Hey pol I have a question for you since I don't have access to many free market libertarians in my own daily life.
Trumps turn to tariffs is, for me, a really unexpected about face in regards to historical republican support of free trade policies.
So my question is, what is your take on this as libertarians? And how does this affect any support you might have had for Trump previously?
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Jow Forums is national socialist, not libertarian.
>shilling for moloch
I voted for him to STOP free trade.
Constitution allows tariffs.
This is all normal shit that the USA only very recently forgotten from its history.
Free trade is fine. But when a country uses free trade to pillage my nation's wealth and industry, then it's a liability and must be stopped.
Fuck free trade and degrading American living standards to those of our "free" trade partners
Do you guys see this as a critique of capitalism? Is this just a limit on capitalism you're willing to accept? Do you still consider yourselves to be capitalists?
>free trade is capitalism
American education everyone.
Is it still free trade when your trade parters are massively protectionist themselves, not only via their own tarrifs against you but also by massve domestic subsidies? Fuck no. How about when many of your workers are unionized, but your trade parters literally murder union activists thereby lowering the price of labor in their countries? Fuck no.
Free trade is good, as long as nobody cheats. But everyone cheats, so free trade sucks ass.
PS. We leafs deserve the current raking for our agricultural tarrifs and subsidies.
>Free trade is good, as long as nobody cheats. But everyone cheats, so free trade sucks ass.
Can't the same be said about capitalism? (I admittedly had these more conflated than it appears I should have, but I think the question still stands.)
>Trumps turn to tariffs is, for me, a really unexpected
It shouldn't be, Trump has had nationalist views on Trade since the 80s in a similar vein as Ross Perot, Chris Matthews, Pat Buchanan, and others.
>what is your take on this as libertarians?
As Libertarians? Fuck Libertarianism
He's correct with regards the EU vs America's archaic taxation methods. Also, I'm pretty certain that back in the late 80's and early 90's the EU deliberately changed member states taxes and tarrifs to exploit Uncle Sam's retardation.
Shrodinger's capitalism: when good things happen, its because le free market. When bad things happen, its because le evil corrupt corporotocracy and government intervention (never mind that the politicians are bought by the capitalists). Same as communism, really. Perfect utopia until bad shit goes down, then proponents scream 'not real socialism'.
Here's a couple of real redpills, user:
1. Natural douchebags strive for power and engage in unfair exploitation of others regardless of the system.
2. No system ever absolves the common man of the personal responsibility to be CONSTANTLY VIGILANT against the machinations of douchebags. This means murdering bad commissars and kings, voting out shitty corrupt politicians, and boycotting evil corporations as applicable.
So do you think the free trade vs protectionist groups in the republican party will help tear it apart?
No, free trade cucks will be purged for being soft globalists.
Know the best part?
This is the year Democrats win fucking everything.
No.
Really.
I mean EVERYTHING.
Asshole will attack Syria, kill Assad, and leave the bald headed Russian cunt spitting mad.
Then Mueller will have Asshole and Vice Asshole arrested by summer.
Then President Nancy Pelosi (uhhhnnng fuck YAS) gets to declare national emergency right before the big blue tsunami in November.
Hey, don't forget the Russian cunt!
He'll do something incredibly stupid. Or we'll just tell you he did. ;)
Are you guys with me?
Okay.
So.
President Nancy Pelosi. Democratic supermajority. War and emergency powers.
Like holy FUCKING SHIT.
We're literally literally going to be dragging far right pantshitters into FEMA camps this time next year. We'll literally be giving their big houses to refugees and undocumented immigrants. We'll LITERALLY be doing whatever the fuck we want and there's exactly FUCK ALL Skinhead cunts can do about it.
Congrats, babydicks.
You beat your chests and thrust your little dicks thinking you'd won the entire world when Asshole beat Her.
Now, you get to find out what a big, brutal bloodthirsty bitch Hillary "Payback" Clinton is. And how much delicious mischief we'll do with no rules, no limits, and no more regressive shitfucks standing in our way.
Hey whats your import tax?
