Why is Catalonia not allowed to be free?

CUP is the majority of the independentist movement? That's why you have such low scores in reading comprehension.

Catalonian identity was invented at the end of the 19th century as a mean of political leverage. Same with basques. The modern basque language is artificial, it's a mesh of very different dialects spoken in isolated mountains.
If anything, Spain should be broken into the original kingdoms: Leon, Castilla, Navarra and Aragón.

Soros is funding the movement to allow a part of Spain to ship the “refugees” into. No one in Spain wants them, but Catalunian people do. The refugees all go to Valencia and Barcelona, not Sevilla or Murcia for example.

I wouldn't mind getting every refugee and immigrant into catalonia, and then give them the independence (after building an appropiate wall in aragon and valencia). I want to see that shitstorm.

Same reason why Texas can't succeed from the Union. Spain's Constitution forbids regions from declaring independence through a referendum, just like the U.S Constitution

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Funny enough, when Texas was founded, catalonian identity wasn't a thing.

Most of the nation's are from the 19th Century, but I understand what you mean. Still, none of that will ever happen, Spain will remain like this, Catalonia has no power at all to try a real independence and Spain is not an advanced democracy like the UK to try a referendum.

catacucks btfo
youtube.com/watch?v=vC6U_A6AjAs

Boy I sure love being a backwards country.

" fuck anarchists, crypto-lefties and the EU."
Well those are the main components of Catalonia ...

The only people organizing independence are socialists and far leftists who embellze millions of euros and would have made millions more. About half of all business are owned by them. It was all about making money.

So essentially Texas has more claim to independence then Catalonia? I assumed for a nation to have the right of self determination they had to have a seperate language, distinct culture and distinct identity that could qualify as different then the country ruling them. Wouldnt catalonia qualify in these terms? Even if the indentity was manufactured a century ago as you've claimed? Im not saying i think catalonia should be independent of spain but just curious if they would even have grounds for it.

Because it has always been part of Spain.
There has never been a time when Catalunya was not part of the Kingdom of Aragon, and the Kingdom of Aragon and Castille merged through marriage.

It would be like Bavaria wanting to leave because Germany joined the EU.

Spanish gov made debts at ECB for the projected productivity of the Catalans.

Spain is a containment zone for ugly women

You mean the Spanish government made projections based on the productivity of Spain, and it's citizens.

Big tetas

>Ugly woman

Jilted backpacker detected.

>Why is germany still occupying bavaria?
Bavaria is free to leave any time, really. There is a legitimate Bavarian independence movement and if the Bavarian legislator were to vote for an indy ref, Berlin couldn't do jack shit to stop it and wouldn't do anything really.

Germany is the most federalized state in Europe formed from kingdoms and separate Germanic nation states.

Free from what? They do not want to be free from the EU, the immigrants or the global financial system. I live in Barcelona and it's commie hell.

>every single street wants to become its own country..

Yes, but the difference is, there actually was a time Bavaria existed. Catalunya never existed. It was always part of the Kingdom of Aragon.

I have met recently some Catalans and said them they are communists

I mean debt on base of projected productivity. That is what all nations do. Literally enslavement.

>Catalunya never existed.
You sure?

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Because they, much like Ireland, Scotland or Wales may well be nationalists but are ultimately socialists; so somewhere down the line they subscribe to the society of god's chosen & the Goyim.

What this means is getting your independence, kicking out the ruling powers and people and then promptly replacing yourselves with the most despicable nigger ghouls in a less than a generation.

Spain for example does not want another Zimbabwe next to it, understand?

>retard who doesn’t know shit spouts shit
just stop and read before you act as if you anything. secession is constitutionally illegal, referendums on that are illegal.
the Bayernpartei is a meme and would be illegal the moment it got any weight.

faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/bverfg-urteil-bayern-darf-deutschland-nicht-verlassen-14603200.html

My understanding is that Catalans have the lowest birthrate in Spain (excluding first/second gen immigrants) so it's a check that won't be cashed anytime soon.

As an independent country, it has never existed, it always was part of the Kingdom of Aragon.

>faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/bverfg-urteil-bayern-darf-deutschland-nicht-verlassen-14603200.html

Our constitution can easily be changed. There is also international law which has a long tradition of overriding German law. International law dictates the freedom of the sovereign people to establish their own free states for their kids' future.

Even there they swore Loyalty to France, and planned to be incorporated.

What's the Catalan Republic then?

Technically, Bavaria was always part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nations. Doesn't mean it wasn't the Kingdom of Bavaria too.

If you think a country unreasonably occupies land you can bet your ass it's tactical.

