Change my mind, Jow Forums. Before I start my argument, I want to say that I'm not even a Leftist. I'm a Right-wing Libertarian, but I think some Leftist social theories and criticisms are worth taking on board.
If we separate the terms gender and sex for ease of convenience, it makes the argument clearer to make. Sex is the undeniable facts about the body attached to the sex chromosomes.
Let's focus on the gender roles concept for a bit. Throughout history, what is considered a 'real man' or what was defined as masculine culture has changed. It also varies from culture to culture. For example, in today's society it is often seen as the manly thing to ejaculate in as many vaginas as you can and beat up as many people as you can. However, in the 1950s US, that would have been considered the actions of a hooligan and not the actions of a 'real man'.
There's this idea in gender theory circles called 'gender performativity', and I think it helps solidify the constructionist argument. When a boy is born, his penis indicates he is male to the midwife. However, in the succeeding years he is thought by society to 'perform maleness'. He is taught to act tough, not to cry, to have certain traditionally masculine interests, etc. But if he decides to act in a feminine manner or finds he is in fact a transwoman, then the argument for biological determinism in this regard falls apart because there has been a clear violation of supposed biological hardwiring in this sense.
modern gender theory presupposes that gender has been redefined to conform to the new theory. It is objectively true within its own information matrix. I never hear anyone attack the gender theory as it is because it exists parallel to rational thought. You cannot attack it, its an issue with language and perception, not facts and information. You simply know that boys and girls exist or you dont for some reason.
William Martinez
Again, Bill Nye is speaking purely in scientific terms and referring specifically to biological sex, which is fine. It's separate from the argument about gender identity and gender roles
Evan Anderson
Male children forced to play with barbies use them as toy soldiers. The male and female brain are structured differently, all of the things you've stated have been proven to be objectively false unless performed under extreme brainwashing that lasts for years. Get the hell out you degenerate filth.
Robert Wilson
Biological sex and gender are the same thing Prove they're not
Asher Perez
Theyre not because gebder IS a social construct. They constructed it.
Connor Cruz
Trannies should all be euthanized, change my mind
Michael Cox
Who is they
Ayden Hernandez
fucking nigger if gender is a social construct why do trannie faggots need to undergo surgery and hormones to become women, why isnt being a woman mentally or act like one enough why do u need to cutt of ur penis and go take hormones so u can feel liek a pseudo woman if gender is a social construct and not a biological construct nigger,
Brody Wilson
Nigger civilization is a social construct. Male / female genders and roles existed before it
The idea of gender as a concept independt of sex originated from a kike doctor named John Money in the 1950s. To this end he attempted to "cure" dysmorphia in patients by pioneering some of the first sex reassignment surgeries. His patients ended up killing themselves as surgery tended to amplify their inner torment, not quiet it. The gender research and surgery department he created at John Hopkins was eventually shut down because the severe patient suicide rate. I too appreciate certain constructionist attempts to more cleaarly define our world but the concept of gender as promoted by quack doctor John Money is totally bogus and has beem shown to be invalid by science and time. It was horseshit then and it is horseshit now.
Jason Walker
It's an identity founded on believing in something imagined.
All identity is arbitrary imagination which ceases to mean anything at will.
It is like a religion, it is only real if you believe.
John Miller
Prove that they are. The burden of proof is on you, as the evidence shows that gender roles can change, and are therefore not biologically determined, at least not entirely
Evan Hughes
>I'm a fucking retard, change my mind
no, fuck off shill
Dylan Richardson
Because transgender people don't just have a gender role problem. They also have a body image problem.
Nathaniel Green
There is only one gender, male. The other is objects.
You people only think for the moment. Most people that are "LGBTQ" and other do their shit when they are young and don't really need a family. Unfortunately for me I can foresee a future where they have nobody but sex partners until nobody wants them and then poof NOTHING. Add to that the plethora of socioeconomic and biological problems that these perversions bring to a social environment and you have an unethical, vain and pleasure seeking human. Tldr a sodomite. I am sorry, reality doesn't conform to the will of an emotional child or many and the laws of nature , basically the word of God always wins at the end.
It doesn't fucking matter. Identify as however you like but people subconsciously and automatically file you into a male or female box. It's innate and you can't prevent it or change it.
You can no more stop yourself noticing if someone is natally male or female than you can stop yourself breathing in and out.
