My sister's argument for open borders is that American imperialism fucked up Latin American countries, so because of that we have a duty to help those people. With things like the Contras under Reagan she kind of has a point...
How can I refute her argument on that? I've already brought up that there's lots of lower class people already in the USA that need help (welfare and jobs and housing etc), like black communities. So she withdrew her issue with the "take our jerbs" thing.
I suppose you could compare it to a "Reparations" argument she's making. All I can think of writing this post now is that we aren't responsible for the sins of previous generations of Americans. I'm sure she'd respond to that by just saying just because we aren't responsible doesn't mean we can't help them.
US imperialism stopped the rest of south America from ending up like Cuba: backwards, evil dictatorships stuck in 1950's tech where people do the craziest things to escape
Christian Bailey
this, it's economy runs on sex tourism
Kevin Ward
You can easily shut her up if you ask her if she would prefer to live in Latin America or in the US. Then point out that if the borders remain open, Latin America will just come to US.
Brayden Williams
Mostly BS Latin America countries were already shitty before the cold war. It has a lot more to do with genes and culture.
Wyatt Miller
>duty Show me where is says that and not take care of our own. The government isn't a worldwide charity and they have their own government. Multiculturalism is the death of all culture.
Adam Richardson
desu she's right, America fucked up so much of the world, and you are a nation of mutts anyway, you should take in refugees.
Europe on the other hand has dindunuffin for the last 60 years, so we shouldn't.
Henry Gray
and sweet, sweet cigars
Gavin Richardson
That sort of Nationalist argument, "well we should make sure our country at least doesn't turn to shit" or however nicely you want to phrase that, doesn't really hold stock among internationalist leaning leftists.
They don't see issues in terms of 1 nation at a time, they see it as a collective struggle that we're all in together.
She would probably call such a sentiment selfish, which let's be honest it kind of is. That doesn't make it less valid though of course I don't want my country to turn to shit like Nicaragua but as far as convincing leftists that argument doesn't work.
The argument has to justify closing borders to people who certainly will be better off here than where they are without seeming selfish. Not sure how you can possibly help other countries in this day and age though.
Maybe make the argument that open borders encourages intelligentsia from other countries who could help their own people leave and create a brain drain?
Jack Walker
>Europe on the other hand has dindunuffin for the last 60 years, so we shouldn't.
>colonialism I'm positive your leftists point to it all the time to justify their insane policies.
James Murphy
>american imperialism fucked up latin america WTF more like helped. America has always been anti imperialistic and opposed the Spanish Imperialism in South America. What is the Monroe Doctrine.
Lucas Baker
Did she give you any examples?
Cooper Murphy
>Latin America countries were already shitty before the cold war. >It has a lot more to do with genes and culture. proofs? also didn't american exceptionalism start before the cold war?
I'm fairly positive at the very least american corporations were involved in latin america, if not the American Deep State actively overthrowing governments
Xavier Fisher
>American imperialism fucked up Latin American countries >Not Spanish imperialism You could always buy her a book, user
Aiden Baker
no, but she has admitted that she isn't well versed on the topic and was a bit annoyed that i'm kind of forcing the topic on her
she already goes to a california university and is turned off of turboleftists, i'm trying to make her finish that redpilling and turn her into more of a conservative
Ethan Kelly
Why would you want to invite people into your home when they hate you for years of mistreatment?
Luke Brown
>Thoughts Jow Forums?
If your beliefs can't stand the scrutiny of someone as amicable as a family member, than you have no business calling yourself 'redpilled'.
You believe random shit that you can't even explain to yourself.
Christopher Lee
Yeah, I said for the last 60 years. Almost no Britons are alive from the days of the Empire except for the very oldest. On the other hand your country is still actively fucking the world up as we speak.
