CHANGE MY MIND

WE WERE PLAYING BOTH SIDES WITH PREFERENCE TO THE ALLIES, WE WOULD NEVER JOIN ON HITLERS SIDE, NEVER. BECAUSE SPAIN.

WE THROW SOME PARADES AND WAVED SOME FLAGS TO FOOL YOU IDIOTS

AND IT WORKED

Germany could have won the war and this is the most plausible way they could have done it. Rather then wasting time in the spring of 1941 sending troops into greece, Hitler should have instead invaded Russia. That would have given the Germans ample time to reach moscow before the winter hit. Stalin was in Moscow take the capital city and the nation would have crumbled.

Salazar regime was prior (older) than the Ns regime,the main influence was italy, not germany, specially in the first stages, only after with was the germans, speically in the creation of the portuguese legion. What i'm saying is that, even before NS were in power in germany already those marchs existed in portugal, italy and spain

if not for enigma, rommel would have won in africa; enigma was the biggest allied asset anyway

if churchill would have dropped poison gas on german cities in summer of 44, hitler would have been able to retaliate and kick the allies of the mainland because they had no gas masks. he could then redeploy the whole okw including 12 tank divisions to the eastern front and crush the fragile red army.

in 1941 the german heeresgruppe mitte could have advanced south at the don area instead of advancing to moskau, winter would have not caught them off-guard and they would have been able to encircle another 1 to 2 million soviet soldiers

there are some other things germany could have done and they would have won aswell

Germany could have won the war if it was more willing to create the Moscow-Berlin Axis. The USSR was shockingly compliant to German requests to the point that the diplomats were creaming themselves, but Hitler was too ideologically opposed to Marxism and not realpolitik enough to agree to it.

YEAH BEFORE THE WAR YOU IDIOT, YOU ARE GIVING ME PRE WAR FOOTAGE - ONCE THE WAR STARTED WE BAILED AND MOSTLY HELPED THE ALLIES

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajes_Field#World_War_II

YOU=DUMB

less screetching darkie bitch, and no ideia of what you are talking about.

source?

this. Stalin was perfectly willing to sign a Soviet-German alliance instead of the MR Pact, but Hitler freaked out and told Ribbentrop to scrap it because he was still obsessed with allying Britain instead

Then explain me why did you volunteer to the german side and not to the british side?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

Another 1-2 million probably would have nullified any chance of a winter offensive.

maybe if they actually took moscow instead stopping miles from the Kremlin. Russia was days from surrender but Hitler got greedy and it was enough to allow Russia to rally and the rest is history

Only chance was Hitler seizing the oil fields in Ukraine, but even then it’d be a stretch that the Germans could beat off the Americans and Soviets even with the extra oil

selling tungsten to Britain helped the allies far more than sending 1000 men to Russia helped the axis

As an altistic-history fan myself i've tried many times to come up with a realistic way for Hitler to win the Eastern front. There is NO WAY.
Moscow meant that Hitler would have been forced to, at the most, seek a negotiated victory.
Stalingrad meant that he was going to be defeated.
Kursk meant that said defeat was going to be total.

you know what volunteers are? you know what a neutral country is?

we were literally renting out our military bases so british and american planes could bomb germany but you are on some serious delusion that we secretly wanted to join the axis side - we had to fucking pay lip service to spain and hitler so they they didn't fuck our shit up, yeah we sent 1000 fucking crazy volunteers woopdidoo

we were profiting from both sides of the war, we sold germany a whole lot of tungsten and other resources

Reminder that the Allied bombing of supply lines is what killed the most Jews. Never let it be said that we didn't do our bit.

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Anyway we were jewing both sides of the war while they fucked each other up, why would we want to destroy our own country with stupid Central European chimp out.

it was quite a diplomatic feat.

churchill was a corrupt drunk that was aware of the jews but stopped talking about them when their shekels arrived in his pocket

the bombing of supply lines to create the setup for the nazi evils

dude what,
supply lines are a prime target in any war, It was not to "frame" Germany for killing kikes

The british had a habit of targeting civilian targets because (((they))) wanted to murder germans.

No, you only ve rent your base in the middle of the ocean, at the end of the war when the game was over and you knew it.

But what i'm saying is that you were by ideology axis shifted, there's not even any debate there, it is a fact. Look at history look at your relations with italy spain, germany, look at spanish civil war, look to your regimes and volunteers. You even hav done this img related.

