Why does the Bible lead me to unchristian conclusions?

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Romans killed Jesus

Semantic argument. Romans 9 is strictly against non-deterministic philosophy. Most Christians I’ve met say free will means they can deviate from God’s single laid out plan. This viewpoint is inherently non-deterministic and contradicts an all powerful all knowing God.

Ok. He still forgave them, which goes against a lot of spurgs points about them killing him

ExposingChristianity.com .

Exactly the reason that Calvinism is superior to all other Christian sects. Orthodox Protestantism is the one true path.

Nice try

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2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So it's a Calvinist you are then.

>this thread

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Free will doesn't exist, repent

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>This viewpoint is inherently non-deterministic and contradicts an all powerful all knowing God.
Not really, god could know all possible futures and you are just picking one.

No he's not. Calvinists don't believe what people seem to want to put on them.

youtube.com/watch?v=6YbOXdL4y2Y

If you only picked one none of the others were possible in the first place.

>contradicts an all powerful all knowing God
If I throw a steak to a starving dog I KNOW the dog will eat the steak, but that doesn't mean the dog has no free will, just that its choice will be self evident to me. To an all knowing God, our decisions are just as transparent as a starving dog's, but that doesn't mean our decisions aren't from our own impetus. All-powerful is not only the power to maintain control, but also the power to grant control. A pre-determined timeline is therefore not antithetical to self agency.

That goes against many other teachings tho.
>God dosent want people to go to Hell. It is against his "plan"
Why does he allow things that are against his plan? That contradicts his power, if free will can defeat the plan of an allpowerful being.

>A pre-determined timeline is therefore not antithetical to self agency.
Oh certainly not. People have agency but that all comes from God. God is the ultimate puppet master and we’re just here for the ride. That’s why I like the Stanley Parable so much. Even though it’s meant to be satire it’s a great representation of a much deeper truth. The narrator was always in control. Even when you think you’re making independent decisions it’s all part of the plan. Did you think you were clever by breaking the Portal level? Nope, that was planned for as well and has its own complete narration.

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Is sin part of God's plan? He knows that its going to happen. Before you were born he knew if you'd go to heaven or hell

if you aren't a Calvinist being from England, then you are from a long line of weak believers.

Oh of course it was. Who knows. Maybe God included hostile npcs for the thrill like we do.

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If you start arguing for not using the bible literally or if you want to be open to the ability of ignoring the parts of the bible you dislike, be prepared for people wanting to ignore the parts of the bible you like.

That's extremely retarded. Why would you make somthing that you know is destined for tourture? Fuck that. Fuck that plan. Fuck him. Hell is real as we belive it is, and im not feeding that bullshit another minute

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It's your choice to make. Who is to say there aren't infinite universes which you chose not to be a retard.

If he chose to make us bend to his will, how would we be free to choose to love him? If you force something to love you, is it the same?

Everyone has the choice to do good or evil. Evil is to be an animal, an NPC, reactive and not critical in thinking. Even Jesus told Peter "get back, Satan!" when Peter acted reactively instead of choosing to follow God's will.

It's a book of stories for morals and history mixed together IMO.
Live by the morals, tell the stories for the morals.

>he got pissed when he didn't choose the choice that he wanted
See? What's the fucking point of free will if your just going to be bullied into making a desicion and punished if you choose differently. Fuck that

>infinite universes

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Because nobody reads the Bible. If you ever read it literalists will hate you.

>Choose between two things. Choose the clearly worse one. Whine about consequences.
Humans rebel because we're fallen people. Rebelliousness is in our blood all the way back to Eve eating the apple. God gives us a choice because he loves us enough to respect out free will, even if it leads to hell.

Bullied? Do you think the universe bullies you for acting like an animal that lives off desires over his conscience?
God gave up his only son to the Romans in order to save humanity. Jesus knew it had to be done, and his follower decided his own personaly fee fees mattered more than what is Right and Rust. Think about it, honestly. Do you live like an NPC too?

