Why do you hate socialism so much?

>what are taxes
come on man

>let's have a rational discussion about socialism
>only don't bring up any socialist failures in the past 100 years
>also my country is burning to the ground because of socialism
>also our neighbors, Venezuela
>but let's have a rational discussion about socialism ok?

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>Taxes
So you don't get the full value of your work?

>only don't bring up any socialist failures in the past 100 years
name all of these failures please.

>also my country is burning to the ground because of socialism
you mispelt capitalism, the means of production are privately owned in my country and have always been, there was never socialism here.

>also our neighbors, Venezuela
they didn't even achieve socialism, the means of production are privately owned there too.

I literally gave the most basic dictionary definition of socialism in the OP

You do but you are expected to share a minor fraction with others.

Since there's no bourgie scum, you'd be expected to pay lets say sub 5% taxes in total for collective purposes.

> inb4 too much

You are already fucked by shit ton of middlemen taking their cuts, thus inflating their price.

yes you do, the buyer of the product pays the taxes, not you.
surplus value tax.

>name all of these failures please.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

>what about socialism protects workers against exploitation ?
this is a dumb question. It is not defined, there is no one mechanism that makes socialism. Socialism is just a sytem where the people own the means of prodcution - however that is achieved. People, more over in the west, tend to take words like socialism and communism as some by the book defined systems that have to be tried and implemented. There is nothing really intrinsic that makes socialism - that's why it as the most(alongside with capitalism) studied social and economic idea in the world. To make socialism you first need someone to theorize what that socialism is and how it will be achieved - sociologists, economists, politicians, philosophers. Trying to make socialism - create a system where workers own means of production - cannot be done by following steps from some 150 year old book some bearded dude wrote. Yes it's nice theory but it doesn't fit the 21st century society

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By your own double standards, none of the countries you faggot communists hold up as "bastions" of socialism ie "muh Nordic model" are socialism either because they're the most privately-owned, free market capitalist countries in the world. You're basically dumbed-down wannabe communists who don't know shit about economic theory or real world applications of theory and anytime you brown niggers fail at socialism you claim it was because it was never what you set out to achieve to begin with.

Here's something to chew on, you dumb brown monkey: If you dive into a dumpster and start digging for the bottom, when you suffocate halfway down and end up in a pile of shit, do you just tell yourself things would have been different if you had only gotten to the bottom?

>what is Ba'athism
>what is the Arab world

>they didn't even achieve socialism, the means of production are privately owned there too.

No they're not, they're shared in a usufructuary way, inflation and taxes prevent most kinds of saving or private decision on the use of the production, thus the means of production are exposed 100% to democratic decisions. Plus there are plenty of cases of expropriation and price controls.

>#1 on the list is China
stopped reading there

If it isn't voluntary it's rape and rape is wrong.

There's no such thing as collective ownership.

>the buyer of the product pays the taxes, not you.
Tax in a transaction is a mutually shared burden irregardless of who you claim pays it.

You can't buy as many products therefore the producer suffers the tax.

Starting to understand why you are under the situation you are.

the one who takes the money isn't the one who organizes the workforce. Orginization and managment are very important aspects and jobs of one production, no one want's the production to be wimpy. The one who does nothing but reaps the money is usually at the very top of the hierarchy. Imagine owner of some big oil company, all the managment, organization, producation and advertisment is done by people who he employes - he however does nothing but invest and expect profit

>You do but you are expected to share a minor fraction with others.

So you don't.

Way to do mental gymnastics to justify what was basically a false statement.

Soc dems are liberals aka heavily regulated capitalism aka Norway and Sweden and Germany etc. And desu even that is better than lolbertarian gabitalism of a burger :DDD

Heavily unregulated capitalism, aka ancapistan, is Balkan crew+ whole capitalist Africa.

The psychopaths that are currently mobilised into doing the Patrick Bateman routine have to find different outlets for their deviance under socialism. Central records haven't declassified any examples as yet from any socialist regime, but you can be sure they're out there.
How many of the cartels in your part of the world don't care for the money as much as the funtime?