David Ross
The voice that keeps me up at night and all his demonic friends. Theyre taking over man, they control gender studies classes everywhere specifically.
Joshua Hernandez
Biological phenomena only make sense in the light of evolution, and humans, including our brains, civilizations and societies, are BIOLOGICAL entities. Gender is important only in language. The "gender social construction" myth is pilpul, designed to sew confusion, and it will make you die of AIDS, just like Foucault, who thought that AIDS was a social construct that was designed to terrorize faggots and niggers.
Aaron Butler
Men are hardwired to hunt. Women hardwired to make babies (and agriculture, to a degree).
The faux "manly man" who just ejaculates in vaginas and perpetrates crime would be hanged and his children starve to death back about 150 years ago.
It is proliferation of marxist-leninist policies designed to destroy society that enables these same freaks to live. For a purpose.
Honestly if a man wants to mutilate his own penis and pretend he's a girl then more power to them. Just don't force the 99.99% of society that doesn't like these freaks to accept them naked in the locker rooms.
Connor Anderson
ok so would you say that
having a different reproductive system with one sex being able to spread their genes very easily and another instead having expensive pregnancies wouldn't have an impact on dating/mating behaviour?
likewise having different fertility windows, with one sex being able to reproduce almost all his life and the other only having a small window?
What about hormones? Do testosterone and estrogen have no impact on your behaviour?
What about the different IQ distribution, specifically the different standard deviation between males and females? Does it not reflect on real life choices and outcomes?
Just to name a few.
Nobody is arguing that gender is entirely biological. It's clearly not. Only that the notion "it's a social construct and biology has nothing to do with it" is also false.
Justin Morgan
>moving away this hard the goal posts
>what is the body >body is a biological construct nigga
a male is born in a male body
a female in born in a female body
a female who thinks she is a male literally has a genetic defect or unbalanced hormones, because your body is a 500,000 year old evolution biological construct, that is why when you you get cut u will get a crust,, that is why you have muscle memory, eyes. ears, your ancetors faced challenges so they evolved to devolpe those things
did they not evolve so you could be a male thinking you are female, iits simply not normal, and it would be useless, its a genetic defect it makes no sense to a female brain be born in a male body either its that or its a male brain with unbalanced hormones, usually pre male to female trannies are all stereotypcal low tested depressed unmotivated faggots
also if a male takes hormones to almost look like a female, he will never be able to father children when fucking a woman and as "womyn" will never have a womb to carry children either,
from a evoluatinary standpoint transgenderism is flawed,
you have arms and grip because your ancestors need it to climb a tree
you have muscles because you need it to move around and pick up shit and fight off enemies
literally ur ancesotrs devolped fat stores, because food was scarce so anything would go to reservers
our body is all evoluation that is why mostly functions right our ancetors were the beta tests /demos,
nigger fuck u. i know you dont really defend those views and u looking for (yous) on pol and you probally will use some of these when argumenting with a real tranny, but nigga, tell me, if cavemen acted like cavewoman, and cavewoman acted like men we wouldnt exist today nigger
Ryder Reyes
>PENIS >VAGINA
Sebastian Long
Yeah, exactly! You just defeated your own argument. In attempting to argue for consistent masculinity standards as a result of biology, you defeat it with the following sentence: > The faux "manly man" who just ejaculates in vaginas and perpetrates crime would be hanged and his children starve to death back about 150 years ago.
James Price
Op you are retarded. The social construct part is gender, which is binary. The reason it is a social construct is that it doesn't perfectly match reality, which has the variance. Social constructs have utility, that's why we use them. But much like numbers will tell you more about a color than "blue", reality does not always perfectly match this ideal.
For proof of this to my retarded pol friends who reee at anything resembling good sense if misused by leftist retards; chromosomes, as often pointed to, are not what we use to assign the sex to someone. The doctor looks down, sees the junk, and makes an announcement. Some times they are unable to withought consulting the parents as they have deformities or hermaphrodism. You cannot build your society on exceptions but your scientific model conversely MUST accommodate them or you model is bullshit.
Colton Harris
benis n bagina
Ayden Smith
And no one is saying sex or gender are 100% social construct, but doesn't the fact that a transwoman today can look indistinguishable from a female and mentally identify as female and be disgusted with their male body show that biology as far as human consciousness goes doesn't mean as much as it would for, say, a fruit fly? Or even just a gay man who has no desire to be female but decides to stop acting like a male and instead acts like a female?