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>even if it leads to hell.
i honestly believed Hell was for Lucifer and his angels, for what reason would someone be cast into it? just coz you're pagan or an asshole doesn't make you the devil's angel?
What am I missing?
I get that no one is recalled back to God without going through Christ first(faith alone scriptures alone) but i didnt think hell was necessarily the alternative

Yeah, I'm gonn need a source on that OP. Our evil intentions can still be used to increase God's glory. Abraham and Sarah didn't trust God about Isaac, which ended up causing enmity between Sarah and Hagar, and sorrow for Abraham. Isaac on his deathbed wanted to bless Esau on his deathbed even though God told him that Jacob was to be the blessed one. Jacob deceived his father. This created enmity between Jacob and Esau, with Jacob fleeing the land. Jacob ended up serving and being deceived by Laban. God MAKES us righteous by His own grace and mercy. We can not become righteous by our own actions, rather we can choose to accept God and do righteousness by Him as a result.

Nobody can understand it and make a translation error and cultural misinterpretation free version.

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Why do so many people look at just one or two areas in the bible to get their understanding when it's to be taken as a whole? This laziness and dishonesty truly upsets me.

Faith without works is dead

>not being a perennial traditionalist and upholding Christian tradition in spite of its flaws

Brainlets will never save the West

Pic related explains most of what you are trying to figure out.

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Its all metaphors tho.

>if evil exists how could I possibly choose not to be evil?
>t. every jew

>faith without works is dead
This is true. Works are a demonstration of faith. This is addressed by Paul in 1 and 2 Corinthians when he learns that the church interprets God-given Salvation to mean free reign to party. It is when Abraham offered his son Isaac and when Jacob wrestled with God that these men were assured of their faith. They did not prove it to God, but to themselves. Our works are evidence to ourselves and to others of our faith.
>If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:20

>when you can't properly interpret scripture so you wrest it to your own destrution in your calvinist sluge

youtube.com/watch?v=a16Y0lTFTwI

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Not true. This is Plinko:

youtube.com/watch?v=E7DKxe_m1AM

Now imagine that Bob Barker is God, and you are the disc. Bob knows the disc is going down, and while he can't know for 100% that the disc won't jump up, break the plastic, and land somewhere else, it's a fair bet that it won't. He doesn't know exactly which position it will end up in, but it will end up at the bottom of the board somehow. The individual path it takes, though, that's free will.

lol we should all just go walking to heaven, angels won't be able to stop us

>free will
You are conflating physical and metaphysical on so many levels when you say this.

Free will is dependent on you being alive, which means its entirely deterministic. However, free will refers to your ability to choose to do good and avoid evil in circumstances where MANY possibilities exist, but only one action can be chosen and the action you chose is typically derivative of your value structure with a default on 'instant gratification'.

Free will only exists in a context of alternatives. A man forced to shoot an innocent man is not evil, unless he uses his free will to subjectively *enjoy* killing an innocent man. Even in a perfectly externally deterministic context, there are internal 'freedoms', one of which is the freedom to ascribe value to moral realities by degree and to perverse or undermine them.

There is no truly deterministic refutation of free will. If everything is out of your control, you are ignorant or helpless, both which are fundamentally different to 'having the choice and ability to ascribe value and to follow through with it in a space of potential choices to the contrary'.

Most people by this understanding are civil, and civility is a type of goodness that is chosen in part because it is also extremely efficient. However since the default is instant gratification, it takes effort to be moral and to restrain these gratifications when it becomes uncivil or when-- say in politics-- it means engaging in a system that damages public trust.

Today my girlfriend got yelled at by her teacher when she told the truth about how many times she met up with her group partner to do the team exercises. She did not meet up once. Most of the class did not meet up once. But after getting yelled at, most of the class lied and said they did.

Everyone had free will and chose to lie even if it was immoral because to them, avoiding pain is more gratifying and simple than telling the truth, even here.