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oh come on like you didn't target civilians...
you asked for totaler krieg after all..

you are totally misinformed, on the western front the germans were more than fair towards the british

youtube.com/watch?v=iwFzm6rZH3o

you still targeted civilians
being slightly more "fair" didn't win you the war

>be Hitler
>get your country destroyed
>everyone hates you
>fake your death
>chip off to Argentina for sloppy sex with spics

>be Churchill
>name the Jew
>kill Jews
>be called a hero forever
>get played by Gary Oldman in a movie

We went to WWI for France as our semi-communist Republican elites back then were pro French and anti British. They were also anti Portuguese so...

Anyway, Spain would boost Hitler's security throughout the Atlantic front but Spain needed to literally import food from the Americas by then, Germany couldn't feed the Spaniards. That is the "entire sun" that Franco asked.

Britain would quickly destroy the Spanish export roots and the Atlantic islands and possessions in Morocco.
Portugal and Spain needed to not go to war for Spain was exhausted and Portugal was to weak to sustain Spain. We mannaged to get our Iberian pact in order and let Northern Euros kill themselves at will.

There was a German plan to take the Peninsula but they would probably be beaten as Portugal would likely fight back with British (and later American) support and the Spanish populace would probably rebel and fight. Of course, with Portuguese, British and later American support.
That would also extend Germany's "operations" and it would almost certainly offer Britain a true continental base for its army: Portugal and Galiza would almost immediately fall to Anglo-Portuguese forces after a brief German push.
The Germans could go well into Portugal, sure. But they would have great difficulty in controlling us, specially if we had British armies around. Why? Because our terrain is not like the Northern European Plain and our infrastructure was shit tier.
Think of Italians in Greece. Now imagine if the Greeks were united.

We were pro British but we prefered not to go into the war (the Brits thought similar) and we were supposed to get along with Hitler as well.

It was a clear "it's not my problem, please leave us alone" case. With British complicity.

>putting ideology before pragmatical geopolitics

Thats why you lost. They were smart enough to see where it was going.

again our big neighbor here at our side was more aligned with hitler than us so we have to tow the line "oh yeah we're so sad for hitlers death too oh no..."

and even if we did share some ideological viewpoints does that fucking mean we must join the war? no, that doesn't mean shit, USA was helping the commies and they are not ideologically aligned, good thing we stayed out instead of wrecking our country because hitler was chimping out

That shit is not pro-Hitlerism. It is pro-stable Portugal.
Fascism or National Catholicism of the day represented stability and bread to the average Portuguese.

We were "Nationalists" not "fascists" or "hitlerians".
Of course there were factions but the cold hard facts of foreign policy dictated we should stand with the Brits and we also should "moderate" Spain and not giving them reasons to join the axis.

While the military help of Italy and Germany was fulcral for the Spanish Nationalist side in their civil war, they wouldn't have gone no where if we allowed the French, British and Soviets to help them from bases in Portugal.

Western Spain soon became very stable Nationalist territory because of us. That was a huge help to Nationalist Spain. Communists and others suddently behaved in a different manner when they realised they couldn't flee to Portugal for they would be handed over to Franco - as so many were.

Kill communists. That was all that it was.

>people actually believe this

jesus

>you only ve rent your base in the middle of the ocean

Because the Brits only requested so when they knew they could secure it and there was no risk of Spain invading us for it.

We did whatever the Brits asked us to do. We had to do so because Britain is the Atlantic power and we had the Islands and a colonial Empire to defend.
From the start of the war that we put our capabilities to help the Brits, hoping they'd allow us to trade with Hitler as they did for we knew we were not that very much important in that clash of titans.

The first priority of the Brits in terms of Portugal in the was was to not open another front by making Spain joining the axis or allowing Hitler to take the Peninsula. That and that he wouldn't control our Atlantic islands.

You were not pro british, in fact your own regime was against british regime (demo),your relations were much better with germans and italians in those years than with any other country,a nd you know that (or you should know). All your para-military organizations were ranked or organizated in the same models, gestapo trained with portuguese police , hitler youth was in portugal hundreds of times, portguese and spanish were in nuremberg in the 30's as honour guests, Just read a book about youw own regime into those decades. At the end of the war you played smart, you were always neutral, but your fav was the anti-comunist or nationalist side (germany and italy) after the eminent defeat you allowed Britain to land there and that and it was about it.