>15%
Ok now our import rates for you are 15%
>REEEEEE
My hope is the free traitors get expelled and then join the Democrat party.
There's really no reason that the Koch Brothers shouldn't be Democrat donors, after all they have all the same globalist positions as your average Silicon Valley CEO: neoliberalism, open borders, mass immigration, hatred of the working class. Where exactly is the difference between the Koch Brothers and Zuckerberg/Tim Cook?
I mean look at the levels of delusion that the DNC is working with right now.
Trump is a filthy statist cuck. The only difference between him and democrats is that while democrats tax white people and give gibs to blacks he taxes the consumer to give gibs to companies.
>he expects conservatives to not violently react to litera expropriations and mass arrests of their friends.
I unironically hope you try this.
>My hope is the free traitors get expelled and then join the Democrat party.
It's so confusing. Democrats and leftists were against NAFTA at the time.
And now you're telling me that the ppl in the republican party who supported nafta at the time are "free traitors" and should leave the party.
Well, I guess that answers my question about intra-party republican turmoil tearing their party apart...
>There's really no reason that the Koch Brothers shouldn't be Democrat donors, after all they have all the same globalist positions as your average Silicon Valley CEO: neoliberalism, open borders, mass immigration, hatred of the working class. Where exactly is the difference between the Koch Brothers and Zuckerberg/Tim Cook?
Oh right... Related to this I showed a friend this quote:
"The bigger problem for Trump — who cares little for policy and makes up his own facts anyway — is the political one. In the face of Trump’s trade war, the Koch brothers have launched a political war with lawmakers who are enabling destructive trade policies. CNBC reports, “Koch network groups Freedom Partners, Americans for Prosperity and the Libre Initiative made it clear in an announcement Monday that they are opposed to Trump’s tariffs and that their media and PR blitz is determined to show the benefits of open trade policies.”"
And they said:
That's likely not to matter to the 30-35% of voters that are unshakably in lockstep with Trump. Those are the folks that are 100% going to show up at the polls in 2018 and 2020. The question really is, will there be enough moderates who don't sit out.
What do you think?
>those fucking ellipses
get your ass back to /reddit/ faggot
Free Trade Fanatics need to hang themselves. There is no point in it of our country runs a loss. The most important thing is to protect American jobs and American producers. We have more than enough economic muscle. It's about time we threw our Market Weight around.
Sorry, it's a habit I picked up when I started using usenet... I used to type all my sentences with ellipses between them...like this...but fortunately someone made me stop...though I guess not good enough for you. :)
Go build a private road or something faggot
>Do you guys see this as a critique of capitalism?
Yes
>Is this just a limit on capitalism you're willing to accept?
Yes
>Do you still consider yourselves to be capitalists?
Not many people here are 100% capitalist libertarians. Most people here believe some form of government protection is okay; for example forcing companies to hire local American workers instead of overseas workers even if the Americans are 3x more expensive.
>Free Trade Fanatics need to hang themselves.
It doesn't concern you to have this point of agreement with anti-capitalists?
"More than anything, anti-capitalists hate free trade. This is the one thing that unites Trump and Clinton, May and Hollande. Free trade depends on moving money as well as goods. Anti-capitalists will try to shut down the money flow that enables commerce."
Trump is not a Republican. He has more in common with Bernie Sanders than with what is traditionally considered Republican policies.
This. He was always talking about free trade in his rallies. Free but FAIR trade, no more getting but fucked.
>Not many people here are 100% capitalist libertarians.
Thanks for the response. It's just blowing my mind a little bit. I always saw the republicans as the free trade party.
Don't tempt me with a good time there, bud. I'll enjoy shooting back.
>Free but FAIR trade, no more getting but fucked.
That's fine, but that's kind of by definition not free trade. There's no such thing as "free but fair" IMHO. How can that be? The moment you put things in place to make it "fair" it's no longer "free".
He also said he believes in FAIR trade you out of context faggot
> Russian rape-babies intellectuals
so you are a democrat? republicans have always had more migration than democrats and are bigger supporters of worker protection and other "anti capitalist" regulations
Free trade is dead, fair trade now
>fair trade now
im sorry sir that name is already trademarked, do you have 2 million dollars with you or do you want to be shot onside by micky mouses attorney
>Shut down the money flow.