All the religion and political movements are just minor players. In the end it's all about military position and money.

>our constitution can easily be changed
again, read before you talk, retard. read up ewigkeitsklausel, art 79 section 3.

article 20 of the constitution,can’t be changed

If they want freedom they can fight for it with weapons and they will lose.

The joke is on you. They use to lend money on the heads of projected children too.

Completely different, seriously.

Catalans had respected language, and their own laws under the Kingdom of Aragon, but that's it.

The Catalan republic(1641) was a repsonse to the dreadful management of the principality, and the famine resulting.

There was a minor insurrection and then the Catalans voted (in their republic" ) to be reincoporated into Spain.

At no point was it "independent", it was about trying to secede into France, obviously assisted by the scumbag Frogs.

Catalonian here, I want to be free from the EU and get rid from corrupt politicians. The same people who push for this idiotic separatist movement, are a bunch of corrupt politicians, have pushed for mass importation of africans, feminism and a bunch of retarded shit that I won't go into detail. The supporters themselves are delusional, irrational and some of the most cucked specimens that I have ever seen.
Used to be a catalonian nationalist, they make me feel ashamed of what have we become but this has opened my eyes to how much we have been lied to about Spain and our history.

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>Occupation
Kek! They are Spanish either they like it or not

This exactly.
They want Spaniards out, Blacks in.
If it was a true Catalan nationalist movement, with all that that entails, I'd support them. But Catalonia without Catalans seems pretty pointless.

Have the spannish ever oppressed or killed cataloians before? maybe in the in the time of franco, but now?
I don't really see the point

>maybe in the in the time of franco,
Even this is a fucking meme. Franco killed much more Andalusian peasants than he did Catalans. He restricted their language, copying exactly what France was doing because he was caught by the centralised state virus.

Regarding violent oppression, it wouldn't be anything near the scale of UK Ireland for example.

They depict other spaniards as racially inferior savages, while at the same time importing the shittiest and most useless africans and pay them to breed. Cuckery level of canada, germany or even sweden.

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this.

>69260▶
>
lol he gotcha manolo.

And wasn't the spanish identity also invented? lol, such thing as Spain does not even exists. Just a territory.

Look at this post/modern structuralist over here.

Spain is a combination of all of us yet. Specifically the Kingdom of Aragon, and the Kingdom of Castille. Using the "Hisponola" myth of Roman times they formed Spain.

The whole creation "myth" was about retaking Hispania from the Moorish invaders. Catalonia has historically been always part of the Kingdom of Aragon, and laterally Spain.

Yup, As I said:

If the current migrant crisis and their targeting of specifically the Catalonian region of Spain to make landfall and infect/degrade the wealth/working class population all over the EU isn't evidence enough to show you just how stupid, weak, and ineffectual communist faggots are then you seriously deserve to get strung the fuck up because nothing is going to teach your dumb brainwashed ass.

But Ireland is richer per capita than UK.

What's the latest on that mophead Poo-gemont? Is he in court?

Had a Socialist government for about two weeks and they are doing their best to let him go. Cancelled the extradition order, and he's back in Brussels.

He killed commies you victim seeking loser.

well, murcia is a shithole

I mean, he's not wrong, but you got the point: most of identities were "invented" (or realized, as I would say; romantic philosophies such as Hegel's and Fichte's, and even Herder played a major role on this, I think. If you are interested, we had Torras i Bages in Catalonia as this kind of nationalist philosopher) during the XIXth century, even the spanish one. The difference (and please, everyone understranmd this once and for all) is that this whole spanish identity doesn't even make sense: there's no linguistic unity in Spain, nor racial unity, or political, or economical. The only "unity" that there is is the religious one: we're all catholics. But, still, there's no unity, since the aforementioned Torras i Bages was a catholical high rank priest, radically oposed to his spanish collegues.

>occupation
Sage

Identities mean nothing, borders are just random lines drawn on a map, let's import every single nigger.
youtu.be/t5NuD-OwzN8

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It's difficult to show you this grounds in a written way. You should come and see: as I said above, Spain is just a failed state. It does not make sense. As I see this whole thing myself, it's not a matter of the grounds we could have to becom independent as it is a matter of the lack of groundings we have to keep ourselves in Spain.

However, if you want concrete examples, let me know.

Haven't said so, Manolo. But I'm sorry I triggered you so much by saying that your dear Spain is just a bullshit myth.
Go grab a fucking book. Average Manolo.

I may be a post-structuralist as you say, but I least I know what does this means, unlike you. And persisting in my so called "post-structuralist" attitude, let me ask you someting.

