Who was right? Caesar or the Senate?

Caesar, you fag
Most optimates didn't actually think that. They were afraid of losing their land for the distribution programs and the increasing power to the plebs. They used the idea of Caesar renewing the kingship to plant doubt in the peoples minds and to urge Brutus on

it doesn't make sense to look at it that way because the autopsy of the body showed only two knife wounds in Caesar's body. His death was planned in order to deify him, and save him from a fate dealing with dementia

I guess its hard to say what the real motivations were, but if thats the case the Brutus got kinda duped, and I feel bad for him.
But on the other hand ironically with the rise of Augustus those fears became true.

how did Octavian become ruler?

Senate were being faggots ignoring woes of plebs for too long, they had it coming to be honest

>inherited Caesars wealth and name/prestige
>buddied up with Marc Anthony
>with the wealth bought himself into the hearts of the plebs

The irony is because Caesar was assassinated to prevent a monarchy (at least for Brutus), Octavian became the first Roman Emperor and the Republic ended.

The Senate. The Senate fought for the people and the republican principles that Rome was molded by. Caesar fought only for himself and his legionnaires.

Note, senate gave the people at least a voice. Im not talking about the factions. It was the factions that ruined the senate.

From the perspective of the time, Caesar. He actually was a military genius and had the will of the Roman people in mind. His successor Octavius was a genius too.

However, Caesar and Octavius established a form of government that eventually ended-up being very problematic, because it gave too much power to one man, and therefore caused a lot of chaos, specially in the 3rd century, after the Antonines and before Diocletian.

>voice
more like faggots that never did anything for them or if they tried to do anything they would get assassinated
The senatorial elites had it coming

thats why Tributes of the Plebs had veto power. It worked on paper, but corruption got to it.

>The Senate fought for the people and the republican principles that Rome was molded by

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He was just mad ceasar was givin it to his mom

Everyone betrayed ceasar out of sheer envy and jealously.

They feared he was too intelligent, and was gonna overthrow the republic. Ironically thats what ended up happening beacuse of the civil war they themselves instigated.

While men are dying by the thousands on the far reaches of the known fucking world, these old fuckin geezers in bathrobes are arguing about who gets a larger estate and most slaves . like no. gtfo here

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>The Senate fought for the people
Said nobody, ever.

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That is why it was shit, the senatorial elites did not give a fuck as long they got their bribes. Wow just like today imagine that, and they are getting butthurt at strongman.

>The Senate fought for the people

Fucking what m8

A Despotic monarchy is always ran by the aristocracy

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The institution of the Emperor did nothing for the plebs. The senate, in theory, could have.

He was Caesars heir so inherited all his wealth plus his name. People were outraged when Caesar was killed so he had tons of support to go after Brutus which sort of gave him an "in" to grow his own personal prestige. Just like how he played up Antony being a degenerate Egyptophile and abandoning the values of Rome

>senate cuck calling anybody out for fighting only for themselves
hahaha oh I'm fucking laughing

Lets be real here, the oligarchic scum that were the Optimates had literally run to republics economy into the ground and filled the cities (especially Rome itself) with an enterally new class of poor (the urban poor - Comprised of formally land owning farmers that had been dispossessed of their land by the massive slave plantations that many of the Optimates owned.
Caesar would have returned the land to the citizenry and let them go back to being productive farmers rather then an urban blight.
This policy of not allowing aristocrats to gorge themselves at the expense of the greater society is why the Optimates violently opposed and eventually murdered Caesar.
Any other reasons given by the likes of Cato was nothing more then a weak attempt to disguise their naked greed and even contempt for Rome.

Caesar was a hero in every sense of the word.
The fact that those despicable treasonous dogs got ran away from the city rather than face the consequences of their actions is quite telling as to who was Rome's real representative.

What Jow Forums needs to remember is that similar heroes (such as the Huey Long) who attempted to tackle the problem of the oligarchs that inevitably gain control of any republic, always end up sharing the same fate as Caesar.

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What do you mean, Caesar started reforms that improved their life, and without Octavian these reforms would have been reverted.

Very well said

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>the huey long

just callem' the kingfish. they did the same shit to pic related too.
now that i think about it, are strongman populists actually /ourguys/?

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Caesar had dynamical ideals,he knew Rome needed to evolve and not always be the same,it needed to adapt...reasons why many Senators believed him so, but others did not, and would rather see Rome die than let it adapt

what would the world be like today if caesar wasnt killed and went on to start the new monarchy?