The best & brightest are exploited & demoralised, the drag on their abilities is state sanctioned & mandatory. The state sometimes alleviates this by sending millions into servitude to serve the gifted few. They may fall out of favour & be vanished at any moment.

The proles & retards are entirely without dreams. Their drudgery without end interspersed with popping out another mong into the soup line Muslim style. There is absolutely no eugenic pressure whatsoever, so society becomes in the most literal sense degenerate.

Without meritocracy, without inequality, without conflict & competition, without the 'other' hiding in shadows plotting your death, stagnation & an actual death awaits.
Fuck your commie horseshit, fuck you too.

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I'm not even against socialism in general, I'm only against international socialism, which is completely indistinct from capitalism.

>By your own double standards, none of the countries you faggot communists hold up as "bastions" of socialism ie "muh Nordic model"
I said in the OP specifically that the nordic countries (social democracies) are not socialism and said don't mention them.

I'm not gonna waste my time with you since you don't even read the posts you're replying to.

you got it all wrong. Serb market is heavily regulated capitalism - but it's not regulated by the Serbia government

Venezuela is 85% privatized/privately owned.

Cuba is better model even with all the sanctions,700+ coup attempts by CIAniggers and god knows how many subversions.
They got decent healthcare and universities, no one is homeless and u got food covered and subsidized.
Sure its not burgerland, sure its old.
But rhey are sanctioned, undeveloped from sanctions and, most important.

THEY ARE A FUCKING ISLAND NEAR MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN WORLD AS ITS ENEMY.

What was the death toll of the Maoist regime?
and their government is oppressive as hell. They can't even use google there.

>Seize the means of production
>nothing really intrinsic about socialism

Pretty intrinsic to me, senpai.

Cuba is protected by Russia so the US can't actually invade it, and it may have nukes. Also, Cuba mostly exists through grifting off other LatAm states. It is basically an intelligence agency masquerading as a country.

Maoism is a pretty good real world example of socialism. If you’re mad because of Hong Kong or Nixon goes to China, then just follow their history before then. Or are they too Communist? Used to many guns and violent revolutions to enact the socialist state? In fact, instead of stopped-reading-thereing maybe you should start reading now. Because there are plenty of books that break down the inherent failures of socialism, economically and pragmatically, and you apparently haven’t come across a single one.
Road to Serfdom is a good start.

You've already shown you don't actually want discussion by your lack of response to very valid critiques of your dumbass faggotry ITT. People are literally telling you flat out that you're incorrect on even a rudimentary understanding of what a "socialist" country is, but clearly you're too fucking stupid to read. I'll dumb it down even further for you, socialism on it's face is morally reprehensible. Theft, coveting your own neighbor's possessions, and worshipping "big government" are all three sinful and reprobate. There's literally no way to justify it in even a Biblical sense on even the most theoretical of terms.

Socialists are the worst, condescending, disrespectful, rude, superior, arrogant, everything about them screams bad bad bad

Ah yes typical black or white thinking.
I guess you also dont mind all the taxes and mirdle man cuts.
I guess you also dont mind those 20%+ taxes you like now.

Note that this was my idea about taxes in owned system in order to keep it going.
In full communism theres no currency thus no taxes.

I understand it perfectly, I don't mind taxes, that doesn't mean you don't get paid the full value of your work.
right now somebody takes money off the surplus value a worker makes and then he has to pay taxes.
we want to get rid of the guy taking a cut off the workers money, not the taxes.
in my explanation I pointed out that the worker gets the full value, that's it.

The purpose of Cuba was a strategic "dragons be here" border to draw a red line against the US at the height of the cold war. Trying to pretend Cuba's economy and national security situation wasn't kept afloat by Russian intervention is absolutely naive at best, retarded at worst.