Ethan Harris
In some cases that's actually true. Chile is one example. Only retards think they'd be better off with Allende instead of Pinochet. But still, even in cases in which the US really fucked up, in the end it doesn't really mean anything as the country was probably already shit back then. US influence is not the reason Latin America is poor.
Christian Roberts
>>Not Spanish imperialism >WTF more like helped. America has always been anti imperialistic and opposed the Spanish Imperialism in South America. What is the Monroe Doctrine.
That's a good argument, huh. I wonder what she'd say to that. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't go so far as to claim collective white responsibility for such things but who knows.
You can't discount countries like Chile and Nicaragua (and Argentina? I forget) though, where we quite literally overthrew elected governments to put in dictators.
Camden Ortiz
>Why would you want to invite people into your home when they hate you for years of mistreatment? Leftists think they can change their minds.
It's why women are leftists more than men. Chicks love thinking "oh I know he's abusive, but I can change him!!!!".
Why haven't we made a step-by-step argument plan to redpill people yet Jow Forums fucking hell
Juan Ward
Why does she want to ruin her children's future so that she can "atone" for something she had no part in the first place? It is 100% against her interests to do this and will ruin any hope for her kids to have a good quality of life. Doing something so obviously against your own self interest/that of your future offspring is a sure sign of brainwashing.
Robert Murphy
Careful user. Everyone knows Spanish people are white
>Yeah, I said for the last 60 years. Almost no Britons are alive from the days of the Empire except for the very oldest. On the other hand your country is still actively fucking the world up as we speak. According to a leftist like my sis, that's irrelevant. She would say we still hold a responsibility to help such countries because we have the capacity to do so.
I'm not saying your wrong, just that your argument would sound selfish to a leftist. I wouldn't mind admitting purely that I'm selfish and don't care about 3rd world countries and don't want them polluting my country but that won't convince other people to come to our side.
We need a better argument than "slavery isn't our generations fault".
William Miller
The answer is that you're not helping them, you're helping rich capitalist elites acquire unlimited cheap labor.
Tyler Scott
>protecting your extended family is seflish
She should not be allowed to vote.
Xavier Sanders
In South America the influence of the US was somewhat limited before the cold war (when it comes to serious political interference). In Central America the US indeed had a significant influence. Still, the only countries that were more developed were the ones with higher % of European immigrants back then (Cuba, Argentina, Uruguay). In fact, Argentina had a gdp per capita higher than countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal... And Europe went throught two would wars in the period.
Robert Thompson
Helping people is good. That’s a fact. But there should be a limit, a set amount of people we take in a year. We can handle 10,000. 1 million? 10 million? 300 million? What if we had the population of our country, 300 million come in as immigrants. Can we as a nation afford it fiscally? We’re 20 trillion in debt and the days of the U.S. Dollar global dominance is in its final stages. Plus with technology advancing rapidly, many current jobs are going to be automated and eliminated. If we have ZERO immigrants come in in the next 20 years, we are going to go through a rough transition phase. Now add in all these people with no skills and will rely on government handouts for the foreseeable future and it’s a grim grim future. I find the easiest way to argue with lefties is ask where all this money will come from.
Ayden Butler
Tell her that it is not the law that we are held accountable for the deeds of others or prior generations. Bluntly, she may not be held accountable for her parents crimes for example, and anyone telling her otherwise is sowing misplaced guilt to manipulate her.
Further, tell her that importing these people only causes wage stagnation and is the open goal of the very richest in our world. That importing them into our country doesn't really make their lives better in the long run but instead makes everyone poorer, and you can show her cost of living versus wages and stagnation to drive the point home.
Finally, the more obvious one being, that no one or a group is entitled to the lands of another people. That is the mindset of a conqueror and if she honestly feels guilty then she needs to pull her head out of her ass for being so easily manipulated by people looking to steal her land and country from her.
Christopher King
>Helping people is good. That’s a fact. But there should be a limit, a set amount of people we take in a year. We can handle 10,000. 1 million? 10 million? 300 million? But we still have people in our own country who need help more. We should have 0 immigrants until we've fixed our own problems.