>The Senate fought for the people and the republican principles that Rome was molded by.

Sounds like the Democratic Party's slogan, BC version

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Fuck it was such a good show

Rome is unironically one of the best TV dramas in the last 20 years

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Caesar was right. He saw that the Republic was crumbling from within due to cronyism and corruption among the Senatorial class and that strong leadership was the only way to right the ship. Augustus confirmed that fact.

The only thing I disliked in the show was how much trouble they two got themselves into and out of. Everyone around them just fucking died constantly. But for most part their story line was kino

Caesar was 100% justified. The roman senators pillaged the Roman economy till the point that once proud farmers were forced to beg in the streets. The plebs lived and died at their whim. It is unsurprising that when they cried that someone wanted to rule over them as a monarch, they rolled their eyes. Or more accurately, chased them from the city under threat of mob-driven death

Caesar was logical conclusion of the republic. he learn it all from Sulla

The Senate was jealous of his popularity and put him in a position where he had no choice but to destroy the republic

They shouldn't have needlessly added the pornographic scenes into it, that's my only criticism

Literally the only senators that didn't deserve horrible death were Cato and Cicero. And in all honesty, they are just the thin veneer of valor that allowed the others to pillage and engorge themselves. I thought Casaer was an evil tyrant, which he was, but he was a necessary evil; he was egotistical enough to actually dream of freeing Rome from the parasites that were the senate.

I used to be a very strong Cato supporter because of the vigor he believed in the traditional. Learning more about Rome particularly in that time period, Roman society simply could not continue going as forward as it was now a multicontinental Empire, while acting like the City State it had once been, at least without dissolving into chaos.

I actually liked that part of the show a lot desu. Definetly not the most realistic but you need your entertaining adventure bits to go with the drama to make the show entertaining, especially since it didn't have the budget for fullscale battles.

I remember seeing Atia nude in the pool while flipping through channels is what even got me to know about the show

Cato was based, but there was no way of sustaining Roman republic at that point. It had been in process of certain death for decades.

both were wrong, the Roman Kingdom was where its at

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Might makes a right Caesar stayed within the framework of the Roman system anyway, and the senate was justified in taking him out.
Cato was great.

Remember when Julius himself made Judaism a licit religion?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio_licita

Yeah I remember,the biggest mistake he has done.

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dumb nigger. thats my salad

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May all the Gods bless our sacrosanct father

GAIUS

JULIUS

CAESAR

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>Just like how he played up Antony being a degenerate Egyptophile and abandoning the values of Rome

Antony could probably have gotten out of the mess very late in the game despite the smear campaign, but as an absolute madman he went and supported Egypt when Rome declared war on Cleopatra. Only that as final nail in the coffin in eyes of the public. He thought he could win, made a bad call and ultimately killed himself for it.

Lol Cato was a hack who was mediocre at everything he did: from politics to philosophy to poetry

>Brutus made a huge mistake
well ya most of the documentaries paint caesar in a good light. He would joke about being a king, but seemed to be content on being a president like figure instead. If he had survived, the traditional system may have also survived. but killing him doomed the republic for good.

Was it even possible for anyone to get that fat back then? Sugar cane, salt, and potatoes would've been either hard or impossible to obtain, plus even the meat was way leaner back then. My guess is you'd have had to have to eat like fucking pounds of bread and jugs of beer everyday, and even then I dunno if the fat would've been distributed in that way.

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I think Suetonius mentions extremely fat disgusting rich people in the "Lives" but I could be misremembering

Remember potatoes came from the Americas. They didnt travel that far and especially take the resources

>the Virgin Senate vs the Chad Caesar

The Senate elected only the wealthiest to rule and used it as a money machine, draining the country for resources and people. Caesar killed over a million in the Gallic campaign. He would let rome burn rather than lose power. So both were the same shit. They killed the greeks and copied their lifestyle like Semites. Democracy worked in Greece, but not in Rome. The Greeks was one people, Romans were basically American mutts.

potatoes comes from peru and didnt reach europe until the discovery of the americas, and salt was such a luxury that some soldiers during the Gaul campaign were happy with getting salt as loot because it made their food taste better

Romans were more ethnically homogeneous than the Greeks until citizenship was extended outside of Latium

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>buddied up with Marc Anthony
I thought Octavian and Marc Antony fought a civil war?

