Just ordered this

Oh then I guess I won’t need to read that part.

the book was a huge success and spengler saw it as his big work so he republished it with more content later on so to speak to clarify it

it's worth reading anyway only if you speak and understand german at a native level

people who aren't german can not understand this book

I've got this book and Spengler just goes on and on and on and on trying to over analyze and explain a point I already understood.

The whole book is this way. It really could have been a much shorter read. It's like he assumes everyone is a moron, so he has to dissect each and every one of his points to the smallest detail.

That said, it's probably better in German, but German isn't some magical language like you are pretending it is.

kys commie scum

I just finished volume 1.
Spengler is autistic.
His analysis of Classical man, simply put, is wrong. He shallowly projects the just mundane and materialistic philosophy onto them in an attempt to uplift his own failures as an "intellectual".

Part 1 was severely disappointing since it basically was him autirtically patching together things he liked into the blanket label of "Faustian" and things he hated as "classical". His notion of the Become versus Becoming was near but not nearly as powerful of a methodology as he clearly believed. The only parts he was on point about were his scathing critiques of metropolitanism and materialism. Other than that I found myself rolling my eyes and skimming through his historical and artistic analysis.

I'm looking forward to reading part 2

No, it's easily understandable. Spengler just likes to Spengle on and on about knowing more than everyone else when he literally doesn't.

Don't let the chapter on numbers deter you from finishing it. I ordered Decline of the West, opened it, encountered the chapter regarding numbers, and put it down for months. I then returned, read over it carefully, and read the entire thing. Perhaps one of the most influential books I've ever read.

Numbers reflect each Culture/Civilizations primal impulsive. Thus, Western/American civilization developed calculus and deferential equations as an expression of the Faustian Soul and of infinite space and profound distance. The Heliocentric model of the universe implies the infinitude of space -- which is why the West developed it. It fit inside our primal impulse. The Greeks, most interestingly, proposed a Heliocentric model of the universe. Specifically Aristarchus. However, the Greek primal impulse -- symbolized by the body and of material matters -- could not recognize infinitude and distance as us Westerners. Thus, they rejected it. Likewise, the Magian Arab Culture -- which overlaps Classical Culture -- could not accept it, because its primal impulse is limited -- it views the universe a closed-in dome, as we see in the Pantheon.

In all, a Culture's primal impulse determine its character. Whatever fits within that framework is accepted -- whatever does not is completely rejected.

That’s not true I read it in English and I understood it lol. I think you mean we don’t understand the nuances but in the end if you read between the lines you still get the message.

he doesnt overanalyze anything, he is just very well versed in every subject

he did somtehing that almost nobody did at his time: he studied every subject at a universitary level which also explains why to somebody who isn't educated in everything it seems drawn out and unnecessary

you are just deluding yourself if you think you understood his works

i could simply ask you: why will the west fall according to spengler? if you understood the book, you can answer this with one word and it has nothing to do with degeneracy or race

Evola did a better job with the Become vs Becoming thing for sure

you are deluding yourself, i'm 100% sure of it, somebody who has no clue about German and or ancient greek can't understand the difference between greek and faustian numbers that spengler explains in german by using the terms "Raum" (which has no translation in english in this case)

Classical man's materialism and focus on the body is reflected in his rejection of Heliocentrism. Though proposed, Classical man could not accept such a model of the universe, as it did not fit into the framework of his primal impulse.

A big vomit of word salad. Reading a summary of Spenglers ideas is far more useful than trying to slog through his awful book.
Many people say because it was written in German it just doesn’t translate well. I found it similar to neitzchie, far too much obtuse prose to cover some very simple concepts.

Good thing he spends the next 300 more pages explaining the exact same point

Do Germans honestly think their concepts are hard to understand? Stop smelling your own farts so much lol

Summary "give us all your shit and all your guns. We promise we will take care of you and not horde everything for ourselves. And yes, we really think you're this fucking dumb."