My ass, you can get everything here under the black market.
Literally everything.
If you got money you can bribe the shit out of bureaucrats and steal someones property, kill someone and bribe a judge etc

I work and make a pretty great living. No thanks.

although I am a socialist i do agree with people who observe that the majority of socialist systems during the 20th cenutry were failures. The worst thing socialists today can do is negate these things ever happened - the better is to acknowlegde the failures and learn upon them. Why has it failed ? What can we do to improve upon these failures ? The goal of today socialists must stay the same - the collective ownership of the production by any means possible but we should realize that our current means of achieveing such systems are broken. It's's not time to revolt but to stop and think, we need new theories, new concepts and the revision of old ideas not more failures

What I meant by that is that socialism only means "collective ownership of the means of production" - but nothing more. How this shall be achieved is not in the word. Criticizing socialism for the failure of one specific system makes no sense, the entire idea of socialism is summed in one sentance - specific socialist theories are to blame

>under socialism, the worker gets the full value of their work.
But what about the people whose work is 7x more valuable? I think I would actually make more money under socialism if what you say is true. I wouldnt crack 300k but I would definitely be killing it. There would also be surplus resources to pay me more as well.

it was a joke dumb dumb, I'm refering to Arabs and Chinease owing half of our country

Nigger, cuba is literally the worst example of anything you could possibly use.
>Muh cianiggers
Please faggot. Any one of you niggers actually been to Cuba? Because I have.
>They got decent universities
>Muh no one is homeless
>U get food covered
They have basically no healthcare nigger. If you go to a Cuban hospital for anything other than a life-threatening injury, 99% of the time you're going to be sent home with a bottle of Tylenol. If you do have a life-threatening injury, you're going to be put in a bed in a room with 20 other sweaty, farting people to sweat like a pig because none of their hospitals even have a functional goddamn AC. Universities? Oh shit, wow great everyone has a "college degree" and guess what? There are motherfuckers with master's degrees in physics that are going into apprenticeships to learn how to change the oil on a fucking car because there are no jobs. You got food covered? You mean eating a mayonnaise sandwich every day? Or maybe you mean splitting up a block of cheese with your family? I wish any of you literal idiots who hold cuba as any example of anything would go live there without your passport for about 5 months. You'd shoot yourself in the head.

> revision

Off to Gulag you go, maybe some work will teach you not to insult our Komrad Stalin.

Joking, I agree. It needs revision and it needs new ideas.
Shitposting about what bearded dude wrote 150 years ago is of no use.

So executive level corporate management is replaced by government?
How would I fare any better under a corrupt beuracrat as opposed to a corrupt corporate CEO?

this is false.
the expropriation bit is true, but that doesn't mean it's socialism since there still is private ownership of the means of production.

I meant that China is literally not socialist, even they admit it, it doesn't matter if their party is still called the communist party.

>you're incorrect on even a rudimentary understanding of what a "socialist" country is
nah that's you, I gave you a 7 word definition and you ignored it, talking about social democracies and whatnot, which I said don't even mention because it's out of the argument.
you don't read the posts you're replying to.
I also said civilized discussion and you burst in with pure insults and obvious hatred so I really couldn't possibly give a shit about your opinion.

There are people with 2 PhDs from physics and math here with jobs that camt even pay a fucking rent.
And we are a fucking capitalist country.
I shit you not.
So if your point is true and my certainly is anout this case.
Both systems are shite then.
Congrats.
That being said, Cuba wasnt and will never be economically rich as USA.
Burgerland has enough food and space to take care OF ALL ITS CITIZENS.
NOT WHOLE WORLD BUT ITS CITIZENS, AS IS OF RIGHT NOW.

Let's not.

There is nothing worth discussing about the concept of socialism. It does not work on paper, it does not work in theory. It crumples in implementation, it is abused by everyone that champions it as means to seize power for a tyrannical dictatorship, it is negligent of basic human truths and it is incapable of even surface level scrutiny.

Saged for good measure faggot.

Give back rightful clay to noggers and go back to Yurop you jew.

How's that capitalisms fault? Its market driven so perhaps your friends should have gotten an education in industries that are actually in demand

As a healthworker I'd like to think what socialism says about cost of helping others. Is it 5 dollars to wash old people butt or is it 500 dollars? As a nurse I only have service to offer and how can you put a "fair" price on service? Just saying hello to a lonely person could be worth millions for him but worth nothing to another person.

Every time I see you socialists / communists bring up "every worker get their full worth of their work instead of Exploited by capitalism." Making a door has x costs and time to produce. Trying to help a depressed suicidal person can take weeks or months or maybe they kill themselves before you can help.