Jeremiah Hernandez
Is she offering up her pussy as reparations to Central Americans?
Ayden Jones
>fucked up I dare say, USA just cant fuck up as much as commies do even if they try. I will take united fruit over Castro any time, and he is the one with human face.
Lucas Davis
America's wealth, though vast, is not limitless. It seems like short sighted thinking to me to have totally open borders. Seriously do people actually think this is a good idea? Controlled immigration is one thing but to open the floodgates would just ensure that nobody has nice things.
Even assuming the very best of all immigrants and thinking they want jobs and want to be valid contributors to our society runs into the problem that a large increase in cheap labor will lower wages for everyone. Assuming the worst then they will be a drain on our already too generous welfare system.
I don't care if people want to immigrate here. Fine. Great. Go through the proper channels and realize that it's just reality that not everybody gets a chance. Life's not fair
Isaiah Phillips
Honestly OP. There should be only one thing you take away from this experience. Women shouldn't be allowed to vote. I've never met a right wing woman who has come to right wing positions on her own. It's always an exact replica of what their husbands positions are. You remove the right wing husband, which is all too common these days, and women turn hard left never to come back.
Jaxon Johnson
I could try and just go back to the morality and "stop feeling guilty" track but that seems the hardest
She has problems getting a bf to begin with which sucks for her, but that's unrelated. She's not very feminine to say the least, she's a really strong athlete, and she's also very political.
John Bell
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Ayden Lee
Women shouldn't be allowed to speak about politics. Slap her and tell her to help your mother cooking.
Bentley Cook
Regardless, it is a mistake to use your immigration policies to "pay for your sins". The immigration policy of a country should be focused primality to the benifit of the citizens of that country, not as a virtue signaling opportunity (which in some cases is based on false pretenses). Then you have the massive overreprentation of migrants when it comes to crime and welfare. The US (and Europe) already pay a lot of foreign aid.
Henry Rivera
>Even assuming the very best of all immigrants and thinking they want jobs and want to be valid contributors to our society runs into the problem that a large increase in cheap labor will lower wages for everyone. Assuming the worst then they will be a drain on our already too generous welfare system. Ok say a leftist agrees with this sentinment, it's not that hard and as I said earlier I've already mentioned that it drives down wages for us Americans. She's even admitted that she realizes it fucks us up in that aspect.
However....how would you propose to help other countries to satisfy leftists' need for benevolence when dealing with foreigners then, from a distance? She's thinking of joining the Peace Corps for example. Would you just say redistribute more monies into those sort of programs of Foreign Aid? Clearly on an individual level a single immigrant will have a better life overall if they find their way into the USA than if they just got the benefit of some Foreign Aid program.
This is what I'm talking about when I refer to the "selfish" argument.
Justin Jackson
>But still, even in cases in which the US really fucked up, in the end it doesn't really mean anything as the country was probably already shit back then. US influence is not the reason Latin America is poor. Explain why it is then if you would. Also how could countries like Canada, Mexico, and the USA help our southern neighbors besides just opening our borders to needy peoples from the south.
Gavin Roberts
Help them how exactly? By letting in their excess human mass? It does not solve any sort of problems, even if the whole population of LA moves to USA - it will create one big shithole, humanity as a whole will become poorer.
Dominic Thomas
>She's thinking of joining the Peace Corps Shit OP you gotta redpill her asap >She gonna die down in niggerland
Gavin Mitchell
tell her that since she thinks niggers can't succeed without the token help of the ebil white man, she's a fuckin rayciss
Noah Gomez
>The US (and Europe) already pay a lot of foreign aid. A Leftist would probably say this is insufficient I think. A strict expansionist conservative would say let's overthrow countries that have bad governments, but nowadays that's a no-no and such politics are going out of fashion except in deep states of governemnts, more in the shadows than openly like 100-200 years ago.
