God is Omniscient

Just because he knows the future doesn't mean he controls individual human's actions in the future, brainlet. Since when does knowing=controlling?

This. Completely this.

Thanks, leaf

Op is a faggot. Spice this shit up anons.

>Since when does knowing=controlling?
Always. If there is only one possible result then there is no choice. If he knows the future then there is only one future that will actually happen. No choice.

>>God is Omniscient
>So we have no free will.

Non-sequitur. God sees every possibility that could ever exist. From this pool of practically infinite potential, you are free to make your own choice. You can't surprise God, but you can make different choices than God would like you to make.

>>God is Omnipotent
>Yet he can't do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created cause he doesn't want to for some mysterious reason.

An ominpotent God has no need to adhere to your rationalizations. His reason must by default be completely incomprehendable to you, and therefore exactly that: mysterious.

>>God is Omnipresent
>Yet you have to confess your sins to a priest and pray to god with other drones in church.

God knows your sins. It's important that you know them too. When you confess your sins, it's not about telling God what you have done. It's about acknowledging the reality of the situation to yourself. Only then will you be capable of honestly asking for forgiveness for what you have done.

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- God knowing what we will choose doesn't mean we don't choose.
- Won't != can't
- Not related

>- God knowing what we will choose doesn't mean we don't choose.
That's exactly what it means. There is no choice if there is only one possible result that is known. It's an illusion of choice.

Illusion is metaphysically meaningless concept. Reality is neither true nor untrue. What is left: choices.

Not a believer but
>God is Omniscient
>So we have no free will
How do you make that connection? If anything we have no privacy
>God is Omnipotent
>Yet he can't do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created cause he doesn't want to for some mysterious reason.
Because of the free will thingy you mentioned earlier. God is not supposed to intervene and the human mind can't grasp why the world works the way it does. Maybe the keys are out there for us to understand but we rejected the truth and the path that God imprinted in his creation.
>God is Omnipresent
>Yet you have to confess your sins to a priest and pray to god with other drones in church.
You can actually ask for forgiveness to God himself. You could repent on your death bed and be forgiven according to the Bible. But obviously the Catholic Church made it their business to keep the populace on check.

>How do you make that connection? If anything we have no privacy
Free will implies that you can chose differently. When the god is all knowing he knows what you will do in the end no matter what you think, thus you make no real choice. The result is already known.

God IS a state of quantum flux. Meaning God is all those things and is all things all at the same time.
We are not in a state of quantum flux. We are either 1 or 0. Not both.
So if you come to two doors, technically you choose both doors, but are only aware of one. God knows which door you are going to choose, because you have chosen both of them. But to your perception you think you made a choice, which you did, but another (you) chose the other door.
Thats as close to understanding God I can make I it.
Make sense now?

Free will implies nothing on a metaphysical level.

God knows not only what you will do, but all that you COULD do. You have so many choices available to you within every moment. You are aware of some of them. God is aware of all of them. God knows what you will choose, because he exists outside time, which also means that his knowledge has zero influence on your capability of exercising free will within the temporal-spatial dimension of existence.

How about you read the book. Sage you fucking reatrd.

How does God knowing what you will do affect your choice? You can choose, God just knows what you will choose. Doesn't affect you at all. Omniscience means you know everything that there is to know: past, present and future. Since God is eternal and omnipresent as well he's been everywhere so he's above time and space.
Again, that doesn't mean that he infringes upon your free will, it means he alredy has seen you making that choice and knew it before you made it as well.
Knowing the result doesn't hamper your ability to choose at all.

Are you retarded?
If he is all knowing then it doesn't matter how many "choices" do you potentially have. None of them matter as he already knows what you will do in the end.

>How does God knowing what you will do affect your choice? You can choose.
You can't. Him knowing the future means that the future is fixed and that only one future exists. The world is deterministic and there is no free will.

See

Or he exists outside of time as a passive observer. Are you retarded?

>God isn't omniscient
>God is simply a creator
>...
>all problems/paradoxes solved!
There's a reason that most Enlightenment thinkers were deists.

>So we have no free will.
classic fallacy.
>do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created
1) He created a perfect world, man messed it up
2) He is fixing it.
>Yet you have to confess your sins to a priest and pray to god with other drones in church.
Non-sequitur. God's omnipresence has nothing to do with religious obligations which are designed for you, who are not omnipresent.

Weak arguments.