Leo Bell
Imagine being such a nigger you don't know the primary method evolution happens through is mutation
Carter Lee
The eternal libertarian, good goy for capitalists.
I don't get how this is even a thing? The average person won't give a shit what or who you like to fuck or what your role is. It seems like a giant witch hunt to find people who don't actively support this shit.
Gabriel Reyes
They deserve euthanasia, not hormones
Eli Hill
Are you serious? Then explain transphobia. If people truly don't give a shit, why are transgender people discriminated against so heavily?
Joshua Bailey
Gender and sex are the same thing. Stop trying to make them exclusive. You’re clearly a Marxist and no where near right wing. Piss off.
why should transexuals care what a handful of religious nutjobs think? when did stranger's opinions on the internet become relevant?
>discriminated oh, so they're being told to sit at the back of the bus and drink from seperate water fountains?
no? there are just people who don't agree with what they're doing? what a wretched world
Austin Kelly
Nice the Canadian's post was bp.
Elijah Powell
Social discrimination isn't the same as legal discrimination. A transgender person in their every day life is likely to be sneered at, laughed at, not taken seriously, or misgendered. It doesn't follow that because the personal is not legally oppressed, they are not oppressed at all.
There's a reason transgender people have a suicide rate of around 35%
Levi Gutierrez
You're playing the leftist game of changing the meaning of words. Which is cheating more or less. The answer you get when you ask what the difference between sex and gender is, is the exact answer you want. What if we ask whether there is a correlation between sex and behaviour asshole? Then your argument falls the fuck apart.
Josiah Anderson
>but doesn't the fact that a transwoman today can look indistinguishable We found the sissy-boy. No, men who chop they dicks off and dress as women are not indistinguishable.
Quit trying to get pol to condone your disgusting fetishes.
Parker Smith
>laughed at, not taken seriously, or misgendered
You mean that people recognize their true gender? Which kind of discredits when you said.
>but doesn't the fact that a transwoman today can look indistinguishable
Parker Harris
>35% unless you inerviewed every tranny who killed themselves, which I'm gonna say you didn't, you don't know the reason
it's just as equally valid of a reason that they regretted getting surgery and taking drugs to fulfill an ambition that quickly fleeted.
Your argument lacks substance
Mason Campbell
Gender doesn't exist. Only Sex exists. There are three: >Male. >Female. >Weird anomaly not worth talking about. If you disagree you had your brain filled with jewish pilpul semantic bullshit and are probably beyond saving, maybe kill yourself.
If gender is a social construct, then society, not the individual, would determine ones gender. But in reality gender is just based on your biological sex.
Cooper James
Gender and sex are synonymous. Chromosomes aren't abstract constructs.
It's higher than that, and the rate is comparable to people in literal slavery or Jews in WW2 Germany.
That goes far beyond just people disliking them and into actual mental illness territory
Benjamin Rodriguez
Humanity is a social construct. Change my mind.
Camden Flores
>But in reality gender is just based on your biological sex. Gender and sex are the same thing, feminists just rebranded the word in the 60s in order to better complete their work (the destruction of civilization). If you fall into the trap of using their definitions, you can't win.
David Scott
I would agree only to the point that "traditional gender roles" (ie Man is the breadwinner and Woman is the homemaker) aren't really relevant/necessary in today's society.
Once we get into making up new genders and pronouns, and passing legislation requiring everybody else to play along, now I hate you and want to punch you in the face.
Jose Butler
They CAN look indistinguishable. But only if they start HRT at a young age. But if you realise it at the age of like 25, then you're fucked in terms of looking like the opposite gender. A female who feels male will already have the breasts and defined curved hips at that stage
Nolan Flores
Oh, I'm not in favour of legislation for it. I would be anti-Libertarian if I did that. But I do think on a personal basis you should all the transgender person by their preferred gender if for nothing else than to not look like a dick
Zachary Reed
>"traditional gender roles" (ie Man is the breadwinner and Woman is the homemaker) aren't really relevant/necessary in today's society. Traditional gender roles are society. We're talking about logic, reason, and truth versus chaos, emotion, and relativism.