Reminder this guy killed the Republic, not Caesar. He started the trend of marching into Rome and seizing power by force. He also created a proscription list of all his political opponents he wanted the dead.

People like Marcus Crassus added random rich people's name to the list so they can steal their properties when they get killed.

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Yes, they were allies but hated each other.

Antony was Caesar's right hand man, and he was pissed when Caesar named Octavian as his heir instead of him. Octavian was just a 19 year old kid at the time.

*wanted dead.

Caesar didn't kill his opposition though. If he did, he might have lived.

Yes, his biggest mistake was pardoning the guys who fought under Pompey. I guess he wanted to be seen as kind and merciful. It came to bite him in the ass.

yes that is why the Gracchus brothers were celebrated by all the rich senators

There was a point in the negotiations between the Pompeian and Caesarian factions where Caesar agreed to surrender all of his legions save for one and he'd be free to run for consul, and everybody was happy with that solution except Cato, who refused to support the deal.

It's Cato's fault. He was the original cuckservative.

Gracchi Brothers wanted to distribute lands to the poor and give citizenship to all non-Roman Italians. Senate proclaimed them traitors and had them killed.

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under rated

It would have happened either way.

looking at such a QT fills my soul with despair

>TFW no gf

I still find it strange how strong that man's convictions were, not even hardcore fanatics compare.
Few people in history had the choice of either abandoning their principles or burning the whole world, and Cato choose the latter.

Marcus Agrippa fought all his battles.

heh

fucking gracchi

Is this Sulla? Or Marius? I forget which came first.

What the fuck? I heard that there were over 20 stab wounds.

Marius came first he was older

blame the rich asses for sucking up all the farms and creating little fiefs

I've began reading some of the classical literature/philosophy this Summer, due to wanting to improve myself. Bought The History of The Peloponnesian War to learn a bit more about Ancient Greece. Where would be a good place to start with Ancient Rome? The Historia Civilis channel has peaked my interested in this period a lot lately, and this thread makes me want to be able to contribute to such discussions.

Sulla. Marius also played a major part in the destruction of Republic.

Here's how it happened:

>Marius forces Senate to give him the command for the Mithridatic War, which was originally granted to Sulla.
>Sulla gets pissed and marched into Rome, and slaughters Marius' supporters. Marius himself flees Italy like a pussy.
>After everything was back in order. Sulla goes East to fight Mithridatic War,
>Marius uses Sulla's absense as an opportunity to invade Rome, and kill all Sulla's supporters.
>Marius died couple of weeks later of Natural causes.
>Sulla gets really pissed and marched into Rome again, and genocide all Pro-Marius supporters, and took away their properties.
>Named himself dictator. But got bored and resigned from his job after a year or two.
> Spent his last days drinking an whoring. and died peacefully.

Mike Duncan has a really in depth roman history podcast. goes from the very beginning myths to the last western emperor

That sounds pretty damn great. Nice easy thing I can sit back and listen to. Cheers user.

And it continues to this day.

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Donald Kagan put up his university lectures from an introduction to ancient Greece. He wrote like 4 volume commentary on the Peloponnesian War and his audio lectures on iTunes are a really good survey from the end of the Bronze Age to the rise of Macedon

youtube.com/channel/UCxRSpkGOH_09pxKvgD8S5jQ/playlists

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Caesar. The Senate sucked so bad even the calendar was fucked. Caesar had to fix Rome his damn self.

Rome is repeating it self, 2020 be ready
Im not Q so you know you can trust me.

>While Caesar was away in Egypt, Antony remained in Rome to govern Italy and restore order. Without Caesar to guide him, however, Antony quickly faced political difficulties and proved himself unpopular. The chief cause of his political challenges concerned debt forgiveness. One of the Tribunes for 47 BC, Publius Cornelius Dolabella, a former general under Pompey, proposed a law which would have cancelled all outstanding debts. Antony opposed the law for political and personal reasons: he believed Caesar would not support such massive relief and suspected Dolabella had seduced his wife Antonia Hybrida Minor. When Dolabella sought to enact the law by force and seized the Roman Forum, Antony responded by unleashing his soldiers upon the assembled mass.The resulting instability, especially among Caesar's veterans who would have benefited from the law, forced Caesar to return to Italy by October 47 BC

This was probably the moment that led Caesar to choose Octavian as his successor instead of Antony.