What utter tripe. Protectionism was the policy for hundreds of years worldwide and the economies of the Great Powers did just fine. And what is this "Anti-capitalist" label? Ok? Is Capitalism some kind of sacred institution? The market is not some kind of sacred institution that is immune to criticism. The Economy should serve the Nation, not the other way around. I don't have a problem with responsible Capitalism, but if American business are harming America, than they need to brought to heel
OP is a faggot retard
It isn't free trade when every other country on the planet tariffs the US
nigger
How do you feel about the 10 principles of fair trade?
im sure everyone tarrifs american steel at 20%
>And what is this "Anti-capitalist" label? Ok? Is Capitalism some kind of sacred institution? The market is not some kind of sacred institution that is immune to criticism. The Economy should serve the Nation, not the other way around. I don't have a problem with responsible Capitalism, but if American business are harming America, than they need to brought to heel
I'm just used to hearing this from socialists.
its the same as regular socialists, but they include the jews to act like the argument wasnt settled years ago
They seem alright. But their are some glaring gaps and unanswered points.
we don't have "free trade" lolbertarian. how it works is our "allies" have free access to our market but they're allowed to place protections around their industries. how exactly is that free or fair to Americans?
yeah 70 years ago it was a great idea. it allowed up to bribe up an alliance against the Soviets and let our allies export themselves back to affluence. it was great we beat the Soviets but they aren't around anymore and we don't need to let every country in the world rip us off.
Stick a schnitzel in it Kraut. Your entire country is controlled by the Eu
Libertarianism, a broad ideology, is not entirely accepting of "free trade". Free markets, absolutely, but any libertarian with any economic sense would realize that this ends at the borders of our free state. You cannot have a free economy when your markets are filled with goods that are virtually slave produced and price controlled from a foreign entity, and you cannot have industry in such an environment.
and your entire country is controlled by jews, dont act like you have it any better
>Not wanting Corporations to fuck over the American worker is socialism.
The absolute STATE of Ancaps
Cute copypasta.
Yeah, but how am i suppossed to get rich by not exploiting my employees?
>no discrimination, freedom of accociation in the same point
>to be capitalists
if I owned multiple corporations I'd want to be able to run them in china and rake profits I wouldn't care about the American middle class. Trump does.
Capitalist is code for Merchant. Do not fall into the trap of thinking you can't love America unless you sign off as a "Capitalist"
These memeflaggot is posting this shit in every thread.
>Where exactly is the difference
Their voter registration party affiliation and it ends there.
He's putting tariffs on nations that have had tariffs on our exports for a long time. The goal is to lower all tariffs in a game of hardball.
I'm all for it.
I don't see how faggots can not understand this shit.
We never had free trade to begin with.
The reason everyone in US gov is on board with all the tariffs and sanctions is because of the new understanding that in this new era of great power conflict, the difference between war and peace is not black and white.
Trade is a tool of coercion, and a weapon of war in this new world.
The two party system is a cancer. I blame the first past the post system. We need proportional representation.
>Trade is a weapon.
Well fucking said.
Yes, I'm so pissed that the Rothschilds 2 aluminum companies can't take advantage of NAFTA anymore. Fuck off kikenstein.
Lolbiterians worship the free trade concept. It's pointless to argue
Fuck you for your reddit spacing and for the Leafs giving away their NAFTA benefits to foreign controlled companies. For what? A pittance in tax revenue? You're literally like niggers selling their food stamps.
If you Trumptards hate trade so much, simply stop trading with other people and make everything you use yourself. See how that works out for you.
90% of what's wrong with the west today is that we turned to ideologically driven politics. Capitalism this socialism that, it blinds you to the cases - and they will always be there - where the policy you embraced up til now just doesn't work.