The choices that are available to you have nothing to do with what God knows. God knows every choice that you could make, and every outcome they could lead to. Think of it as you having already taken every route simultaneously. Every possibility that could exist, already exists for God. You are free to walk any singular route to it's absolute end. To God it makes no difference. He has as many plans for you as your capability for coming up with novel choices.

>these childish arguments again
You think you're the first person to go "lol why doesn't God just solve everything?" A first-year theology student could answer that, much less a priest if you ever bothered to have a real conversation with one

>Him knowing the future means that the future is fixed and that only one future exists.

What makes you think that way? You seem suspiciously convinced. Do you even comprehend the conceptual framework you are trying to manipulate?

Dude, the choice is there for you to take it. God just knows beforehand because he's alredy seen it. He was there even before he created you because, for God, there's no time or space.
It's like if you throw a ball, but before you throw that ball you existed at every step of it and at the same time you were ready to catch it on the other side. But you didn't accompany the ball, you didn't touch it. You just threw it and knew where it would land.
Same with God. He knew before he created the world what would happen because he was alredy there, because he's the infinity. And as an omnipresent being he's been there at the same time and space he was creating it.
You're trying to tie God to human standards of existence and that's your mistake, but God never interfered with the decissions, those decissions were taken because humans were granted free will and if he didn't grant that free will something different would've happened and God would've known it still.

>God is Omnipotent
>Yet he can't do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created cause he doesn't want to for some mysterious reason.
How do you know it's imperfect? You presume that it isn't perfect from your limited perspective.

Time is an illusion, a trick of our amazingly limited perception of reality.
Time means nothing to God.

> If there is only one possible result
there are multiple possible results due to human free will you consanguineous IQ Stanislav, just come out of the closet

If god is passive then he isn't all powerful and is evil as he does nothing to fight evil.

Deists still believe God is all powerful and all knowing, just that God created everything and lets it run. God doesnt move us around like pieces on a chess board.
t.Deist.

>There's a reason that most Enlightenment thinkers were deists.
Because they were intellectual midget hedonists who took 6000 years of human dominence and destroyed it in a few centuries?

>He created a perfect world, man messed it up
Yeah, animals raping each other and eating cubs seems perfect.

>(((free will)))

>imperfect world

By what measure?

If he is all knowing then he knows what will be all of your choices and what will be the end result. If he doesn't know which choices you make then he isn't all knowing.

God is neither good, nor evil. Again, those are concepts WE came up with.
God, is simply God.

>Yeah, animals raping each other and eating cubs seems perfect.
Wasn't like that in the beginning. When Adam sinned, the entire world was corrupted. Reality itself was corrupted. The suffering of animals is a result of man's sin.

Again, go talk to a priest you dumb pollack. The atheism vs religion debate is far above "god is evil because he doesn't make everything perfect," so all you're doing is wasting time

As the Spanish user is saying, you are trying to box the infinite into the finite. Meaning that you are trying to process perfection (God) through an imperfect device (your brain).

There is no reason an all powerful God could not act as a passive observer. Why couldn't he? He is all powerful!

So what? Him knowing takes nothing away from you. Why is it so hard to understand?

>believing he can understand the mind of God, and criticizing/mocking/mischaracterizing it with reckless abandon
seems bright

>What makes you think that way?
Because the act of knowing creates the fixed future. God can't do anything about it. That's how the Universe works. If he breaks his own Universe to defy physics then he isn't perfect.

> the future is fixed
it is not fixed due to free will and possible propelling chain events of a choice you made.
> only one future exists
only one future unfolds while multiple future events are possible

>>God is Omniscient
>So we have no free will.
Stopped reading there.
Omniscience in no way contradicts free will.

>Dude, the choice is there for you to take it.
Only one choice and god knows what you will chose. Having only one choice isn't really a choice, don't you think?

Nice try schlomo. Sorry but your nose is just too damn large.

>If god is passive then he isn't all powerful
I really don't know what logic you use to connect the dots. If I can snap a pencil in half but I don't do it because I need it to write does that mean I can't actually snap a pencil in half?

Also
>is evil as he does nothing to fight evil.
Your whole purpose on Earth is to earn your way back to Heaven by fighting evil and temptation.

It is only your ignorance of the terms that cause the problem.

God is all of those things. What god is not is your nanny. Life is a test not a nursery. It is up to you to pass or fail. Your desire for god to intervene to make the test easier is just you being a child.