But the entire plinko path depends on how it was dropped. It’s not truly random. If you think free will is just randomness cryptologists have been trying to develop true free will for ages.

L Ray Smith pill Jow Forums approved preacher

youtu.be/L2sRdwaGwgA

Alright, I concede. You have clearly put thought into your beliefs and have a logically sound belief system. Your specific definition of free will that is compatible with determinism is certainly real and correct. Congratulations, it’s not often someone wins my little games.

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cont

This means that free will and determinism are perfectly compatible because they refer to different realities. Economic choice situations ARE deterministic. Some choice must be made. However, the choice is dependent on the value system you have, which can be changed, perversed or deminished in the face of stimuli. The FACT of this influence and perception of choice is 'free will' as a kind of 'entity' of mind it is perfectly reasonable and must actually exist else we ALWAYS resort to the default state of self indulgence.

In fact, this is exactly what we see. When people are told their 'free will' does not exist. They become measurably more immoral and less concerned about hurting others. If free will did not exist, even if it were contingent to some absolute physical reality, then it would make no difference making the claim.

Free will does not mean will unbounded by timespace. It is an acknowledgement of an economic reality and the psychological reality of choice which is extremely measurable. There is NO conflict with determinism or the concept of gods plan.

Since choice is the prime means by which the value action is determined and this is subjectively felt as controllable, we can talk of gods 'plan' only in reference to our adherence to his 'will'. Sin then would be when we fail to live up to this will and obtain some reality less than his plan at that moment, even if from some cosmic position, you 'needed' to go through that 'sin' to come to appreciate gods love.

If gods plan is deterministic then it just means that as long as you follow and are united with gods will, his plan (which as a potential) is realized on earth marked forever by timespace by your own subjective choice. This unifies all parts of mans reality to god and with god and we become the symbol of god and the sacrifice as Christ had.

imagine that you can only convince people to join your religion using anime girls rather than its own merit.
god this board is pathetic.

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>heaven can't possibly exist because it won't have free will.
Nice non-sequitur. Look up sanctification, it's possible to have known sin in the past and to be unable to perform it.

If I have no free will how can I?

you got a good point there, Satan.

I think this discussion is a little over your head if that's what you took away from my comment. I never said it was random. Quite the opposite. In fact, I anthropomorphized the disc in my original explanation, so I have no idea where you got that. But I'll try again. And this time, try very hard to overcome your obvious lack of imagination.

It's about point of view. The disc only sees each option as it comes to it, maybe a couple of options ahead if it's particularly astute. But Bob sees all possible paths for it to take. Bob doesn't know which one. But he knows where it will end up. The disc, on the other hand, is just navigating it's life as it happens. Now is the question of what cosmic force is represented by the player (in the video I linked, it would be soldier). That's anybody's guess. But as you can see, free will can exist in a universe with an omnipotent god. If you can't see, then you have accepted NPC programming, and have to break that before you can be capable of any free thought on matters like this.

I know every possible move you could make in tic-tac-toe. It is a solved game, I am omniscient in the confines of the game and can literally never lose no matter what you do. Thus I make all your choices for you, right? That's your logic. I control all your actions because I know what your actions could be and the ultimate outcome of any of them.

Aha. I got sucked in. Well played, faggot. I should know better by now.

>But Bob sees all possible paths for it to take. Bob doesn't know which one.
BUT GOD IS ALL KNOWING

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I’m just testing you guys for logical consistency which you personally have failed.

Just get right and stop begin a jiggaboo

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Oh no. Some random faggot on the internet doesn't approve of my perspective on something.

HOW WILL I EVER RECOVER

Does this mean I don't need to stop fapping?

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Free will and determinism are not mutually exclusive. You choose your life but god knows what you will do.

Heaven is for fine beings then we. In fact that is arguably the goal of all the life and pain on earth.

You can make a nice heaven if you weed out the assholes then leave the flesh behind.

