UBI is an inevitability

I just counted $10,800,000.

:-)

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We have had a basic income and some kinda UBI here in France for decades now... It’s hell. It automatically transforms honest hard working citizens into lazy slobs. It helps degeneracy and vice spreading faster through all layers of society... It makes people turn into gay-commie-sheeps. I hope the US won’t do the mistake.

>UBI is an inevitability

>you completely destroy the economy through benefits given to illegals leading to the collapse of the nation in 1 year, with the dollar being rendered worth less than paper
>or you limp along in a permanent recession for a few decades until the country collapses and the dollar is fucking useless

They should be hanged for the immigration and western nations forcing a growth cycle through refugees out of panic that their population will shrink.

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That is what brainlet UBI'ers cannot comprehend.
Far majority would not willingly work.

All of the economic theories are bullshit. None of the historical grand gurus had a degree in law.

>It automatically transforms honest hard working citizens into lazy slobs.
Who would have guessed?

The year was 1607. The first 104 settlers had arrived from Europe in Jamestown in the Virginia Tidewater region of the US in May. They found soil which was fertile beyond what they had seen in the lands which they had left. Fruits were abundant. Wild game such as deer and turkey were everywhere. There was no shortage of fish and other seafood. And yet within six months 66 of the original Jamestown, Virginia settlers had died. Only 38 survived.

Another 500 settlers were again sent to settle in Virginia in 1609 and within six months 440 of these too died by starvation and disease. This was called ‘starving time' and one eyewitness described it in English of those times, ‘So great was our famine, that a Savage we slew and buried, the poorer sorte took him up againe and eat him; and so did divers one another boyled and stewed with roots and herbs.'

How could this be? How could there be such death and starvation amidst so much plenty of meat, fruits, and fish. The fault as the witness said lay not in the ‘barrenness and defect of the Countrie' but in the ‘want of providence, industry and government'.

What caused this lack of ‘industrie'? Were the Virginian settlers lazy and indolent? It could not be. People who were sent there were the chosen ones – the very best of men.

The problem was that all the men who were sent were bonded laborers. They had no stake in what they produced. They were bound by contract to put all they produced into a common pool to be used to support their colony as a whole. This was communism in its purest form. Everyone was supposed to work according to ability and take according to need.

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As so frequently happens with present day government policies, the results were the opposite of what was intended. Since hard work was not personally beneficial for the settlers they responded by working less.

Phillip A. Bruce, a late 19th century US historian, wrote of the Jamestown immigrants, “The settlers did not have even a modified interest in the soil … . Everything produced by them went into the store, in which they had no proprietorship.” The result as Bruce wrote would be what anyone who has any knowledge of human nature would expect: Men, even the most energetic and able, refused to work.

This is what happened in Mao's China and in Soviet Russia on a grand scale. In America a few hundred deaths stopped the communist experiment, in China and Russia, millions had to die before these nations abandoned the principles of Marx, Lenin, and Mao.

Jamestown changed course just two years later in 1611 with arrival of the ‘High Marshall' Sir Thomas Dale from the UK. He understood the problem and freed the settlers by abrogating communal ownership. Each man received three acres of land and, other than a lump sum tax of 2 ½ barrels of corn, did not have to contribute anything to the common pool. The colony immediately began to prosper. It prospered because each individual directly benefited by his labour and knew that he would also bear the full consequences of any reduction in output.

Communism doesn't work because it destroys the reward and work nexus. Communism doesn't work because the absence of property rights heralds the end of all incentive to produce. Communism fails because people do not wish to sacrifice their lives for others who are unwilling or unable to work.

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violet bands are twenties poorfag

>1 post by this ID
>implying there's a difference

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It's not a problem of ignorance entirely though. More of hubris. The useful idiots are a problem, but the people actually using debt to stave off paying more debt, and implementing quantitative easing are worse.
I don't think it's a good idea. That doesn't change the fact that Keysians run the US, and UBI will only be used as means to distribute newly printed money to the masses.

It's not hubris. The system was designed to bankrupt and collapse the country and leave the money masters in power. Are you this naive?

Keynes didn't advocate for a UBI. He advocated for job creation and infrastructure spending with safety nets.

If there is a variant of UBI it should be supplementary to a min wage job. If you have kids or something the government gives you an extra 4 an hour. But they won't give you anymore than that if you are laid off.

>UBI
You guys just try to picture the usual GOP member or Trump himself coping with this lol. Will never happen.

> failed everywhere it has been attempted in pilot trials
> inevitable

You're setting yourself up for disappointment.

It's subtle but there is. Keynsians are at least honest that they need a market economy to leech off of.