>How do you know it's imperfect? You presume that it isn't perfect from your limited perspective.
Children being born without heads and people vomiting their organs out on the streets in parts of the world make god look like really shitty designer. Not to mention all the genetic material humans have. Our genetic code is a fucking mess.

Time existing is irrelevant. You still have no choice. At most you are being lied to by god that you have choice.

Dude, god being all knowing means that he knows what will happen and what my choices will be. Do you understand? There are no real choices. God already knows which path I will take.

>Because the act of knowing creates the fixed future.
Who says that? Your premise is valid only if God exists within time. There is zero reason to expect such. An all powerful God must almost inevitably exist outside time. Thus any framework depending on linear cause & effect breaks down.
>That's how the Universe works.

That's how you have decided it works. The ego on you.

>If he breaks his own Universe to defy physics then he isn't perfect.

If God can't defy physics then he would not be all powerful. Universe is God's creation. Why couldn't he do whatever he wishes with it?

So, may I assume now you never had any intention to debate or learn, just to argue for the sake of argument?
Thats fine I suppose, to each his own. But its like eating too much candy my man.
You might think you are healthy and happy, but it will eat you from the inside if you keep doing it.

God doesnt limit himself. He just lives on level where he knows all possibilities, yet we still have free will to choose between them. Some catholic fag explained it to me a long time ago but I forgot how he put it. It made sense when he explained tho

>>God is Omniscient
>So we have no free will.
This is retarded. The fact that I can predict your free choice doesn't mean that your choice wasn't freely made.
>>God is Omnipotent
>Yet he can't do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created cause he doesn't want to for some mysterious reason.
God's plan is ineffable.
>>God is Omnipresent
>Yet you have to confess your sins to a priest and pray to god with other drones in church.
Your priest isn't God.

By shit being inefficient and a Frankenstein monster of past mutations.

> what will be the end result of all the possibilities out of which you chose a set of actions
FTFY
> If he doesn't know which choices you make then he isn't all knowing.
he sees all the possible choices you have and all the outcomes, but he won't know what follows out of the all possibilities unless you make a choice in one direction which opens yet another set of possibilities that He sees and knows the results of but won't know which one of them unfolds until the action through free will is taken.

The exercise of the will is the same regardless of whether you have one possible "choice" or ten billion. Look at it this way:

If i want vanilla ice cream so I choose vanilla; it doesn't matter if vanilla was the only option. My will to have vanilla ice cream was still freely exercised. You are engaging in a typical and common fallacy, that foreknowledge destroys choice.

Also, God does not "know the future" because He foresees it. God knows the future because it is happening to Him. God IS. He is called: "I am who Am" because He is outside of time. There is no future or past with God. Only an eternal Now.

>Wasn't like that in the beginning.
Wow? How do you know? A book told you?
It doesn't matter. It is a fact now, 2K years after god came to fucking Earth and let random Jews kill him.

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose but again, you have all the choices in the world and you choose whatever. God just knows the answer. It doesn't affect you as a mortal being at all.
You could choose wether or not to make this thread, you could've chosen to go to sleep instead or watch a movie, you could've chose to masturbate... Or you could've chose to masturbate while posting this thread with a movie on the background. You could've done anything with your time, many choices, and the only detail is that God knew before he even created the world because God was also here while you were making that choice.

You're stuck on a false assumption and don't want to get out of it or flat out are unable to grasp what infinity means.

>talk to one village pedo
>talk to 100+ people from all around the world

>So we have no free will.
Say what?

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>Him knowing takes nothing away from you.
It takes away my freedom.

Only one choice but multiple options with even more various amount of possible propelling events that will affect the next chosen action depending on the first action's outcome.
All the possible ways are seen by God but which one you choose at the moment is not.

Dear motherfucker,
If god created a man and knows his future then he created a man specifically to send him to fucking hell. He already knows at the moment of creation what this man will chose. No free will. He knows.

>Yet he can't do shit to fix the imperfect world he supposedly created cause he doesn't want to for some mysterious reason.
Did you not read Revelation? We already know He will dispense perfect divine justice universally

True, confession is taught nowhere in biblical stories. The path to god is not through the blessings of any man but by god alone.

> Children being born without heads
> without heads
such beings can't be born Stanislav, put that vodka bottle down and just come out of your closet

Once again, you commit the fallacy of explaining the motivations of a perfect God through your own imperfect cognitive function

Time has everything to do with the function of choice. Without time there can be no choice. With infinite time there can be an infinite amount of choice.