I just want to hear you tell me how much I am worth for helping other people? A doctor gets much higher pay than me, but he has more responsibility and longer education than me. But a doctor only talk, examine, prescribe and send you somewhere. Me as a nurse In psychiatry I have to deal with deaththeats and listening and witnessing madness over 40 hours a week.

Talking with a bipolar anarchist patient and he says I should earn more than doctors because I'm the one who must endure whatever treatment plan a doctor make.

>let me define socialism so that there is no confusion:
>not muh REAL socialism
Every fucking time, shill.

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muh socialism has never been properly tried before card.

How is it not valid to use the failures of the governments that operate under a socialist ideology, as a criticism of socialism. Because communism has not been achieved yet?

I have no problem with socialist policies, but they usually only work when they are nationalist rather than internationalist, and only focus on what is best for your volk. Why do you think Socialism worked so well in Libya, Syria, and Iraq? It was NATIONAL SOCIALISM!

Theres no jobs you retard.
Market is empty.
You can work in office or in factory and youll barely make 450€/month.
And just the rent will cost you 400€.

If applied math and physics in energetics arent in demand you should nuke yourself.
On the other hand theres market demand in leafland and in usa and west.
Ofc there is since its regulated capitalism vs here where only thing needed is a slave for a sweatshop being paid min wage of 200€.

>Burgerland has enough food and space to take care of all of it's citizens
Nigger, at what point in civics class did you ever think it was the responsibility of the government to babysit grown ass adults? Your argument for socialism is "duuhhh there's foods and lands and shit so why not give it away"? This is why you're a dumbass, Serbian. Just because someone's alive and breathing doesn't mean they deserve shit. Especially not from "the government" which is just a roundabout way of saying "from everybody else who pays taxes." Nigger, if you are worthless, then go die by a tree seriously. There are plenty of people fully capable of working, fully capable of moving their asses and getting a job that just don't see a need to because they want to leech off of everyone else. This will always be the case and it will always be why your dumbass "utopia" faggotry will never come to fruition. The only people vocal at all about socialism (ie communism lite) are the most useless dregs in a fucking society to begin with. You idiots don't seem to realize that without a base of hard-working taxpayers, you're "system" goes up in smoke every time and those of us who do work, under your hypothetical system, have no where to go but down to your level of shit-tier standard of living. Now grace us with your superior intellect and tell us how that could possibly be a benefit to the majority of people who do work for a living? Bigger government is never the answer to your faggoty little lazy ass problems and the fact that you would prefer giving up your freedoms to a nanny state because you can't handle life just shows you need to be exiled to an island or fucking hang yourself because the vast majority of the world isn't on board with your dumbass opinions.

>blocks your path

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Why are there no jobs?

The only people who promote that shit think theyre gonna be the designated poet or artist. Unaware that they would put to work just like everyone else. Its a lazy mindset.

It never worked and doesn't in Canada, we are Venezuela 2.0 in 15 years. Buying a gun next year

what? not even close m8

how's that a valid reason?
if you are an employee then you'd make more money under socialism.
if you are not an employee good for you.
if you have employees I'd like to seize your means of production.

I can't explain the labour theory of value on a vietnamese image board for cambodian cartoons, but I recommend you to google it, it explains how work would be valued.
if you want to read the whole book, Marx explained it in Das Kapital.

>corrupt
making a few assumptions there m8
like I said in the post above, your work would be valued with the labour theory of value.
right now a CEO can take a cut off your work's value, under socialism nobody can and nobody does.

Sounds like you live in a shithole and doesn't have fuckall to do with capitalism or socialism. If anything, capitalism actually brought jobs to your dumbass corner of the world so 100% of you wouldn't starve to death like the faggots you are. You should be grateful. You should stop throwing a tantrum about it and tell some of your subhuman cousins to actually have a fucking brain and come up with something innovative or original to pull your shithole out of the gutter.

>Why are there no jobs?
because there's no industry

>why is there no industry
becase the during the transitional peroiod of socialism to capitalism most of the existing industry got sold off to foreign and domestic "investors" who bought it for cheap prices and than sold the assets for higher.