Trump will beg for QE4 in his second term. If UBI is not the chosen mechanism for fiat distribution to the unwashed masses, then it will be
>negative tax credits
>tax subsidies
Or some other nonsense.
Screen cap this for posterity.

One of those days on Jow Forums where you learn something new. Thanks user. I'll be bringing this up the next time I have the misfortune of conversing with a communist.

They're already upping the interest rates. You could get a QE18 just be taking them back down at this point. The better way to do it would be something like zero perecent interest infrastructure bonds to put all the plebs with useless college degrees to work in exchange for working their debt down.

Keynesians do advocate for debt spending and currency manipulation. Newly printed money that flows into the economy via the banks creates asset bubbles. When normies are the targeted vector it will actually begin raising the prices of ordinary goods and services.

>If there is a variant of UBI it should be supplementary to a min wage job. If you have kids or something the government gives you an extra 4 an hour. But they won't give you anymore than that if you are laid off.

Just like in fucking France. Doesn’t matter if you work or not: the government is always giving you some extra bucks so you can end up the month without starving with like 5 europoly bucks left on your (((account))). The whole UBI and Basic Income bullshit just mean one thing: standardization and optimization of the taxation system and of corporations revenues. A.k.a “let’s treat individuals as milk cows and press out every drop of milk from them without wasting a single one”.

I was once long-distance driving home for Thanksgiving and there wasn't much on the radio so I landed on Rush Limbaugh telling a variation on that story in celebration of Thanksgiving to celebrate how the colonization only worked after they stopped being communist and started having private property ownership.

Now, that's Rush Limbaugh's typical way of presenting something for his agenda, but there is a good lesson in the story.

Cui bono? If Jamals and Cletuses are coming to kill Warren Buffet because they can't afford a gallon of milk or a pound of rice anymore how does he benefit? People who work at the fed don't want to live with a target on their back, if USD collapses the elite won't get to enjoy the wealth transference mob free. Ordinary people can hedge their bets for dollar collapse. I know plenty of people who would be better off in a world where ammunition, water and food were the new monetary standards.

Yes a big idea of Keynes was accumulating debt. But it was supposed to only be for the short term to boost the economy. He would have a seizure if he saw how they use it now since he was for helping the bottom rung factory workers not corporate welfare.

Sorry I don't know how it works in france.

But yeah I agree about UBIs. It will turn into a thing where the state and companies team up to give you the bare minimum so goys won't revolt.

People who work at the fed have concealed carry licenses, which are not at all easy to get in NYC. I'm sure they wouldn't like knowing what some of their employees say when you get to know a good one and you're stuck in an elevator and they just got back from a meeting that tested the limits of their morality.

So that's exactly what UBI is for. It's a carrot on a stick for the neo-communists to yell about and a way to eventually taper into a different ponzi scheme (cf. Finland where they used "UBI" really as just a different way to deal with welfare and pensioners) all while keeping the goyim placated so that the system as a whole - not just some figurehead like Buffet - persists.

Keynes knew about taxation and its macroeconomic function.
Your jewnigger ass is too stunted in 1st grade to know.
In fact, it's Austrians that should be killed.

Yes. Free train rides for neoliberals.

>UBI is an inevitability
Lol, says who? No country besides Canada is stupid enough to completely integrate UBI. Even a socialist "utopia" like Germany rejected it because they can't find a way to realistically finance it and realized that it'll only make the poor poorer. Chicago is also about to implement it, and it's so fucking obvious that it will backfire on them and will be the killing blow that will turn them into Detroit 2.0, that I doubt even California will refuse to even touch it after witnessing the shitshow.

> I doubt even California will...
You poor, dumb bastard.

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If keynes couldn't see a total governement with a monopoly on violence ruling over an army of shitslurping lemmings would abuse this system to collapse, then he was fucking retarded.
Either way, keynesianism has never worked.

>Austrians are the problem
What alternate dimension do you live in?

>turn them into Detroit 2.0,
Good, as long as the University of Chicago goes tits up with it all. That place sells nothing but economic cancer.

The experiments with UBI failed. Now they are just going to kill the useless masses.

Chicago going down is only slightly more likely than NYC going down. There's too much invested in it.

>If keynes couldn't see a total governement with a monopoly on violence ruling over an army of shitslurping lemmings would abuse this system to collapse, then he was fucking retarded.
This. Keynesianism necessarily undercuts capitalism. If you have to breed a beast large enough to control your currency, markets for everything under the sun, and on top of this maintain hegemony for optimal control, there is only one logical conclusion.