Most right wing or centrist political movements these days have not addressed the issue of how to most efficiently and productively help other countries that are not doing well.
Aaron Lewis
Tell her embracement of feminism and abortion has killed more than an military operation carried out by the USA
If she doesn't want to be selfish, look up the average income in Latin America, subtract it from her income, and ask her to donate the result to Soros' human trafficing ring. That would be a real, palpable difference she would be making. If she refuses point out that she's basically growing fat on the fruits of American Imperialism, all the while pretending to hate it.
Or you could save your breath and stop arguing with a leftist. Just pray that the civil war comes after you grow old and die, and not before, so that you don't have to shoot her.
Liam Brooks
then ask what makes those poor countries worthy of our hard-earned gibs. sounds pretty selfish to me desu
Camden Morgan
>Tell her embracement of feminism and abortion has killed more than an military operation carried out by the USA she's not a radfem
if i had to guess she's more of a left libertarian, which i myself identified as before the Trump era
left libertarians are as a rule pretty open minded and giving as opposed to a centrist/right libertarian who might be more prone to nationalism
I could make the culture argument but I don't want her to think i'm a race realist, she probably wouldn't forgive me
i live in the city right now with homless and shit everywhere so she understands why i'm becoming more intolerant though
Jason Torres
>She's thinking of joining the Peace Corps for example That is actually a great idea. Seeing some people in their natural habitat is a massive redpill.
As for the help - suggest to overthrow their corrupt government and impose benivolent AI rule.
Matthew Smith
have her look up the kalergi plan
Josiah Harris
>Explain why it is then if you would I told you already. Genes are a major factor. It is a reality the vast majority of latin americans aren't prepared to accept. Latin America received an insane amount of african slaves. And the more European parts of latin america are doing far better. Culture also plays a role as well (but culture itself is somewhat influenced by genes).
>Also how could countries like Canada, Mexico, and the USA help our southern neighbors besides just opening our borders to needy peoples from the south. There isn't much the US can do. That should be an issue of the governments of latin american countries. If the US accepts anyone who is poor, your country is over.
I agree. But leftists don’t have solutions. Ask them for specifics they’ll look like a deer in headlights.
John Barnes
>If she refuses point out that she's basically growing fat on the fruits of American Imperialism, all the while pretending to hate it. our dad made some money in crypto so we're all going through cognitive dissonance at the moment
our dad raised us to be very very anti-imperalist, and he's also anti-zionist and a 911 truther global warming woke etc, he's aware of Soros even if my sis might not be
my dad's on my side as far as immigration and borders, which is why he didn't retire to belize or some random shithole when he'd initially considered it
just have to convince my sis now, and I think I can, I just have to form a better argument
Ayden Sanders
it's not like they were on their way to stardom before that
Jordan Kelly
50 years ago, maybe. they've had five decades to clean up their acts and they still haven't gone anywhere
Sebastian Collins
Overthrow governments is a mistake for the most part. It usually leads to more chaos. The reality is that the US and other developed countries aren't responsible for every third worlder there is.
Jordan Howard
My hunch is that hamstringing our country with totally open borders will long term be far worse for everyone then our current "selfish" ways. I just think that it's masochistic to believe that we need to somehow punish ourselves and enter into an arrangement against our own interests willingly. This is just short sighted and stupid. I'd rather be selfish than stupid. If we somehow fuck up our country then we won't be helping anyone.
Jaxon Brown
>then ask what makes those poor countries worthy of our hard-earned gibs. sounds pretty selfish to me desu "we fucked their countries up" was her argument her second argument was that we can help people who are escaping extreme poverty and such, and she doesn't mind that it comes at the expense of our own people's wellbeing
all this extreme left-extreme right hasn't done her pro-American sentiments any good really, we were raised in bilingualism through school, she even thinks in spanish sometimes she says, i worry she has more camaraderie with Latinos than true blue Americans
that's California for you I guess, rip
Luis King
Ask her how taking in people here is going to help solve their country of origin's problems. Also, explain to her it is far more cost effective and ethical to help people in their homeland than it is to bring them to a completely foreign country and train them in a job that will be automated in 5-10 years.