Parker Edwards
The term "Gender" was coined by a man named John Money. Here's a documentary on his theories and how they backfired on him (youtube.com/watch?v=MUTcwqR4Q4Y) and this hasnt been proven in any form of science anywhere in the scientific community. (non-binary, gender-fluid etc)
You cannot raise a boy to be a girl. You cannot raise a gir to be a boy. If you want to say that gender roles are a social contruct I'll give you that, but being male and being female is biological, nature is the ultimate redpill on how men and women operate in society. This is why men can lift heavy shit and run farther than women on average. This is also why women are more nurturing to people than men. This is why the nursing industry is predominately women and mechanics and tech is predominately men. When you try and change the natural order of men and women, nature will eventually take it back.
other way around, the norm is that they are the same and there has been zero evidence that they are any different. The entire thing was based on a study in the 80s the guy got his doctorate taken away for because he manufactured his own evidence. also see the case of David Reimer.
Gender roles are a result of our instincts which are genetic.
Gender roles are not an immediate function of natural selection but a function of social selection. Logically woman was the first to realize the vulnerability of her child. The wasted resources, emotional investment, and burden to her defenses became apparent. At that moment, mankind realized an ascension of consciousness. Mankind realized that in order for the utmost success of our offspring, we require a multi-role society. Woman cares for, raises, and instills cultural exemplary drama within the children. Man is cursed to a life of never ending work to buttress the family unit from the chaos of nature. It's this shift from naive fuck-and-go life style of our primitive ancestors *cough cough* niggers *cough cough* that lifted mankind from being subjects to nature to being subjects of the social order, culture, and the hierarchy. But what is the selective force in this world of ascended consciousness within the set of hierarchys?
Women
Women select only the men who are most capable of providing for them. Providing resources, defense, habitable order so that they may raise healthy children to revivify the culture into the future. Women are thus the selective force that chooses strong men. With the creation of birth control, abortion, and "equality of outcome" doctrines, women are now able to indulge in their hedonistic wants without repercussion unlike millennia before. This is destroying the underpinning of the west but also mankind as a whole. It's destroying the protective, nurturing, and educating nature of the family unit.
Mason Hughes
>being this retarded There are wayyyyy too many goddamn idiots in this world...
Can we hit the reset button and reduce the population down to 200 Million? Whites only.
Elijah Bell
I don't agree. If somebody has a Christ complex (ie they genuinely believe they are the reincarnation of Jesus Christ) do you humor them just to "not look like a dick"? Or do you tell them "You're not Jesus, STFU."
Literally the exact same thing. The person is clearly delusional, don't play along with their delusion.
Brandon Perez
I love this, solid hard proof the cucks will still argue against
Based TERF's unironically have the correct answer: the meme that gender non-conforming people have to undergo sex change is the erroneous leap. "Misgendering" is a meme, and transpeople are histrionic.
Matthew Howard
99.7%
Jordan Jackson
leafisbest
Benjamin Moore
got it perfectly. gender theory itself is the problem.
Hudson Martinez
No.
that's all for now.
Peace out
Dylan Hill
KEK
Cooper Richardson
If I take my Toyota and paint it red and glue some Ferrari emblems on it It's not gonna sell at auction for $200K.
That's what transgenderism is claiming. You can lop off the cock, take some hormones and grow tits and boom, woman. NOPE doesn't work that way.
When scientists 2000 years from now find your body and they test the DNA it will show that you're a man. NOT a woman.
Are your ancestors gonna sue for discrimination?
I'm gonna sue the auction house for not referring to my hacked up car as a brand new Ferrari.
Why do people want to live in fantasy land?
Brody Cox
Fuck off, Styx
Ayden Gonzalez
>memeflag
Sure you’re rightwing, you just carry on helping the leftists destroy society and fuck up a generation of confused beta males
Michael Thomas
No one is saying you can change your genetics. However, if a man decides to undergo reassignment surgery, the hope is that she will pass as female to the rest of society, and be treated as such by people who aren't transphobes. Thus making the individual feel comfortable.
The way I've heard transgender people describe it is like, imagine if everyday you, as an cis man, woke up and society and your parents and everyone else expected you to dress in a dress, wear makeup, wear earrings and rings, and just generally act like a female. You'd say "This isn't who I truly am! I am a man!"