>hurr durr a bunch of reactionary feudalist jews aren't the problem
>muh prosperity gospel hidden in math is something more than a shitty Calvinist narrative obscured with irrelevant math
Kill yourself, neoliberal.

So, no matter what happens, Illinoisans will be paying for it, as will we all.

>he thinks the Coinage Clause wasn't in the constitution in the first place
Lurk more.

>Chicago going down is only slightly more likely than
the sun rising tomorrow?
Niggers can't aim, let alone civilization.

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UBI only works in rich countries.

Niggers are just the occupants, as with NYC. It's run by the Kosher Cabal and there's too much infrastructure of national interest to let it just collapse short of a better option replacing it.

They will never give UBI. It gives too much freedom.

They will instead prefer to give things like basic living quarters and food rations.

> it didn't work

It rebuilt the European and American economies after the war. It also helped fend off more converts to nazism and communism which was one of his main goals.

why wouldn't they work though?
they only have enough money to cover basic costs, house, electric, water, food, etc.
granted, some would become lazy and dependent on the ubi, but i'm pretty sure most of the country aren't going to just up and quit work and sit at home all day
if you could work for 50 grand or sit at home for 15 grand which would you take?

>neoliberal because I pointed out Austrians are not facilitating the decline of the US
Can't tell if you're a dipshit or just have bad reading comprehension. I'm a propertarian for what it's worth. You can probably safely bet that a person asking if Keynisans and socialists should be lawn ornaments isn't a neoliberal.

>if you could work for 50 grand or sit at home for 15 grand which would you take?
You poor, dumb bastard.

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sick rebuttal

>he thinks this addresses what was said at all
What cartoons are airing in your head?

> You can probably safely bet that a person asking if Keynisans and socialists should be lawn ornaments isn't a neoliberal.

You're an idiot

Then the government runs out of money and all of a sudden it doesn't work so great

You can't run out of money. The whole global economy is propped up on money that doesn't even exist.

>implying they aren't the ones behind the drive to privatization of all public services and the judaic death-by-interest from pretending that paper is scarce like gold
Sure kid
>implying neoliberalism isn't the logical extreme of Austrian memeonomics
>implying americans' redefinition of "muh liberalism" as bourgeois SJWism is retroactive and universal
Shut the fuck up and learn something, you judaic half-dicked brand whore.

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>implying the federal reserve can run out of money

socialists have hijacked the Negative income tax/ UBI. It was originally pitched by libertarians like Milton Friedman as alternative to current welfare spending. Its original form had two things socialists have left out with every UBI experiment.

#1 It is essential it is tied to work. #2 It must not be for everyone up and down the income spectrum, just the poor.

Example 12,000$ a year for anyone that does not earn any income. 50% effective tax rate on it for earned income. So 1000$ a month, or 500$ a month if you make 1,000$ total that month.

Almost all experiments have been unconventional in not being tied to work, or regardless of income so wealthy and middle income receive it , making it too expensive and ineffective.

The Earned Income tax credit is basically the work portion of the Negative income tax and its been one of the most effective welfare programs for the poor.

Obviously there would be wasted money with even a good Negative Income Tax but it would be more efficient than the current mess where people get welfare for nothing, or have an effective 70% tax on earning income discouraging jobs.

Another problem the left has with UBI is wanting to add it on top of the current welfare system rather than replacing it.

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>markets for everything under the sun
That's neoliberalism, dude. Neoliberalism is anti-Keynesian.
>Keynesianism necessarily undercuts capitalism
Yes, in the sense that isms are merely forms of favoritism or chauvinism (feminism = bigotry in favor of females, racism = bigotry in favor of a race, capital = favoritism toward capital over labor), it does undercut capital's favored status. Markets, on the other hand, in particular the labor market, continue to run just fine.

>It is essential it is tied to work
Then it's not universal, is it? Friedman was a neoliberal and can be disregarded.
>It must not be for everyone up and down the income spectrum
Funny, the bourgeois liberal 9.9% loves that sort of thing. More desk jobs for le managerial class from which to "improve" their "inferiors".
>regardless of income so wealthy and middle income receive it
So tax it back from them, you judaic cuck.

>if you could work for 50 grand or sit at home for 15 grand which would you take?

A more realistic question would be "If you could work for $19k or sit at home and collect $15k, which would you do?"

UBI would ensure that young people never have the motivation to actual work and grow their careers if they weren't starting from a mid-level income to begin with. Why bother getting experience with a part-time job (which is the only thing you can do at that point in your life)if it hardly pays more than doing nothing?

Sounds like a great incentive for young women to be stay at home moms.