How? Let's try it this way: God exists within an infinite amount of parallel realities. You can only exist in one at a time. You jump from one parallel reality to another depending on what you choose. Whatever reality you end up in, God is there welcoming you with open hands.

By the way, the mere fact that Jow Forums gets ultra butthurt about the omniscience argument every single time is a proof that I'm onto something.

>but he won't know what follows
>won't know
>won't
NOT ALL KNOWING

> There are no real choices.
on contrary, there are all the possible choices
> God already knows which path I will take
He know all the possible paths you can take without knowing which path you choose at the moment of an event

the omnipresent+omnipotent force is what we call 'nature'.

we are the omniscience.

You chose to have ice cream. You had no choice in the taste of the ice cream.Retarded example.
God still knows that you will chose to buy ice cream.

I am more interested in elevating both of us to a higher level of thought. Whether it happens through your framework or mine is of no significance. To me it simply seems that you have not thought this very far. Having been where you are now, I want to offer you an alternative perspective.

>defining God

God is the author of the book called "this faggot's life" anything he writes in the book will happen to you including every single thing you think, however you are never aware of this nor can be aware of this as you perceive this as "free will" when in reality you are a puppet who cant ever realize he is a puppet. As soon as God writes your conclusion you die without any ability to know why.

Now imagine every fucking human has these strings on them meaning everything that happens is because of God.

Dinosaur meteor? God
Niggers raping white women? God
Jews? God
Weather? God

Stupid christfag.

>Yet you have to confess your sins to a priest and pray to god with other drones in church.

yeah because you have to admit to your sins you fucking moron.

I knew your stupid pig head polak Brain was going to keep insisting this. I did not control the fact that you did.

>he created a man specifically to send him to fucking hell
There's no Hell in the Bible. That's a Catholic thing (again, created to control the populace through fear).
Still, there are several translations and interpretations for this "Hell" like Gehenna or Hades. Some are actually the fire and punishment and others are just forgetfulness and void. So no common ground on that.

>How do you know?
It is self-evidently so.

>You had no choice in the taste of the ice cream.
Yes I did. I chose "vanilla" and I got "vanilla"

>God just knows the answer. It doesn't affect you as a mortal being at all.
If he knows that means that the result already exists, do you understand? This makes all your choices irrelevant as the one fixed path you must follow is already known and in existence.
For fucks sake. Why do you guys pretend that you don't understand this? The result is known and choice is an illusion. You can't act differently from the fixed path or else god doesn't know all.

You think you have multiple options but you don't. There is only one option and god already knows which one you will choose. It's a lie.

You should try tackling Grace vs Free-Will if you really want to feel like a smartie-pants. But you're still stuck on teenage angst arguments. Sad!

Your brainlet-tier thought process was already refuted and yet you keep going

>God is Omniscient
>So we have no free will.
How does God knowing what we choose negate our choosing it? How does God ruling the universe through Providence as the first cause that permits us will and choice, negate our wills or choices as the second cause?

We pray to God not to inform Him of our desires but to force ourselves to identify our desires, and prioritize them. We pray to God because although God already knows our thoughts, communication in itself is calming and redemptive. We pray to God for help even though events may be--from God's perspective--already foreordained because our prayers themselves are foreordained and interwined with the foreordained events.

>If he knows that means that the result already exists, do you understand?
But your act of will was still exercised. Free-will is simply the rational intellect exercising it's will.

youtube.com/watch?v=wA4WSWNUJhs
Go to 14:44 this is literally how an omnipotent entity would control you, as I said before your existence is nothing but a story book they can edit to whatever the fuck they like while the character will never realize you have no fucking free will at all.

This guy gets it! I think.

>The fact that every time I repeat this idiot thought of mine people call me an idiot, is proof that I am right!

Nigga wut?

>How? Let's try it this way: God exists within an infinite amount of parallel realities. You can only exist in one at a time. You jump from one parallel reality to another depending on what you choose. Whatever reality you end up in, God is there welcoming you with open hands.
Except it doesn't matter if I believe in your jumping meme and him having his arms open is irrelevant. You are postulating the existence on GOD AND MULTIVERSE without proofs now. For fucks sake man. What's next?

God made Universe in such way that free will is impossible if he is all knowing, mkay? If he has to hack his own Universe to perform impossible actions then he failed as a designer.