If business don’t make profit by exploiting the surplus value generated by a workers labor, then how do they?
>apple pays a chink 1€ a day to make an iPhone, sells it for €900
>apple pays an engineer 70k€ a year and saves 5mil from his ideas
>he gets a €400 bonus, his (((boss))) gets a €10.000 bonus, ceo gets a €1mil bonus
>a commie hungarian
fuck off, you should know better than this
It's a voluntary transaction.
The worker who gets paid €1 a day has 3 choices:
-take the job and get paid €1
-don't take the job and get paid €0
-create his own business or join a syndicate/commune/coop etc.
The fact that almost nobody chooses option 2 or option 3 should tell you something about reality.
>€
Doesn't work like the image and never has.
This. If cooperatives were more efficient they'd be all over the place, they aren't illegal.
>just become a ceo bro!
You retards are the same ones who complain the government makes it so hard to start a business. So what is it?
I also believe that all businesses should be non-profit and untaxed.
>businesses have minds of their own
>businesses don't require feeding
oh sweetie!
The economy is a joke today anyway. Bullshit made up jobs, like engineee at the fidget spinner factory. All so kikes can keep getting richer through (((economic growth))) via consumerism
Won't a cooperative eventually turn into a corporation? As the number of workers get bigger there will be people who are responsible for
>You retards are the same ones who complain the government makes it so hard to start a business. So what is it?
Both, you retard?
There is an infinite supply of job security.
You just gotta look for it.
You forget the part where one of the 'coop' realizes no one has protection and targets the least-liked miners so that he can murder them and steal their share, then purchases the loyalty of the other miners.
But keep pretending everyone is good and wholesome, it makes a cute fairy tale for the kiddies.
>Owner invested lots of money into surveying and opening the mine
>Owner invested lots of money into equipment and supplies to keep the mine going
>Owner invested lots of money into infrastructure to move ore and workers in and out of mine
>Owner invested lots of money into making contracts and setting up buyers
>Worker shows up, expects full profit sharing
They will get fucked in the ass by themselfs due their own greed.
Its gonna be great
>engineer comes up with the idea
>manager just green lights it
Right up there with brilliant “””””””visionary leadership”””””” like sending the factory to China. Wow, so smart.
In today's day in age, ideas are stolen from the first job interview.
Kill yourself, commiefag.
>owner got money from daddy or venture capitalists
>owner hired someone to survey it
>owner hired someone to make purchasing contracts etc
>owner got the state to give him a tax break and build a railroad to his mine
>muh bootstraps
>just become a ceo bro!
Exactly. If you're too stupid to hack it as a ceo, then you better be a good wagecuck.
The ceo makes more because his job is more important. Out of 100 people, one might be the ceo. The remaining 99 are the grunts. Why? Because gruntwork takes no talent or skill and can be replaced by nearly anyone else.
Learn2economics you fucking commie retard
>capitalism isn’t perfect
>commie
56% education at its finest. At least my country actually had a fascist government
I guess slaves need overseers too. Is there a law of economics that says ceos make 300x the average worker even when most actual decisions are decided by lower rungs?
Also most CEO’s are just literal sociopaths
I never said "just become a ceo bro!".
I'll simplify it:
-get a job working for someone else and earn money
-start your own business or join a cooperative like in your image
Why do you the vast majority of people choose option 1 and not option 2?
Most people were self employed until the industrial revolution. The capitalist class (business owners, shareholders, etc) has people dancing on a string today
>slaves
Not an argument
You are paid for what value you bring. We aren't going to start paying burger flippers $15/hourand expect the venture to be successful because the work isn't worth $15/hour.
>actual decisions are decided by lower rungs
[Citation needed]
Don't recall thelast time the ceo asked more my input on how much should be invested in X over Y
You aren't wrong
Monopoly has a very generous legal definition.
If a worker wants to do all that and then give away his profits he's free to do so.
Yeah and all that hiring is sunk cost unless they recoup the losses with profit, which is why business owners need profit. Are you perhaps retarded? You know starting a business at all is a huge investment right, let alone maintaining its profitability and expanding it? You think the boss just fucks off with the money? How do you think businesses even continue to operate without constant investment?
