure it isn’t manipulated to take too much or too little?
>along with many other questions

Essentially, wealth distribution discussion always devolves into the following
>”The government knows how to spend your money better than you do”
>”I don’t understand math, so I can’t understand that taking all wealth from the wealthiest people wouldn’t be enough unburden the lower class of even student debt”

Take student debt in the US as an example. Why is that? Because a few years ago someone decided the US government would cover any loans that default. This leads to the following results, among others:
>Universities don’t have to give a shit what they charge
>Universities want to get as many asses in seats as possible, as it’s guaranteed money
>Universities produce bullshit ‘feel good’ courses and environments, to create a larger subgroup of students who are not only not ready for the real world, but can only operate within the university environment

Your wealth belongs to you, as does your debt. Getting more can take a stroke of luck, ingenuity, or takes generations to build.

The world is not fair, and nobody owes you anything.

Why is it so hard to grasp capitalism while also having a basic income so that people don't die?

Oh that's right, more poor people means more for health companies, pharam companies, insurance companies, and more slaves. It keeps those already in power on high, confident ground.

Ok. We'll start by redistributing your wealth. If you're able to post on Jow Forums, you're already in the top 1% of the world.

I'll put it into terms even you can understand:

>A small percentage of people are rich
>Take money from small percentage, everyone now has $5000
>Niggers will use their $5000 to buy rims
>The small percentage pool their money, buy a bunch of rims wholesale and open a shop that sells rims at $5000 a set
>The small percentage ends up with a bunch of money, open up pawn shops
>Niggers steal other niggers' rims, sell them at pawn shops so they can buy bling
>The small percentage sells niggers bling at 900% markup
>Niggers sell bling at 90% loss to pay for drank and baby diapers, not surprisingly sold at store owned by small percentage
>The small percentage of people have all the money
>Niggers can't understand why they are poor
>Lather
>Rinse
>Repeat

You will never be able to take wealth from those who produce it and still keep the wealth production going like before.
Just a fact of life.

ANCAPS live in their own world.

If it really were a vpn the odd would have changed.

Jesus christ, this is one of the dumbest fucking ideas I have ever heard, it's laughable. Guess what happens with easy access loans with little consequences for default? Fucking retard.

Your comment is barely even a coherent thought, retard. The state has a monopoly on sanctioned coercion, it allows itself to be lobbied or bribed, fuck off if you conceptualize it otherwise, you're wrong. The Fed is allowed to exist by the state, which is again a failure of the state.

Cut the regulations and you can see investment in localized areas. Cut dumbass regulations like the 40 Act and other bullshits requiring one to be a qualified purchaser etcetera to actually invest in private equities.

"Handing money over to bottom feeding wealth managers..." This comment is so fucking ignorant. Billions of the money we invest is from public/private pension funds, which makes money for the average folks to retire. These capital commitments very generally have a 1-2% mgmt fee, and then any sums beyond the hurdle rate (avg is 8%) gets paid (depending on the structure of the carry waterfall) to the investor and the manager in an 80:20 ration. This is hardly bottom feeding or exploitative. If you think that the 2% fee is excessive, you're again just retarded and have no FUCKING CLUE what it takes to run these firms, or to comply with swathes of regulation. Do you have any idea how much fucking City lawyers cost? Probably not. KYS clueless fuck.

Damn right, fuck government and fuck braindead commies.

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Because to you people rich is anyone that isn't a wagecuck.
Small business owner?
>RICH AS FUCK
Skilled laborer earning more than you?
>RICH AS FUCK
Person with savings?
>RICH AS FUCK
Also fuck cataluña and mudslime catalanes, they can both go suck on nigger muslim dick

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a whole wine bottle with dinner, not even a glass. sounds cozy

(((study)))

Legislation is socialism you fucking absolute idiot. I am against regulation precisely because it fucks everyone, and it happens to fuck small business more. Think of the fabulously retarded new GDPR in the EU. Do you think that a small business has the time and money to hire 3 lawyers to review the guidance and implement policies and procedures so that they don't get some fucking fine, for a thin which the consumer could protect themselves against?

What we're seeing here is the death of caveat emptor, and the rise of retards.

The free market isn't really a thing itself, it is simply people being allowed to make their own economic decisions and to both benefit, and suffer, from the consequences of their actions in such marketplace. The state impedes this function almost invariably, and it shouldn't. This free market process is also inarguably responsible for the vast wealth creation and prosperity in the last 400 years.

Please get a clue.

That is not how it works. Our money is made up. The federal reserve prints it. We all agree if we sit down and think about it that you cannot redistribute wealth. You can't just take from the rich and give to the poor, maybe the rich earned their money. You can't just take a percentage from everyone and redistribute, because you are taking from people you also give to and it ends up having no effect.

I hinted at the root issue. Some rich have money that do not earn it and this destroys our capitalist system. The only way to stop it is for the feds to print the money and force those in power to accept a baseline income as actually money isntead of inflation.

The immigration itself isn't necessarily a problem fuckwit. It's the state again. If the state wasn't feeding these useless fucks welfare, and raping tax dollars from productive people for handouts, these people wouldn't come here in such numbers. If superstate mongoloids like the EU didn't have a retarded external tariff and a multiplicity of RIDICULOUS non-tariff barriers to trade, then the economies in the 3rd world wouldn't be continually getting fucked, and they could provide us the things we want (natural resources etc., and cheap labour) at a fair world market price. Further, if handouts were not provided, and the state didn't intervene in our lives with bullshit hatespeach laws, affirmative action, and other crap, these people could be forced to be successful (or fail) and thereby integrate into our society and leave their regressive cultural practices behind. FURTHERMORE, if the colonies had been maintained, and free trade enforced (rather than socialism, and tribal/religious retardation), these countries wouldn't have become backwaters since the 1950s, as they would (at least some) have developed.

You are so fucking stupid, and so painfully ignorant of basic economics and history, that you really can't see it. Go read something beyond Marx and women's studies, or the fucking Guardian.

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>previous post states explicitly that free market Capitalism exists independently of the State.
>current post outlines how the State directly interferes with free market Capitalism

I’m starting to have trouble taking you seriously.

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And that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Money is merely a representation of value. Think about this, and then read your dumbass comment again. Also, you don't understand inflation or supply and demand it would seem...

Have I been bested semantically? What would you call it, friend?

Are you mentally challenged? Can you not read? I'm not even going to explain to you how fucking stupid your post here is.

Because something exists independently of another process, does not mean that it cannot be interfered with. If my carrots grow fine on their own, they exist independently. If the weeds come in and fuck their shit up, this does not necessarily entail that my carrots have ceased to act independently, they have merely been interfered with by the goddamn weeds.

Fuck off loser, you're stupid, go read some basic logic and economics.