Why do so many people have such an instinctively negative reaction towards the death penalty? When I bring it up with people they always go "muh human rights, muh false verdicts", but how is it more humane to lock a person up for life than to just kill him? Yeah, the sentence can be overturned, sure, but you can never return the best years you stole from the person you locked up.
The benefits of the death penalty seem obvious to me. Take the death penalty for drug dealers, for example. Right now it's just worth it to do it for some people - they make a ton of money, have access to drugs and might not even be caught. If they're caught they just go to prison for a few years and if they're young and intelligent they might even just get probation and social hours, If there was the death penalty on drug dealing almost no one would be willing to take that risk anymore, especially after the first few public executions. I'd say it's the only way right now to effectively fight the drug problem. Just kill everyone who deals drugs if it can be proven 100% he committed the crime.
This also extends to other crimes, of course. It would be great if we could just forever get rid of people who inflict grievous bodily harm without previous provocation.
What's Jow Forums's opinion on the death penalty for things other than rape and murder (i.e. where they really are a deterrent)?
It requires boundless trust in the state and the justice system. I'll leave it to a German.
Nathan Taylor
It’s good
There are things that deserve death, which also means there are things that deserve celebration and life
Parker Jackson
We already have boundless trust in the state in Europe, though. People have been disarmed, it's illegal to defend yourself with deadly force and people are very content with this.
Brandon Campbell
The Ancient Germans, it appears, had no scruple about public executions; on the contrary, they thought the just gods themselves might fitly preside over these; that these were a solemn and highest act of worship, if justly done. When a German man had done a crime deserving death, they, in solemn general assembly of the tribe, doomed him, and considered that Fate and all Nature had from the beginning doomed him, to die with ignominy. Certain crimes there were of a supreme nature; him that had perpetrated one of these, they believed to have declared himself a prince of scoundrels. Him once convicted they laid hold of, nothing doubting; bore him, after judgment, to the deepest convenient Peat-bog; plunged him in there, drove an oaken frame down over him, solemnly in the name of gods and men: "There, prince of scoundrels, that is what we have had to think of thee, on clear acquaintance; our grim good-night to thee is that! In the name of all the gods lie there, and be our partnership with thee dissolved henceforth. It will be better for us, we imagine!"
Charles Wilson
I'm not comfortable with the state having the power to kill people. I'm not comfortable with the power they already have at the moment.
Sebastian Moore
My friends, after all this beautiful whitewash and humanity and prison-discipline; and such blubbering and whimpering, and soft Litany to divine and also to quite other sorts of Pity, as we have had for a century now,--give me leave to admonish you that that of the Ancient Germans too was a thing inexpressibly necessary to keep in mind. If that is not kept in mind, the universal Litany to Pity is a mere universal nuisance, and torpid blasphemy against the gods. I do not much respect it, that purblind blubbering and litanying, as it is seen at present; and the litanying over scoundrels I go the length of disrespecting, and in some cases even of detesting. Yes, my friends, scoundrel is scoundrel: that remains forever a fact; and there exists not in the earth whitewash that can make the scoundrel a friend of this Universe; he remains an enemy if you spent your life in whitewashing him. He won't whitewash; this one won't. The one method clearly is, That, after fair trial, you dissolve partnership with him; send him, in the name of Heaven, whither he is striving all this while and have done with him. And, in a time like this, I would advise you, see likewise that you be speedy about it! For there is immense work, and of a far hopefuler sort, to be done elsewhere.
This. In reality the social disruption caused by killing criminals does not outweigh the cost of keeping them prisoner. How many revolutions have been started by men martyred by the crown or by the state? People can rationalize with family being in prison, but they fear death.
David Miller
>We have already been disarmed by the state, therefore we should allow the state to kill us too. Check your logic Hans.
Samuel Rivera
Talking about the ancient Germans, Spengler went into detail in "Neubau des Deutschen Reichs" about how it was a huge mistake to adopt the Roman justice system over the Germanic one in Germany. According to Spengler people who commit crimes have to be treated as "vogelfrei" (= people without rights) and it citizens also must (!) not only report the criminal to the authorities but they also have the duty to stop the criminal in the act, if needed with deadly force.
John Diaz
Why kill them? Use criminals instead of cute animals in lab experiments. In fact I'd be ok with sparing a criminal's life if he contributed enough to science.
Tyler Wright
>Why do so many people have such an instinctively negative reaction towards the death penalty? They do? its probably fear that by some accident it would one day be them who gets executed. The army lost my documents and I almost got convicted of avoiding mandatory service, which is 2 years in jail or 1.000 lair (which is a lot for me)
Lucas Torres
Good luck getting germans to reawaken their tribal instincts though. We need a proper government before we can fantasize about public executions.
Joseph Cruz
Did you know Vlad was basically just a fief who did the bidding of the 100% Hungarian King Matyas Hunyadi?
I'm not wasting my time getting into this, it's the old "state = bad" argument.
Jaxon Sanchez
I never said the state is bad. You on the other hand implied it is good. You're pilpuling Hans.