If you worked in a coop you'd have to chip in a few thousand dollars to keep everything running every paycheck, the only difference is that it is skimmed off the top of all the workers' paychecks instead of just the boss'. You willing to lose half or more of your paycheck to keep the business running in tough times? You willing to take that risk?
Most self employed people were subsistence farmers. Go back to living in a mud hut if you wanna break free of the evil ceo
I actually work in business rather than posting on r/libertarianism. Most CEO’s are afraid to make decisions and be blamed for it so they essentially make all the people below them do all the research, present the options and then essentially tell them what decision to make. Yes even regarding investment etc
>implying they had a choice
What are slavery, enclosures, anti union violence, monopolies,
>Commie
>From a country that sounds like 'hungry'
Makes sense to me.
>I work in business
Bullshit. You can't be this unironically retarded and be a useful employee. You're some edgy kid sitting in your shitty commie block in budapest reminiscing about the soviet union which fell before you were even born
And if you think ceos or other execs don't make final decisions then this shows that you're talking out of your ass
>wahhh might makes right is mean
Man up you fucking child
Kek
> feudalism is somehow okay
*tips*
> surplus value
brainlet.png
>> feudalism is somehow okay
Where did I say that kike?
>the workers refuse to pool their own money
>the surveyor isn't looking for his own mines
>the contractor isn't keeping the mines he finds for sale
>workers still demand most of the profits for doing absolutely nothing
Tell me again why you don't belong in the ovens?
when you said might is right after he talked about enclosures. farmers under feudalism were punished for leaving their lord's estate
>Avanti ragazzi di Buda...
you just made the case why letting in immigrants is bad for wages
>The capitalist class (business owners, shareholders, etc) has people dancing on a string today
Do you believe that most people in the world are ignorant puppets controlled by evil capitalists?
Do you believe that if reality worked like the first image you posted and cooperatives were more beneficial to their members (as well as society at large) than companies, there would be any capitalist companies left in the world?
>feudalism
M8 you're talking about the manorial system. This was not universal in medieval Europe - mainly in the Low Countries, northern France, Spain, and England.
And I never said it was fine. The buttblasted commie is bitching about how they were "self employed" so I told him to go back living in a mud hut in the years 5000 BC
i too disagree with socialism, i'm just opposed to edgelord might is right opinions
>might makes right is mean
Remember that when you get kulak’d
You assume all work is exploitation, which is wrong.
Fuck off, you red rat
It’s not? News to me. By definition your employer is making a profit off of you.
I work for a boss, make plenty of money, and can invest the rest of my disposable income. None of my company's risk is borne on my shoulders.
My friends own their own companies; not only do their expenses take up most of their income, they have also staked all of their savings in their ventures. If it goes belly-up, they are ruined.
According to commie 'logic', I should want to put myself in the same position of my pals since I would be able to capture this supposed surplus value, but also that of other people's.
>it’s either Soros Neoliberalism or communism
>Saying I have rights somehow makes people who want me dead or enslaved stop and leave me alone.
Yeah people become business owners for the fun of it, not the money
Not talking to you, talking to the fedoralord and his edgy morals
Who do you think payed for the engineers time and whatever tools he needed to come up with the plan. The engineer spent 5 weeks sitting around on his ass just thinking and drawing while getting paid, but the CEO is the lazy one, right?
Why doesn't the engineer just do it himself?
Hey OP, answer
The only third position on this entire chart is Natsoc you fucking commie.
High risk high reward. It's pretty fucking simple.
Never said might makes right is correct. He's fetishising some time where the noble savage existed before evil capitalism. He'll have to go back pretty damn far for this one
Enjoy the helicopter ride
How is that exploitation?
I am aware, but edginess incarnate makes a good point, the guy with more force determines what games get played and how.
LOL, when did I say that they are not trying to make money?
My business owner friends and I are both trying to make money, but I, the one who supposedly is losing surplus value, am the only one who is successful in doing so.
>No capitalism
>Chink sits around all day, nothing to do
>Some guy has an idea for making a touch sensitive screen, nobody is interested
>People good at organizing things sit idly by, tidying up their hovels
Sounds great
I don't have a problem with cooperatives, the /leftypol/ commies do since they force the worker to engage in their own oppression or some such bullshit.