> be married with a kid with no job get 15k

>the constitution is infallible
>never mind all the amendments
Farmers in the middle ages were intelligent enough to riot when the king coined light coins. How do retards like you actually advocate for this shit now?

>keynesianism rebuilt the economies
I can pull unsubstantiated shit out of my ass too:
The gold standard gave us the renaissance. Now fuck off.

Hyperinflation wont happen. The US literally cannot work that way. Too much materials and investments put it.
>School loans
>Home loans
>HELOCs
>Car loans
etc.
If in just 5 years time the $1 becomes the new $100, it would be stomped out instantly by people paying back loans for next to nothing. Because they have so much shit. Selling materials for again next to nothing and paying back any debts. Every wealthy person involved in investing or holding debt would freak out. The powers that be would crush that to avoid getting killed by their own people. All while regular citizens will be free of their grip of debt.
Next you have no one buying new cars since people will be selling their own or holding them cause new are too costly. Imports would go down. Same with stores because luxury items are too costly. The US produces more food than it eats. Basically China would be destroyed in a matter of a year from trade stalling to next to nothing. S Korea & Japan would tighten their pockets as well to protect their nations. EU would struggle, Russia doesnt want shit from China that they are selling and will get them at a loss to China. No one in power and all over the world would allow it to happen.

You know damn well most of those amendments after 10 are horrid errors led by kikes.

"le managerial" class is a meme, absolutely useless people, like sanitary napkin. thats why liberals like such type of jobs.

there are only
workers
specialist
directors

le desk managerial class cant do job of qualified worker, does not have skills and experience of specialist and does not have skill, experience and deep knowledge of director.

thats why they only increase cost of product or reduce profit by their own existance, thats why in healthy capitalism (not debt-price driven ponzi shit) they almost do not exist.

>actual work and grow their careers
Then I suppose the private sector would have to pay more for labor, wouldn't they? Supply and demand, right?

>be married with no kid with no job get $15k
Doesn't seem worth the effort to me.

You seem to have a deep need to not understand the macroeconomic effects of taxation by a currency issuer, as if money were somehow conserved when paid into a currency issuer's tax authority. It doesn't. Money paid to a taxing authority is destroyed and thereby reduces the amount of that currency in circulation.
Read this and don't post until you understand that taxation isn't theft, but the very exemplar of responsible currency inventory management.

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Neo liberalism is undesirable because we currently have a global socialist system which a few centralized banks and state aparatchiks are the primary beneficiaries of.
If we had decentralized governments and banks, it wouldnt be a problem.

>trade stalling to next to nothing
It's cute how you overestimate your importance to China, as if there weren't 5 billion-odd other people in the world besides the US and China to sell shit to.

Doesn't matter. They're the law of the land now.
Don't like it, stop sitting there like some kike TV host and revolt.

Keynesianism undercuts every non-government entities favoured status.
It gives more power and less accountability to the government and thats it.

>UBI is an inevitability

Only if you want to keep the market.
In the last 20-25 years we've gotten pretty good at planning and distribution, thanks to AI and computing speeds and storage technologies.
Combine Google, Facebook and Amazon, and you have the planning tools USSR dreamed of and would've thrived under.

But if you want market, UBI does seem inevitable. Else automation and high unemployment will result in many unemployable people. Taxi drivers who lose their jobs won't rediscover their inner programmer at 40 years of age. And as the unemployable number rises to critical mass, its revolution or UBI. Pick your poison.

>global socialist system
Funded by rents collected by the ruling class due to the privatization of public goods and services which is central to neoliberal theory.
Also, you can kill your autistic neoliberal self any time.

>we've gotten pretty good at planning and distribution, thanks to AI and computing speeds and storage technologies.
pffffffttHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>Keynesianism undercuts every non-government entities favoured status.
I see literally nothing wrong with this.
>It gives more power and less accountability to the government and thats it.
That sounds like a political problem, not an economic problem. Maybe the idea of electing ministers and parliamentarians whom we can't fire at the drop of a hat is the real problem.

The truth is that if the US struggles, everywhere else tightens their pockets. China makes up for cheap products by mass production, skirting laws and manipulating the books. They would grind to a halt fast and the govt would have to put programs into place to counter the job losses which I dont think they can at this point. Vast majority of people in Burma, Russia, vietnam or India are not going to buy crappy office chairs or other exports even half the price the US paid.

>the planning tools USSR dreamed of
You don't even need that much. In 1995, a top-of-the-line 486 PC could approximate, to very near optimality, the necessary resource flows in a simplified large city industrial network in less than an hour. 20+ years later, we have desktop PCs that could calculate a large country's resource flows in minutes.
Markets are a neoliberal fetish.