Levi Williams
>What's Jow Forums's opinion on the death penalty for things other than rape and murder (i.e. where they really are a deterrent)? I think it does not work as a deterrent. I would not use it for drugs. would use it for 2 murders or more, would use it for "classical" rape (not we got drunk so it was rape, rape) and pedos. also would use it in cases were negligence caused mass death, for example architect half assed his job so an airport roof fell down on bunch of people.
Hudson Edwards
Here the death penalty exists. Not sanctioned by the state of course and not enforced by police. However it exists. We dont wait for or expect justice by the state, we do it ourselves. If you behave and are an ok person with us you can live a great live. If you come here and cause trouble you will die, by us. Very simple.
Tyler Gutierrez
>They do? its probably fear that by some accident it would one day be them who gets executed.
Oh yes, in Germany (and I imagine the rest of Western Europe) the death penalty is very unpopular. I think it's mainly due to indoctrination in schools and by the media.
Nathaniel Bennett
So if you have a good state, where's the problem in putting boundless trust in it?
Jeremiah Young
>if you have a good state Name one in history. Tribal associations like the early Roman Republic don't count.
Brody Smith
No, where can I read about this?
It doesn't work as a deterrent for murders and rapes because people who commit these crimes expect to not be caught - if they're caught their lives are over anyway, doesn't matter if they're being locked up or killed. It works as a deterrence for "minor" crimes (compared to murder/rape) like drug dealing and tax evasion (although I wouldn't want tax evaders to be executed, just giving examples) that are being done with a risk/reward calculation. You bring up a great point with negligence, did you know that in ancient Egypt doctors who caused the death of their patients due to malpractice were killed? There has to be an option to contractually eliminate the negligence penalty in some cases that are so risky no one would take them otherwise, though.
This would work in an optimal state governed by honest people
In today's reality, you would get framed and death sentenced if you did something the >democratic< government does not like
Elijah Sanchez
So state=bad? hurr hurr
What makes a state "good" or "bad" anyway?
Isaiah Barnes
>negligence That one is going to be tricky because in such cases its often hard to tell if there was real negligence or if someone taking a fall. It would not work for doctors or any job were you can't objectively call an outcome but in architecture and few other jobs its pure math and what worked/failed once will keep doing so. >these crimes expect to not be caught all criminals expect not to be caught. use it for "minor" crimes and what used to be easy confrontations will turn into nothing to lose last stands. >if they're caught their lives are over anyway They don't see it that way.
Adrian Fisher
A person locked up can continue to try and prove their innocence. The problem is of course false convictions. To convict someone of murder you do not need to be absolutely certain they did it, only reasonably certain. If we changed it to something that was only used when there was absolute undeniable proof then it would be one thing, but we dont do that.
The death penalty is not a deterrent, people murder all the time. In fact if you are actually intending to do such a thing then life imprisonment when you know theres no chance of proving yourself innocent might be even worse than death penalty. Humans do not accurately weigh risk, and most people think they are clever enough to get away with crimes.
Locking people up for long durations is also not a good system. It was introduced under the idea of reforming people but weve obviously thrown that idea out. I think we should go back to corporal punishment, some lashes, maybe more modern forms of pain infliction, that sort of thing. This would have better deterrent potential than time in prison for smaller crimes.
Connor Martin
>This would have better deterrent potential than time in prison for smaller crimes. Don't they do that in turkey? I recall some human rights case about a 14 year old being beaten with sticks for a small crime. it does not seem to be working. There are likely other issues but my brain is fried right now
Jonathan Hill
>all criminals expect not to be caught. use it for "minor" crimes and what used to be easy confrontations will turn into nothing to lose last stands.
I disagree. I used to be friends with some small scale criminals and they knew they'd either get a slap on the wrist or a minor punishment that can be used as a way to redeem themselves. For drug dealers especially it's addict logic: "I'm just going to do it until I fall flat on my face, then I'm going to use the punishment as a way to redeem myself, get clean and live an honest life." They wouldn't have done what they did if they knew it would cost them their lives.
Maybe I should've made it clearer that I wasn't even talking about the death penalty for murderers. I don't have a hard stance on this, if you want to you can lock them up for life instead. I was talking about other crimes were the death penalty actually works as a deterrence (see the earlier reply in this post and ).
>Locking people up for long durations is also not a good system. It was introduced under the idea of reforming people but weve obviously thrown that idea out. I think we should go back to corporal punishment, some lashes, maybe more modern forms of pain infliction, that sort of thing. This would have better deterrent potential than time in prison for smaller crimes.
I agree.
Landon Rivera
Death penalty is needed for degenerates and people who cause serious damage to decent folks
People have to understand that death penalty will kill a few people after that all the other degenerates will get the message then stop doing degenerate stuff
And the rules that will end up with death penalty will not be rules that you can break by accident
Carson Edwards
>And the rules that will end up with death penalty will not be rules that you can break by accident
Yes, exactly. You don't just beat a family father to a cripple bound to a wheelchair without provocation by accident. In Germany we had a couple of these cases where the culprits (nearly all of them foreigners, of course) were let go on probation because "they were getting their life on track, soon to be fathers, just got an apprenticeship, [...]". It's our very own version of dindus.