Dylan Anderson
>That gender roles can change
You mean beta males start doing feminine tasks because their wives tell them to. Gender roles are based on biological realities
Andrew Long
They have a mental illness problem
Jordan Martinez
So, larping. That's all it is, Dudes larping as chicks... Still dudes.
Dylan James
And my response to that is “tranny DEVILS should all end themselves as soon as humanly possible”
Colton Miller
So if I have a body image problem because I'm short, does that mean I have a mental illness?
Austin Reed
Get outta here, Spoonlord.
Cooper Green
No he didn’t, in any way. There are standards of masculinity that always exist, the fact that leftwing retards come along and try to change things doesn’t mean they don’t exist, it just means that leftwing retards are yet again destroying society and denying reality
Aaron Mitchell
Because they’re a bunch of bigoted freaks. Transphobia is a made up word, are you retarded or something? People dislike carnival freaks and don’t want their kids to end up like them but it’s only when some liberal retard comes along and invents a new word that people say “well what about Xphobia”
There is no transphobia any more than there’s freakshow phobia at the circus
Angel Myers
But it's not a Left-wing construct. The young males of today congratulate each other on how many women they've had sex with, how much drugs they've done, how many fights they've gotten into, etc. That's what's considered a man today, but as the user said, what is considered a 'real man' today would have been burned at the stake in the 18th century
Easton Bailey
It's a social construct based on biology. That does not mean it's wrong.
Ryan Mitchell
Well, if the word the Left invents helps normalise it, is that necessarily bad? In a voluntary and free society we Anarcho-Capitalists advocate, ideally everyone should be able to live life as they choose without being abused and discriminated against
Kevin Cooper
I actually know a couple of conservative trannies and no it isnt like that at all. They describe it as an extention of OCD that the body they inhabit is wrong and their body parts feel like growths or some other such thing you'd impulsively and instinctively want to remove, like a scab or whatever. Societal pressure is a thing yeah but you really think when they look in the mirror they don't realize they don't pass for the opposite gender? They kill themselves because they can't deal with having a body that alienates them. There's also signs that transexuality is a social contaminant at least in some of the cases. A lot of people go through a phase in puberty where they experience some level of gender dysphoria, we should not be encouraging these people to go through with a sex change, the vast majority of those teenagers grow out of it.
Robert Sullivan
Because they're mentally ill. We also disciminate against people with schyzophrenia, autism, BPD... Sometimes by locking them up, by giving them various treatments, etc.
When people look funny at trannies, it's mostly because they see an untreated mentally ill person roaming around. That is something to be slightly wary of.
Jaxon Brooks
You dont hang out with many boys do you
Dylan Jackson
it's not a phobia to reject the mentally ill, it's perfectly rational from an evolutionary and survival standpoint.
Benjamin Kelly
It ain't just the frogs they're turning gay.
Femenized nutless taxpayers yay.
Logan Foster
>Gender is a social construct. >Let's start by assuning sex and gender are different.
>I win guys...
Faggots can faggot, still a dude. Dykes can dyke, still a woman.
Austin Peterson
I'm trans height. I am actually 5'2" but I identify as 6'5". If you don't get on your fucking knees and look up at me you are a bigot.
Daniel Jackson
If gender is a social construct, then women were constructed to be bugfuck retarded and massive liabilities to everyone around them.
Brayden Miller
Gender roles are not genders.
Kayden Rivera
>wellll, all their economics are shit and the free market is real >but the most demonic, societally corrosive shit is probably true absolute state of libertarianism
Josiah Adams
Give a small boy, who has not been "socially constructed" the choice between barbies and he-man action figures. Boys will instantly go to he-man. Same with trucks and doll houses, they will go to the trucks. If they like girly things good chances they are fucked up in some way biologically or other environmental factors.
Jacob Williams
it's likely nobody will be able to do so. if you enter with a preconceived notion of it being a social construct and argue semantics on gender being the way one expresses themselves, then of course the attributes attributed to males and females are constructs. that doesn't mean, however, that they are unimportant and factors which aid the stability of a society. i'll leave you with this: males and females naturally express drives for dominance and submission, respectively, with adequate hormonal levels. these drives led society to associate traits with each sex and they act as indicators for both sexes to find suitable mates. should you attempt to feminize a man or masculinize a woman, you impede the ability to perceive these adequately, thus lowering, even if marginally, the ability for the opposite sexes to accurately identify one another and mate, as is the evolutionary mandate.