>thanks to AI and computing speeds and storage technologies
Corporations with GDPs larger than most countries swear by them to tightly manage their internal markets. What's your problem?

>money paid to a taxing authority is destroyed and thereby reduces the amount of that currency in circulation
Imagine being this retarded.
What was the price of an ounce of gold in the 70's? The average price for a hectar of land? The government uses taxes to redistribute money, not destroy it.
Every agent of the government is paid out of tax money. Do they all beg on the streets because their wages get destroyed?
Honestly where did you get this shit from?

>Corporations with GDPs larger than most countries swear by them to tightly manage their internal markets.
Yes, I know. I've worked on them for the past coule of decades.
>What's your problem?
The people who think this is a good idea.

>inflation
checked.

UBI is communism without forced labour. guess how that is going to work out.

Isn't everyone else's tightening up due mostly to the disproportionate role of the dollar in foreign exchange? Countries that negotiate their own trade wouldn't even see the dollar and wouldn't need to care.
>mass production
Still operative. The rest of the Pacific Rim is still buying.
>skirting laws
The nature of business.
>and manipulating the books
I don't see this, unless you believe that governments not submitting to other governments telling them how to run their internal economic affairs is manipulation.
>counter the job losses which I dont think they can at this point
Sure, they can grow food for internal use. It's not like they don't have plenty of oil and other mineral resources.
>crappy office chairs
Shucky darn. I guess they'll just have to buy other things they need. Pretty sure Burma isn't manufacturing their own low-end cell phones.

>The people who think this is a good idea.
If you've been working on them for the past couple of decades then you should have a better argument than muh feels.

>communism is concerned with the ownership of the means of production and the disposition of its surplus
>he thinks being an owner is the same as being a consumer
Intredasting

Exactly, supported by massive market interference through big governments, which is exactly what austrian economic theory opposes. Thus neo liberalism =/= austrian economics. Q.E.D.

Nah, they're all about the flow of money in recent years. So if the money stays parked on insolvent balance sheets then that's a great victory according to them.

Remember: all they're doing is keeping the music from stopping in a big game of musical chairs, and making sure the right people have the chairs if the music does stop. At this point, they're on to a confidence game where the USD retains its value because it's still a better bet than its main competitors.

It's not an argument about muh feels. I'm tired of presenting a thorough technical criticism of it. At this point, it's more of a demographic danger where we're now getting more and more people brought up within these lies who have absolutely no foresight or understanding of where this is going to go and are instead brainwashed into believing in magic, basically, and that as long as they still get paid everything's going to be honky dory.

That's the real problem: it's the mentally retarded demographic change, not the algorithms.

Maybe your childlike understanding of the way power works is the real problem.
Communism would work if the machines did all the jobs. Thus the real problem isn't stalin sending people to gulags, the real problem is we dont have robots running off infinite energy doing everything for us.

#1 Thats why it was called a Negative income tax. its universal to the poor
#2 and 3 You are retarded if you want some kind of welfare program middle income and wealthy can access, its just recycling money to be burned up in bureaucracy. Its the same reason our shitstorm of 100 some welfare programs are stupid, it wastes money to special groups and people managing it. You would get about 30% more gib me dats to people with 1 program over current U.S. clusterfuck that heavily goes to management.

Sorry Shlomo, Friedman is part of the conservative Trinity and was never wrong. He called out collectivists including other Jews.

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The constitution had some pretty shit ideas from the get go.
Keep worshipping your holy text if it makes you happy.

flow is not an optimization problem.
unoptimal flow = collapse
for optimization in such scale you need supercomputers.
and you need ((people)) who know how to do it and the problem is that only small % knows real math. and they are the owners of capital today in most cases.

Oh, I am not saying the whole world is going to go down. Just saying China would be screwed pretty hard to the point of crashing because of how they are structured.
US would be still be exporting as well. That is why I doubt the dollar would go too high to cause a problem internally like Zimbabwe or Venezuela. It would stabilize pretty quickly.

and even more , optimization is impossible, it is done by market due to reason of existance of antagonistic target functions of agents.

If everyone is an owner like in communism, then yes, being an owner is the same as being a consumer. The only alternative is that noone consumes anything.

What’s your model for USD losing its reserve status (ie timeline and which currency is to replace it)? I have serious doubts that you know anything about how currencies are valued and there underlying market forces at work.

Keep clinging on to your right/left dichotomy. Semi-intelligent retards like you are the true cancer eating away at us all.

GAS THE KIKES RACE WAR NOW

POO ON THE KIKES POO WAR NOW