>we did contra >we Your sister is a dumb bitch, she can hang with the traitors in government.
James Perez
I'll second this
Christian Hall
>have her look up the kalergi plan is the tl;dr that it was the proto-NWO gameplan?
on a quora page a guy posted that nowadays it's being accomplished through homogenizing humanity through unlimited immigration/race mixing, makes sense obviously I'm just trying to think what she (or any leftist for that matter) would think of that
she took a conspiracy class so maybe she'd dig that idea, well shit, maybe i'll take the globalist angle then
I'll run it by my dad first maybe
Jackson Cooper
make them see the hypocrisy of their own arguments. they claim it's selfish of us to want to keep our money when it's just as selfish to forcibly take it away from someone who worked hard for it. if she truly cared about those people she would be down there helping them right now, not spewing leftist bullshit just to make herself feel like a good person. If she brings up gibs for minorities, tell her it's only because she thinks they can't make it on their own. If she brings up rights for women, ask why women are allowed to speak publicly right now. Everything these people say is built on hypocrisy. There was never meant to be any logic to begin with, because the end game of the people who lead these drones is to create enough strife to bring down the old system and make room for a new one.
On second thought, user, don't say anything to her. She'll see soon enough, when the great policies of the left drive this country to complete destruction. When she's bleeding out in the street of her obliterated 90% white neighborhood perhaps she'll change her mind.
Jose Wilson
Maybe you should just stop pussy-footing around and be honest. The lives of people south of the border don’t mean much to you. Their life, or their death, doesn’t carry much weight. So appealing to your emotion is futile. Will you seem heartless to your family? Probably. But we all know that’s not the case, we all have hearts here, they’ve just been hardened.
Aiden Parker
A leftist would say that's just racism. It really is astounding how simple facts like this are still in dispute.
Is there really nothing we can do though? I am skeptical.
>Ask her how taking in people here is going to help solve their country of origin's problems. >Also, explain to her it is far more cost effective and ethical to help people in their homeland than it is to bring them to a completely foreign country and train them in a job that will be automated in 5-10 years. I like this argument.
Hunter Perry
>her second argument was that we can help people who are escaping extreme poverty and such, and she doesn't mind that it comes at the expense of our own people's wellbeing
Even if she doesn't mind that it comes at her own expense it shouldn't give her the right to make that decision for literally everyone else in the country. If she still feels strongly about it then she should do something like join the peace corps, which evidently she is. At least she isn't a hypocrite.
Dylan Gonzalez
She has already made mind that usa should aid, arguments about "not my responsability" will fall in "selfish" category. What is needed is an argument showing any sort of help is doing more harm to recipient.
Levi Martinez
She's right that there's no justification for imperialism and it's always been a Judeo-Masonic plot for world domination. She's wrong though for thinking that we need to somehow pay for the crimes of our ancestors. That's retarded Jew logic. Just show her this: youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
Carson Thompson
>What is needed is an argument showing any sort of help is doing more harm to recipient. this
Liberals: >USA sucks for meddling with other countries Also liberals: >USA should meddle with other countries You can't win with these people
Angel Brooks
>How can I refute her argument on that? Its very simple. Open border plus a welfare state lead to bankruptcy and ruin, and it doesn't help anybody if we destroy ourselves "trying to help".
If she thinks destroying this country is worth temporarily helping a few people, then remind her that she's trying to make that call on behalf of EVERYONE, and that using other people to make sacrifices for you is only "nobility" in the mind of a parasite.
Dominic Gonzalez
>4 billions niggest niggers Oh god
Andrew Mitchell
I hope big game hunting is legal in that timeline
Jose Baker
...