So you say that the unity that (in fact, you think) exixts between Spain and Catalonia is based in this whole medieval affairs. Cool.

What I think is that this unity does not exist (even though it did, as you've showed us), and that the reason for this has to be find in the Modern era (XVth century and so on; e.g.: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelets ).

So we have two different, mutually exclusive, oppinions here. I think I'm right, though, for the following reasons:

>1. National identities, as I told above to some user, were all invented ("forged", if you want and makes you not calling me a "post-structuralist) during the modernity (specially Illustration and Romanticism, XVIIIrd and XIXth centuries), so it's way more plausible to explain nationalistic phenomena from the modern era, as I do.

>2. I'm not sure what are you doing here; are you explaining why does an unity between Spain and Catalonia exists, or are you trying to justify why it should exist? Are you describing or prescribing? If you're describing, you're describing something that clearly does not exist anymore (just turn on the TV or but the newspaper, ffs). If you're prescribing, you're trying to ground a political project in this medieval history that, as I said, can't explain actual nationalistic phenomena, and deliberately ignoring what came after this medieval events (that I do not doubt).

I'm really looking forward to see where this discussion takes us, user.

The point is there is no historic reason for Catalonia to exist. The modern notion of Catalan indpeendence is basically a bunch of tax dodger families stirring up morons in Lleida in a hope of paying less.

A Basque nationalist I can respect, a Catalan one never. It's a joke of a movement, split into all sorts of leftists deluge. Independence is taken, not given, user.

Put on your big boy shorts and do something about it, otherwise shut the fuck up, and vive Espana like the rest of us.

>Tfw. I was a Catalan seperatist for years.

>I know what it means

I sadly fell for the political theory meme at Uni user. I know many pointless things.

Indipendence is in fact a dramatical act that can be justified only if there is an existential threat to the survival of a people.

This is why Lombardy (in the sense of Padania) must become indipendent. The alternative is the total annhilation of the authoctonous Lombard population through Siculo-neapolitan and third world ethnical substitution.

Death to 'italy'

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The point, that you seem not to get, is that Spain is what does not have any reason to exist. You'll tell me (as you already did) "muh Catholical Kings", but 1) what a shitty reason to stay together; 2) you are ignoring (as I said) all the modern history that suggests otherwise.

And you try to dishonor the roots of catalanism saying that the greed was the start of it all. Nice, I, as a good "post-structuralist", I'll tell you that you may be right, but that every start is dishonorable (actually that was what Foucault said in Nietzsche, la Généalogie, la Histoire, so it may turn out, to my surprise, that I'm unironically a post-structuralist lol). You can't be so retarded to believe that this union between Castille and Aragon was grounded on any more honorable desire.
And I think you've read quite a lot of history, but little of catalanist authors. There's a long tradition of thought, hidden both by our shitty and greedy politicians (because it may be too radical) and by your even worse ones.

With an entire people mobilized for indipendence, it would have been more than enough for Puigdemont to order Mossos to defend the government and distribute weapons to civilians. The whole thing would not have lasted more than it did in Slovenia in 1991.

But these emasculated politicians do not understand even the basics of what power is. They prefered to enter a contest of who were able to repeat the word 'democracy' more times and the results were obviously none. Sorry. freedom has a price, it does not come from legal gibberish or whining.

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I switched to my phone, though.

And let me ask, what does suggest you that I want to recieve our independence and not to take it? As a hard line nationalist (that's what I find it funny to be called a post-structuralist, but it is possible that I have accepted something by this french authors; it would be retarded not to do so having read them) I'm the most critical dude with this whole Procés bullshit on earth.

May not reply, I'm going to have lunch.

looks like ben affleck

>Catalonian identity was invented at the end of the 19th century as a mean of political leverage. Same with basques. The modern basque language is artificial, it's a mesh of very different dialects spoken in isolated mountains.
Kys

Majority of secessionists are anti-EU right now
Anarchists and lefties tend to be unionists or federalists.

Basically this. Politicians are absolutely garbage here and anywhere. Can't trust them. Sheep mentality doesn't help either.

So instead of pushing for your nationalistic views, you switched sides to push for anti-catalan agenda and EU-loving C's and PP. This has to be bait.

I'm saying greed is the point of it now.
India has over 180 languages, should they all go "independent"?

It's a nonsense.

Other than "muh language" what other reason should Catalonia gain independence? It's a ludicrous parochialism, and the way things are going there will be no "actual" blood Catalans in 200 years.

>You can't be so retarded to believe that this union between Castille and Aragon was grounded on any more honorable desire.