>Why don't you rebuild the industry
because the government doesn't have the control over it. Everything that existed baknrupted long ago with al of it's assets sold off or decayed, to renew it would require capital and a lot more control over the industry which the government doesn't have

>why doesn't it
because it's in private ownership

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What a "glorious" country you live in you degenerate swine.

>if anything capitalism brought you jobs
>what is Yugoslavia
the very act of introduction of capitalism in Serbia doubled the unemployment and wrceked the market

earning a PhD is a waste of time and money unless you want to work in academia. smart people go to trade school

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It would only work in civilizations that would be the wet dream of almost everyone here on this board.

Doesn't work under current conditions and never will.

under capitalism there is zero explotation of the worker because the worker can quit his job.
under socialism you're assigned and you're stuck.

fuck socialism.

Socialism,communism or capitalism could work anywhere but human nature greed and ego will kill it every time.
We could try a democratic political system but people will kill that idea too.

Sounds like you should move

You can come stay with me pal ;)

Plenty of work here.

have you guys noticed that most socialists commies you see are always these weak looking people with no spark in their eyes? Dead eyes and a losers posture. You can usually see in them that they live unhealthily

I guess it is because their whole view on the world is mostly based on bitterness and envy, and they haven't realized the importance of self determination and responsibility.

it's the most basic dictionary definition, it's not my specific kind of socialist ideology (which I do have), if you have trouble with a simple definition and can't tell whether something fits in it or not, that's not my problem nor my fault.

>muh socialism has never been properly tried before card.
it has, and it is, there are many different kinds of socialism, but currently China does not fit the most basic definition, that's all.
I'm not gonna pay attention to a wikipedia article that's wrong right off the bat.

Canada and Venezuela aren't socialist.
Venezuela's government are trying to reach socialism, though they are failing misserably in my opinion.

that's literally nobody's case.
what are you on about?

>you should move
>Plenty of work here

I'd rather die than abandon my country for some gibs, if anything capable people should stay and fight for the better future. My ancestors shed too much blood fo r my homeland for me to just leave it. I don't know if you understand it but having actual culture and national identity behind you requires you to fight, not to give up and leave

>An Argentinian tries to convince me he knows the best form of government

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>first, let me define socialism so there's no confusion
Fuck you. Socialism is pic related, and you should kill yourself immediately.

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>first, let me define socialism
>FUCK YOU
>"procides to define it his own way"

How to strawman 101

let me define you in one picture

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No, it ruined South America.

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I understand. How very noble of you. But I also know there is no shame in abandoning a sinking ship.

Best of luck to you sir

why?

>under capitalism there is zero explotation of the worker because the worker can quit his job.
this is the kind of misrepresenting phrase that right wing people indoctrinate others with.
the worker can quit a job, not his job, he always has to sell his workforce for somebody else to profit, it doesn't matter if he can choose to whom.
the worker is not free.
>under socialism you're assigned and you're stuck.
this is wrong.
you look for a job just like in capitalism.

>human nature
it doesn't matter if you're greedy or lazy or neither, that won't make the system "not work", not any more than capitalism.
if you're greedy that means you want money, under socialism you can't have people work for you, which means that all your wealth will have to come from your work.
if anything, being greedy works better under socialism.
if you're lazy, you're gonna work as much as you do under capitalism, since you still have to use money to buy stuff.
not to mention that capitalism alienates the worker from their work, in socialism you can do what you like, and even if you don't do what you like, you're still working for yourself, something you don't do under capitalism, which will motivate you to work more than under capitalism.

Come over here and survive working as waiter on 200€ monthly wage.

Protip rent is 300€ min.
If you can hustle it up with your superior working useful skills Ill stfu.

Else fuck off brainwashed moron.

Why should someone die in winter because of unlucky circumstances? Why shouldnt they be given second chance?
Your system benefits only rich like Bezos and company.
The moment you fuck something health wise you will pay astronomical bill.
If you cant pay it off, tough luck bud.
See you on the street. Your fault.xd

Under capatilism people can move up the food chain or switch to a better(or worse) job. It is not allowed under communism which is just aggressive socialism.
Why would anyone try to advance under socialism since it doesn't actually reward people for work done, it just takes from the top and gives to the bottom or more likely gives to the state and the state is run by corrupt assholes. Maybe not on day one but soon enough.