Aaron Williams
>They wouldn't have done what they did if they knew it would cost them their lives. let us agree to disagree. I too know some drug addicts and they have the outlook that you are talking about but also have the "I won't be caught" outlook. They are constantly waiting for reforms that will decriminalize their actions or new politicians that will pardon them. They don't want clean lives because they think they are not doing anything wrong. death penalty is going to have its own workarounds, so if people don't fear 7 years in jail for possession,transportation,etc they won't start with death penalty. some are really disconnected from reality, I know a guy who was getting 5 years in jail and was offered a deal to take 2, he refused because he felt he should get only 6 months. It was like his 6th offence and he usually got saved by his dads connections
Levi Hughes
>deterrence but when is such a time? jaywalking? torrenting is probably punishable, would you stop if it was punishable by death or would you just start ignoring the law in general? death penalty is good for saving state funds but not much else. There is also the proportionality of punishment to talk about (which is one of the pillars of current justice system) and there is also desperation to talk about, fear of eventual punishment vs needs of the day
Levi Thompson
>stop doing degenerate stuff That is not how degeneracy works. If you could stop, you would not have started and only a very small % would live like the "pray away" gays
Kayden Rivera
let go for good or out on bail? I had a case were a guy who extorted money from a pharmacist and also had illegal possession of firearms got out on bail because his kid got into a car accident
Christopher Stewart
A man needs to man up and be a man. From 18/19 yr olds you are a man. Fuck the state and police and temporary EU justice system. Some truths and way of doing things are ancient and passed down by conservative tradition from father to son and senior family members to younger family members. Like honour and pride, and defending yourself. No court can give me the justice i want, so i do it myself. If you infringe my rights or space or touch me or my relatives or close friends or trusted people we know then you will recive justice very fast. Its always been like this here, and always will. Systems and governments come and go, we never change. We trust nobody, and expect nothing. We do it all ourselfs. We provide for our family and look after each other. Many people should and could learn basic values from us once again and become real males.
Lucas Martinez
>let us agree to disagree. Sure, probably also differs from case to case. Might serve as a deterrence for some, others might be too far down the rabbit hole.
>but when is such a time? When the crime is about profit, not passion. With the death penalty the expected value of the gamble of not being caught will certainly not be positive. People who commit crimes for profit will move to a different country.
Leo Russell
For bigger crimes, like murder and rape, there should be a death penalty a month after conviction.
For lesser crimes, like drug dealing and thievery, the death penalty will be randomly applied, depending on the severity, so drug dealers have a 40% chance of being executed, thiefs 10%, etc.
Drakon did nothing wrong
Logan Sanders
>When the crime is about profit would work for most. may hurt business because some elements often march fraud (at some stages) so they mat just chose not to risk it
Noah Bennett
Buthurt hungarian trying to rewrite history. Stop trying to leach onto Romanian achievements and personalities.
Gavin Richardson
>Why do so many people have such an instinctively negative reaction towards the death penalty? Because they are evil, stupid, and disobedient. They also hate God and the earthly authority that He has ordained.
Justin Garcia
I prefer exile to a labor colony rather than death penalty. There is always a chance that the guy is innocent.
Angel Jackson
>There is always a chance that the guy is innocent. So? He still gets punished. Just accept the fact that life isn't always fair. If a person is found guilty that's it, they should be treated as such.
Joshua Thompson
>labor colony yeah but what effects would that have on the economy? labor colony means cheap labor, cheap labor means less pay for the worker, less pay means more crime,etc
Carson Gonzalez
Because women naturally find these people more attractive because they are little more than animals hardwired to lust for the "alpha" in the case of the modern beta male it is because they believe that in following women's stance they will receive the poon. Again, it is all animal instincts blocking reason. Once we would kill even criminal children, purifying ourselves through bloodletting, no more.
Joseph Kelly
prisoners are a tiny % of the pop, their effect on labor is non-existent.
James Sanders
I believe in the death penalty only for traitors.
For this purpose we will need new laws, new courts, and a new infrastructure of military testing and media dissemination to deal with the massive numbers of potential condemned we will have in Germany. In any case, hunting down the condemned will be done as a test for new military hardware, typically combat drones, and the unclassified death-by-robot executions will be videorecorded and broadcast.
I would greatly expand the definition of treason to include most crimes that are committed with an anti-national motive, or to advance the interests of foreigners. For example, buying drugs and using drugs would be treason if the only source for them comes from overseas or criminal networks run by foreigners. Buying anything from a foreign criminal drug dealer would be punishable as a treasonous offense and the German convicted of such an offense would be publicly executed with death-by-robot and his execution televised.
But for the most part, drug-using degenerates are not necessarily treasonous and in any case would only make up a small number of the traitors we would execute. Propaganda-spreaders, agents of foreign interests, and spies would be at the top of the list of people to be executed by death-by-robot.