>I-I deserve more pay than my boss who spends hours a day talking to irrational people in a high stress, competitive market just to sell the small amounts of gold that I mine off the ground!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA JUST PAY THE MAN MORE FOR BEATING SOME ROCKS WITH HIGHLY EXPENSIVE MACHINES AND TAKE THE MONEY AWAY FROM THE GUY WHO NEEDS GREAT SOCIAL SKILLS AND A STRONG KNOWLEDGE OF MARKETING AND BUSINESS. LOOOLLLLLLLLL ITS THAT SIMPLE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH COMMUNISM ROCKS!!!!
Why doesn't the engineer hire the factory in china himself?
People in aus contract me out to build their house, I can get a team from china to finish the job for 40k in 4 months or an australian team to do it for 180k in 6 months. Which do I chose? The chinks either do the job or get deported with no cash, the aussies fuck around until way over date and expect to be paid fucking overtime for turning up late on a weekday!
So yeah, I just have the face front, the "elves" do all my work for me.
>gold mining cooperative
>4 guys standing in a deserted quarry doing fuck all because the picks got broken and no one had the initiative to invest in new ones.
>labor theory of value
This is so fucking stupid. If your labor is worth so much why don't you get with some other laborers and start a cooperative?
>10.000
Learn how to do numbers, its a fucking comma, you commie retard.
To explain in brief your argument is fallacious and non-empirical. Value has nothing to do with labor and it is not "stored" in objects or products.
Value is determined by how much a good or service can be sold for. That's it. It's a subjective assessment of how much someone is willing to pay for something at that moment.
So the worker's labor IS worth what he agrees to in exchange for it, and the product of that labor IS worth what the Capitalist sells it for, yet those two things have no empirical connection to each other--regardless of the product.
If you even begin to think about the preposterous implications of "surplus value" for a moment, it quickly becomes obvious that the entire idea is retarded and self-defeating. It has no answer whatsoever for service jobs, or for enterprises that fail and what reparations the workers of those businesses owe Capital, nor does it have any way of empirically demonstrating the existence of its own definition of value.
The only thing more worthless than LtV in economic theory is Use Value, which literally does not exist and cannot be calculated.
tl;dr Everything you claim about economics is factually incorrect and you only believe it because Jews told it to you. If you serve the Jews you will always lose--I'd recommend against it.
Workers aren't slaves to CEO's, they are slaves to the dollar. Everybody is a slave to currency including company owners. This is not necessarily a bad thing. All life on this planet is a slave to earth. All mammals are slaves to food and water. Farmers are the most powerful collective. They have their finger on the trigger. If they chose to do so, as a collective they could kill billions.
Intelligence runs the business and is worth more than the manual labor end of production. Not all people are born equal. Some people are just better than others. Those people make more money. If the sweat jockey was capable of running a business and being the boss man, then they'd be the boss man.
Hail marx comrade!
Comrades! It is time to put an end to the cosmopolitanism that plagues this world. Join national communist movement today!
In both cases you’re forced to work for a capitalist atleast until you procure enough capital, which could take decades.
>in reality, you need to work in order to live
That isn't a function of Capitalism that's just how reality works until we receive total automation--which will be never.
Of course, that’s why there is just an illusion of choice in capitalism. In a socialist order you have to work to sustain yourself too, but you get to keep everything you make.
They print money and scam people. Your cuck theory is retarded.
they aren't more efficient but they are more moral.
I'll absolutely let them make profit off my labor. Why? Because I don't want the stress of running my own business. They need workers, I need money, they want profit. It's a fair deal really. If it isn't, then quit and find something better, or try to unionize and bargain for a better deal with your co-workers.
The fact is that I get to come to work, do my job and then go home. That's awesome. I don't have to tend fields, care for livestock, manage finances for a business, or manage workers. I do my job and go home. I even get two days off.
Then I cash the check they give me for working there and I can pay my bills, and since I'm not a complete moron with my finances, I can save some of that left over money and buy a few toys once in a while.
The worst part of being a wage cuck, isn't working for someone else and letting them keep some of the profits, but instead its all the taxes I'm paying to feed lazy nigger faggots like you.
Workers liberation is the future. But its small scale. And it doesnt involve social justice bullshit.
If the socialists didnt embrace regressive leftist ideas so fucking hard wed have a very nice society today
>unemployment exists by design as a check on inflation
What the fuck am I reading