Google searches make choices. Does that mean it has free will?

If I make a smuggy of a viewpoint, it is wrong

God controls the NPCs. The rest of us have free will.

Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and disobeyed GOD, and thus they are supposed to be thrown to hell for sinning. And we because of their offspring, are supposed to be cast down, too.

There were actually 2 that were "taken" to Heaven with GOD. Elijah and Enoch, both were faithful to GOD

Fuck you

Fuck all of you

Christ is God.

This thread is done

Maybe don't take any of it literally you dumb fuck.

if God is perfectly just, how can free will exist?

We were created in the image of God with the capacity to be Gods not born Gods

but absolutely perfect justice implies that destiny is a thing and nothing we do or say or think makes any difference because it will happen anyways

Amen brah

>
that's right fake jew amalekite.
free will is three will. your
home planet saturn. free will
is not gods will it is saturns
will, your will.

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The real npcs are the people who aren’t self-aware enough to realize they don’t have free will.

>perfect justice implies that destiny is a thing
God is perfectly just. Man was created with the capacity to disobey God. Man's disobedience leads to death (Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.) God would be justified in obliterating man immediately for disobeying Him. Instead, He sent Jesus Christ to die for us.
>nothing we say or do makes a difference because it will happen anyway
Did you not choose to open Jow Forums? Just because it happened, did you not choose it? Only God can reveal Himself to us, but we can choose whether to accept or deny Him.

no, it is clearly said that God experiences the world linearly like us
how else would lucifer rebel against him if he already knew?
if God is all knowing, then that means he already knows if we go to heaven or hell, and not intervening means that he willfully damns you to it
that whole thought process is gay

how is it possible to disobey God if he created the physical world and all the instructions my phsyical form is made to follow?

That is why there is no true Justice in our world. This physical realm is umbalanced and unjust. Do you even Plato's Republic?
If God gave us free will, we would be forced to love him. He clearly wants us to choose to love him, because a choice implies genuineness.

Making choices doesn't mean it's an exercise in free will. Cats and dogs make choices, but do they have free will?

what makes the physical realm unjust? just because bad stuff happens doesnt mean it's unjust.

>And we because of their offspring, are supposed to be cast down, too.
wait when was it ever said or written that sin was hereditary? how does the salvation thing work then if only 2 ever got a shot at it? im new to this
Bible I use is Geneva 1599 if that helps

"I shall not want" = Don't allow himself to want anything but that the will of God be done?

That's an interesting translation, by the way I don't get why they are so many different translation, we have just to ask to the Jews for knowing the text.

Because you're reading it right.

Because scripture is supplemental to religion, not religion itself.

Romans 9 does not say "people have no free will", but it says "regardless of how you exercise your free will, God has already decided upon whom God will show mercy".

The only people for which this really causes confusion are the ones who, for whatever reason, believe their thoughts and acts "get them into God's mercy". Paul specifically wrote in Ephesians 2 faith is from God, good works we do were created by God in advance for us to do. We, humans, don't have the capacity to do "ultimately good" things without God because of the nature of the fall of man.

So who has this wrong? Well, unfortunately quite a few people, but no one has it "exactly right" because God tells us through Paul "none of us are righteous".

So what's the answer? Hold on to God, pray his will be done, ask that you can be a better part of that plan. Don't argue with people who does it better, do not boast, trust in God to sort it out.

Spoilers OP

You will not figure out the world before you die

So what youre saying is that we make choices but none of them will fuck with what God ulitmately wants?

Sin is hereditary.
“thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5

The universe is imbalanced by nature. Number theory can explain perfectly the circumfrence of a circle, but a physical circle will eventually degrade and change due to forces around it.
Your philosophies make it impossible to define true Justice, because it varies from person to person. And who is to say the man who stole your bike will not eventually find his "karma?"

The point is we have free will. If we did not, nothing would happen and we would be autonomous, lurching from one reactive stimuli to the next, like an NPC.

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