Nicholas Murphy
Tell her that Russia would have had full justification for interfering with the 2016 election (which didn't happen of course) based on shady actions the American government has done in the past and Russia getting its due comeuppance
Caleb Phillips
>My sister's argument for open borders is that American imperialism...
Womp womp
Jesus Christ I should have stopped reading at 'my sister's argument'
Ethan Taylor
about the race thing, probably not
that will likely come as a collective realization at some point, the truth can't remain hidden forever
Austin Cox
It was fucked up long before Reagan. A strong country that protects and holds the interests of its people above all others would not be so easily turned by a foreign power handing out cash and weapons. Before the Sandinista movement, hell, even Bolivarism, most Latin American countries were already ruled by corrupt dictatorships and kleptocracies. The Soviets made a play for them the same way, offering money and weapons in exchange for military bases and political support. If you think South Americans woulda had it better under Soviet-style communism, look at Cuba or even Venezuela today and tell us how wonderful their lives are without US interference.
The Americans simply played it better and more aggressively because they weren't gonna let the Soviets get any more footholds in South America like they did with Cuba.
Nathan Foster
We have no obligation to any foreign nation or race. The only obligation we have is to the people who founded the United States and their descendants. No more, no less.
William Butler
>Open border plus a welfare state lead to bankruptcy and ruin, and it doesn't help anybody if we destroy ourselves "trying to help". >If she thinks destroying this country is worth temporarily helping a few people, then remind her that she's trying to make that call on behalf of EVERYONE, and that using other people to make sacrifices for you is only "nobility" in the mind of a parasite. Now THIS is a fucking argument.
>We have no obligation to any foreign nation or race Moreover they have no obligation to us Flood the nation with them and see how helpful they are when we need them for absolutely anything
Kevin Sullivan
Don't play into this paradigm of what is morally right -- we don't give a fuck about 'should', we will do what's best for us. That's the law of nature, and how we got this far. We were better at it than everyone else. Moral argument blah blah so now we destroy ourselves because it's the right thing to do. Who cares? Fuck off.
advocating a policy of revenge revenge is a sure recipe for violence she sounds like a warmonger
Leo Foster
Wouldn't you be pissed if your country of birth had thus far been one of the most imperialist countries of the modern era? As someone raised to decry abuse of power if I saw it, it was quite a shock as a kid to realize the USA was the 2nd coming of Rome essentially putting both it's own people and those of other lands into a state little better than indentured servitude via debt and use of force to assure obedience. Most of those responsible for the ills of mass immigration and globalism and the degenerative culture we now find ourselves living within are either American or work in conjunction with Americans.
Canada isn't so clean either but certainly to a lesser extent.
>Everything the USA does in foreign countries hurts them >Who's joining the peace core with me? We can take selfies!
Connor Thomas
so she's essentially saying that all should pay for the sins of a few (at the very top).
Ryan Adams
not everything no
yeah i'm gonna make that argument to her i'll also try to bring up the globalist NWO immigration angle, and the cultural differences angle
going to have lunch with her right now so will report back if i'm successfull
Aiden Sanchez
>Why haven't we made a step-by-step argument plan to redpill people yet Jow Forums fucking hell This is actually a great idea. I might start with this and post here to ask for feedback/improvements Thanks user
Joshua Perry
Agree with her then suggest you both find a homeless person in your nearest city and take them in/pay for their shit for humanitarian reasons.
1. Putting an end to globalist fuckery is part of Trump's core platform, so if (((multinationals))) and the CIA are the only things holding Latin America back then things should only get better for them from here on out. 2. Compare Latin America with the United States before said Cold War-era fuckery existed.
Juan Thomas
they have 1950's tech because USA jews were too butt-hurt that Cubans didn't want their country run by jew central banks so they engaged in economic war for 60 years you dumb faggot