For most of history, white people operated on "what will most benefit us this time" and every other race still does it. Now if you turn to a socialist policy where before you espoused capitalism, you're rebuked as a hypocrite. It doesn't matter if the free market is a bad idea this time, it was the free market before so it must be the free market forever. Commitment to abstract ideas of how the country *should* be run instead of the concrete outcome of specific policies.
Free trade worked for America in the past. That doesn't mean it's the right choice this time.
That's why everyone at Walmart and over 200 other companies got significant wage increases after the tax cuts? These people are the poor and minorities you fucking retard.
Former libertiarian here Free trade sounds good but it has its limits obviously. You don't want to trade with a country you are at war with right?
There are different types of enemies/competition and not all of them will try to attack with force.
Take China for example they are our economic rivals they aren't trying to topple the us hegemony by war they are trying to out compete us. We should take whatever steps are necessary to safeguard our position.
tariffs > taxes
In the beginning, the US did not have a federal income tax. The federal government was financed by tariffs. This led to one of the major divisions between the north and south: the industrialized north favored tariffs to protect against british imports; the south wanted to export and import freely because they were a commodity economy.
In the early 20th century, the Jews started coming into the US en masse. And surprise: we got a central bank and a federal income tax. With income tax, there is no longer a need for the government to have tariffs: they are getting their income from the wage slaves. (Of course, the money is going to pay interest on the (((debt))) and to pay for the army that enforces foreign (((debt)))).
WWII was the "free trade" (((globalists))) against the nationalists. The (((globalists))) won. That is why we are taught to hate and fear nationalism and fascism.
He’s taking a big-ass risk with these tariffs. The Smoot-Hawley Tariff under Hoover escalated the Great Depression.
This country has never been 100% capitalist retard.
>Someone puts a 15% tariff on your products.
>You put less than a 15% tariff on theirs.
Its just the school example of a bad deal.
Ideal positions tell you what a man wants. Real situations tell you what a man can do.
Trump wants free trade in a world with massive monopolies who wield a huge amount of financial, judicial and political power.
As long as he keeps pushing in the right direction his supporters will support him. For most people understand the meaning behind the saying 'Rome wasn't built in a day'.
There are literal retards out there who will say, with a straight face the day after a nuclear attack on USA, with all of America's guns pointed at the aggressor;
'Told you drumpf was a warmonger Hur Hur hur'
But these people throw context, subtle nuance, word play, strategic thinking etc. all to one side so they can prove their point. It is the only way in which their reality works, if you suspend reality for one minute.
For further research look into the cases and effects of mental retardation in a developmental sense focussing on key cognitive stages and the need for certain environments for cognitive stages to develop. As in they are all childminded.
Stay away from these people user, they have chosen their path.
it's even worse than that
Under NAFTA, China and other nations could import goods in through Canada and Mexico. It was a giant loophole. That is why Trump said NAFTA was a terrible deal
You are talking about the time when the total government spending hovered around 2% of the GDP. That's the level you can fund with tariffs, but it is impossible to go back to these types of governments nowadays.
>For most people understand the meaning behind the saying 'Rome wasn't built in a day'.
You brought up the changed version of the quote, but I think the original is appropriate here.
The original version is "Rome wasn’t built in a day, but it burned in one" and the meaning is of course that it doesn't take too much to fuck up something beautiful, that took a long time to build.
Free trade is wealth redistributing socialism. Trade with China is treason. Trump is a traitor just like the rest.
Ok so once USA invaded EU, they tried to undo the mess they did by allowing free trade. This was ongoing until Merkel said MUH DICK. Now that the post-war situation is over and that the EU doesn't comply a lot with US agenda anymore. The US raise the tariffs back.The EU was not happy and as a result said we will raise tariffs on Peanut Butter!
--> Must admit the situation is kind of fucked for EU...
Fuck free trade
> Trump is a traitor just like the rest.
Trump is the one fighting for tariffs dumbass.
Free trade is untenable in a world where labour is so cheap that it completeley decimates your manufacturing. You need to protect your core industries and tariffs are the best way.
Fuck off and move to the USA faggot
Yes, number 6 contradicts itself. Also discrimination is a good thing. It's all about making informed decisions.