>implying that Stalin wouldn't backstab Hitler once Germany was weakened by years of Allied bombing and install communism to the Atlantic

This, Franco was much more aligned with the Axis and it was pretty much Salazar who kept that fucking manlet neutral.

Had Salazar joined the allies he wouldn't have been able to contribute much militarily and the Portuguese economy was still pretty rekt at that time, meanwhile it almost certainly would have caused Franco to join the Axis.

Some people saw Salazar's failure to directly join the war effort as a betrayal, but it really was the best result all round.

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Bump. Source of pic

They could’ve only won the war if they pushed the soviets back to siberia, morale would be unbelievably low and another civil war could’ve happened. The war was officially over when the invasion of Italy happened just a few weeks after the battle of kursk, from that point on it would be unwinnable.

If France and UK didn't monumentally fucked up in the 30s by not preparing or stopping the remilitarisation of the Rhine and in 39 by not attacking while germans were busy in Poland then germans would have never even be able to launch Barbarossa.

The sheer incompetency of the allies made them believe they could win.

They could have won if they used anti-communist sentiments in most of Eastern Europe and act as a liberation army instead of brutalising slavs like if they were filth and telling them they were basically here to steal all their shits.
Hitler wanted to be a new Napoléon or Caesar but didn't grasp the importance of being perceived as a liberator or a shield against a greater menace (like Caesar did with the Gauls against Germanic tribes or Napoléon with Poland against Austria and Russia).
This changed a bit by necessity when the germans realised they didn't have the manpower to beat russians but it was already too late.

What would the world be like if the germans had won? How much better would our lives be?

Franco despised Hittler, the two countries had vastly competing national intrests. Such an alliance would have been more shaky then the pact of steel. Germany’s view on the”Medditerainian race” would not have helped.

>Germany’s view on the”Medditerainian race” would not have helped.

myths, just read the ns rca policy, they classified spanish, portugese, and italians as aryans (catg 1 and 2) the same as germans.

"To troops, the Spaniards are a crew of ragamuffins. They regard a rifle as an instrument that should not be cleaned under any pretext. Their sentries exist only in principle. They don't take up their posts, or, if they do take them up, they do so in their sleep. When the Russians arrive, the natives have to wake them up. But the Spaniards have never yielded an inch of ground. One can't imagine more fearless fellows. They scarcely take cover. They flout death. I know, in any case, that our men are always glad to have Spaniards as neighbours in their sector."

- Hitler himself

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Maybe but Stalin was cautious. And Soviet communism would be preferable to Jewish led, and British controlled liberalism.

It doesn't matter if they're aryan or not, because Hitler considered meds inferior to nords.

With proper planning and resources to invade the USSR a German-Murican cold war scenario was possible.

Stop watching hollywood propaganda please, but i do believe he considered his own people better than all other's, that's fine, if you don´t love yourself whowill?

Once the Battle of France was over and the British still refused peace, Germany's only hope of victory was to secure enough oil to power its country, occupied countries, and its armies and navies. At that time, the only real source of oil (that the Germans could quickly utilize to their benefit) lay a thousand miles to the East in the Caucasus. Without this oil, there is no chance for Germany to win a prolonged war of attrition with the Western powers.

This is the primary reason Germany attacked the Soviet Union. They got close to the oil, but failed. Realistically, the way for Germany to win is to secure the Caucasus in Barbarossa. By the time of Fall Blau, Germany only had enough oil for a limited offensive in the South.

To add, the primary reason Germany & Italy lost the War in Africa is because the Italian fleet did not have enough oil to power themselves, so for most of the war they sat in port doing fuck all. German access to oil is absolutely crucial to winning the war. Anything about how Germans should have taken Moscow, or Hitler should have listened to his generals is a non-starter.

Spain and Portugal joining the axis while an interesting concept is suicide for the Iberian peninsula. Spain was madly dependent on imports to feed its people and keep the country running and would be blockaded in short order.

The seizure of Gibraltar would certainly make a difference in the North African campaign and it may well have enabled Rommel to beat Britain in Africa & seize the Suez Canal, cutting England off from the majority of its empire.

Indeed, if this happened, and Mussolini had not invaded Greece delaying Operation Barbarossa, Germany may have beaten the Soviet Union eventually and made a peace with England.

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