And you can't be so fucking childish in thinking just because something is the flavour of the month, and something you want, you should get it. Embrace realism, user, your fantasist is showing.

Freedom is an illusion

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aragon

There already are way less than 50% of blood Catalans thanks to mass migration from the Franco era. That's makes zero sense as a point. If you spaniards dislike nationalism so much, then why you keep antagonizing European minorities yet inviting moors and latinos en masse?

We could cooperate to take down the EU and political correctness, yet you call secessionist moderates "nazis" and "far right", don't make me fucking laugh. Those people wouldn't hurt a fly.

You're using the same argument globalists use for the establishment of a federal European Union. "Why do you need independence if you can keep your land and live under a bigger state?". The answer is quite obvious. Ask the fucking americans, they went throught a revolution because of tea taxation lmao

>Indipendence

Independence*

>And let me ask, what does suggest you that I want to recieve our independence and not to take it?

You want a referendum, that Spain will allow, and then "grant" independence. It's fucking nonsense. No country gained independence without sacrificie. The Catalan movement had a few arrests and they all through away their Che t-shirts, cut their hair and moved to Switzerland. Leaving the poor dupes behind.

I feel bad for separatists, I really do. They have the worst possible leaders imaginable.

>As a hard line nationalist
So long as you want all the immigrants out too, otherwise then you are a larper. If the CUP said tomorrow Catalonia for the Catalans, I'd be with them, but they don't. The want Spanish out, Paki's in.

For me, ultimately, I can't see the point of independence, when the leaders are basically neolibs, who say they want no Spain, but open borders, free trade, and just to be part of the EU. On issues such as corruption, Catalonia is no better than Spain, on Language we have perhaps the best deal out of any region in Europe, etc etc etc.

What's it all for? If we are not a Nation-state, i.e. a majority Catalan state, by blood, it's just a joke. Mas and co only talk about the benefits of not paying tax, not what sort of people they want to live in their new state.

I'm on phone now, so it's harder to reply well.

Ben Affleck has some nice titties.

>May not reply, I'm going to have lunch.

A most inventive cop-out

Why are the differences between Catalonia, and Spain unbridgeable. I know you guys pay more to the union, but what would the effects be if you lose market excess to Spain?

>Freedom is an illusion

Unless you're American.

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I'm a Catalan user, if you can believe it. Even campaigned for Trias in Barcelona.

Charneros aren't great, but I prefer them than blacks. But you are right Franco "tibeted" us.

>, yet you call secessionist moderates "nazis" and "far right", don't make me fucking laugh. Those people wouldn't hurt a fly.

Well, I don't, because I live in Barcelona and know they are either feminazis or their larping beta orbitors. Their is no more a faggot movement than the leftist separatists.

I've never encountered a Catalan "far right" person in my life. We are either Neolibs, Nut case Anarchists, or Lefties. That's it.

>You're using the same argument globalists use for the establishment of a federal European Union. "Why do you need independence if you can keep your land and live under a bigger state?". The answer is quite obvious. Ask the fucking americans, they went throught a revolution because of tea taxation lmao

America had existed approx 100 years, Spain is clocking it at over 500 years under current formats. You'd have an argument if there had been a long standing majority wanting independence, but it's just a fad. The pathetic leadership of the Separatists killed any hope.

My dear American friend, you have less freedom in the US then in Europe, Unless you are among the Rich. you are born in to debt-slavery, in a culture without any debt. you are not even emancipated enough to explore you true self, yet you think you are free.

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Having a heart attack at 45 and dying in a pool of ketchup because you don't have the opportunity to afford healthcare isn't freedom, user.

You'd be astonished with how many "blood and soil" nationalists are going crypto right now. I've met people at the CUP who are basically nazbol/natsoc but don't admit it (I mean Catalunya catalana and ethno-nationalists). But yeah, there's a need for more awereness.

I believe it. It's a shame we're split in two. What I can't stand are the identitarians and far-right that come from the Meseta and are full anti-catalans. Some even prefer muslims. I prefer Spaniards to blacks, sure, we share a lot, but I can't stand this idea of "I own this land and not you". Fucking mass migration. The same will happen with non-caucasians and not only here.

You're not moving around the right orbits then. There's a bunch of traditionalists, identitarians and such.

There's been movements for greater autonomy since 1640. The idea of a truly independent Catalonia didn't take come out as somewhat more mainstream till the XIXth century. I'll give you that.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Barcelona
I think they should stay apart of Spain but don't go spreading lies.

catalonia has no army
no army no power

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>those big tiddys

m-m-milkies....