There's a story of socialism that's described in a classroom. Idiot kids( ie the op) told the professor that socialism works and he told them let's do this experiment. Everyone gets the same grade on tests. First week everyone got a b. Second week everyone got a c. Third week everyone failed when they realized everyone stopped trying.

Fuck off, it doesn't work. Welfare is socialism, it steals from the workers and gives to lazy assholes.

>ad hominem
that's not civil discussion

no, socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production.
this is not up for debate.

how?

>you mispelt capitalism, the means of production are privately owned in my country and have always been, there was never socialism here.
>what is welfare state

>name all of these failures please.
China
Russia
Cuba
Laos
Vietnam
Albania
Angola
East Germany
Mozambique
Venezuela
Yemen
Iraq

>they didn't even achieve socialism, the means of production are privately owned there too.
hurr durr it wasnt reel soishulism

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I see that your private school has taught you well for shekels.
My socialist school taught me there's a clear difference between your and you're.
Capitalists don't care about that though, as long as you got those $$$, you'll pass.

Socialists aren't socialists though.

They're mentally defective freaks.
Drug addicts.
People who don't work, and live off trust funds.
They are the tools of people like George Soros, and the Koch Brothers.

Socialists should be against immigration as it fucks up the working classes ability to collectivize for their own interests.

As capitalism is completely incompatible with Nationalism, or Race, or Religion; any Socialists should be focused on the Advancement of its people (Race), and the defending of its peoples homeland (Nation).

Open boarders, heroine addicts, who attack working class trump supporters aren't socialists they're parasites and deserve death.

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the ship sank long ago, it is our job to rebuild it. And we're going nowhere by just leaving

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You really think Socialism is /OurSystem/ you ingrate?

You obviously have no concept of the human mind and spirit. You are asking that people who are all different to engage in a common policy that dictates their lives. Narcissists and extremely ambitious people will usurp the system because they want more than anyone one else.

So what do you commie faggots do. Send them to a camp for their crimes or lobotomize them into conformity thus completely shattering human rights in the process.

Also socialism will never work in a country with the land mass of the USA. It's too big and unwieldy and eventually rogue states will form because they can't be controlled by the inevitable Authoritarian government.

If you want civil war, why don't move to the fucking Mid-East and build sand castles or get you balls chopped off in the Congo.

Lol the onus is on you then to come up with a cogent theory of socialism that no other nation has started with. Consider this while doing so - every attempt someone has made to implement a cogent reality of socialism has failed miserably, and has warped into something that drastically misrepresents what their initial intentions were. So how will you prevent that, Slav?

The solution to failed communism and capitalism is the same it seems.
Move on to next country and live there.
:^)

I agree with you.
A country doesn't become shit until most of the good people are gone, leaving a country full of shit people.
The ones that leave are no better than refugees looking for an easy life elsewhere instead of fixing their own country.

>Sitting behind a keyboard saying how great "muh country is"

>Equates it to fighting for it.

Fuck off Eurofag

>anti-marxian communist
I too hate the fucking martians. Stay in your planet, ffs

>waiter
there's your problem, unskilledfag. you need a marketable skill beyond carrying a plate to a table. you're basically a donkey

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Cubans should have nuked you.
Fuck you Fidel for not letting Che nuke these mental abominations.

>Under capatilism people can move up the food chain or switch to a better(or worse) job.
how's that a good thing?
>It is not allowed under communism which is just aggressive socialism.
not even close, communism is the socialist utopia: no state, no classes, no money.
socialism is the way to communism.
and you can choose what to work as, just as in capitalism.

you clearly don't know what socialism is, even though I gave you a very simple definition in the OP.
>Why would anyone try to advance under socialism since it doesn't actually reward people for work done
yes it does, since there's no capitalist (owner of the means of production) you get paid the full value of your work, in capitalism you get paid less than the value of your work.
>it just takes from the top and gives to the bottom
what are you talking about? you really don't know what socialism is, do you?

that story you told makes no sense, that's not even close to socialism.