There you go. Marx, Engles, lenin and Stalin summarized.

you can't translate it at all, because its not only German, it's old german and on a very high academic level most words which have no direct translation in english and a lot of words which are not even used anymore in modern
daily german

the book itself is incredible, and it covers the most important people on the earth, the faustian people, and its a book meant for them only

you can't understand it , because you are not one of them

>Classical man must be materialistic because he isn't Faustian
>all world feelings are different and cannot be explained to one another, but here's how we're the only ones who experience the divine

This is what Spengleniggers actually believe. Read Evola, you retard

>I’m special, the post

Spenglers conceptions of numbers and their relationship to each Culture is something Americans simply cannot wrap their head around.

>t. brainlet

German is unique in that it can say more with less.
Their words are longer but have more meaning in them. English is short and can be more easily manipulated to have multiple meanings depending on word placement.
German is better for philosophy because it is less vague as it ages, whereas English can change multiple times within a generation.
Spengler is a good writer because he puts a historical summary into a philosophical framework that transcends time.
You wouldn’t make an agricultural manual about growing flowers with a history of flowers. Youd explain seasons and harvests.
He did the opposite.
The classical man was less like the Western man. In a material and spiritual sense.

he spends so much time explaining it, because it illustrates 1. why the greeks and romans are horseshit and completely irrelevant compared to the faustians and 2. why the faustian soul leads to its own demise

the book has nothing to do with race and or degeneracy, it has to do with faustians never ending hunger for knowledge and efficiency which results in them ultimately creating machines which replace themselves

non faustian people can't understand this, nor will they ever suffer from this

I must have missed that; seems to me that Evola's primary methodology relies on hierarchy, Top Central Polar Axis vs bottom consequence

What was his take on it?

>t. brainlet throwing around strawmen

Neat

A long read with many passing references to other works and events you better have a good grasp of.

Classical man was more materialist, look at his outlook and ideals.

>Classical man was less like Modern Western Man
Yeah, he was Superior

>commie who doesn’t realize Spengler is in half part siding with Marx and Engels on the critique of modern man
You’re a baiter and retarded one at that

Look at this know-it-all brain-let faggot. Based on your responses, I can tell you haven't even read Spengler -- only the Wikipedia page.

Everyone, ignore this fucking guy until he has actually read the book. I don't pay much mind to people whose opinions resemble a steaming load of dog-shit.

Evola’s take? It was just his way to distinguish the different mindsets of the times and civilizations. He tied it into his historoire better because he had more occult knowledge to explain the hermetic spiritualism behind it than Spengler. But Spengler definitely has his nieche of knowledge that he’s well versed in so his perspective is good as well.

Maybe to modern man. But classical urban to western urbanite are more alike than classical urbanite and rural urbanite.
Likewise the inverse is true.

Reactionary Thomas Carlyle influenced Marx, interestingly enough. Marx was, in a sense, a revolt against the modern world.

*classical urbanite

>Spengler is autistic.
>His analysis of Classical man, simply put, is wrong. He shallowly projects the just mundane and materialistic philosophy onto them in an attempt to uplift his own failures as an "intellectual".
This is true. Spengler is a butthurt retard. He's Hegel light for people who can't pass college classes and he reflects the standard Prussian prejudices of 100 years ago, which makes him pompous, stupid, and boring. No Jow Forumstard actually likes him. They only pretend too. Save your time and read a real philosopher instead, like Kant or Hegel.

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You even misspelled Engels you larping baiter faggot

Marx was influenced by Clausewitz and Adam Smith as well.

He tries to lump the Nordic Eddas, Wagner, Chilvary/Grail Quests, and Oak worship into the Faustian model None of those fit in with "hunger for knowledge, efficiency and machines". In fact the whole thing seemed like "thing I like are Faustian", while ignoring their obvious connections to Aryan spirituality found in cultures across the globe.

Evola does a much better job of explaining the true heart of civilization's rise and fall. Spengler revealed himself to be an autistic hack pretty quickly.

you don't understand just how lacking ancient romans and greeks were, because you think that what you learn in school today is built upon them, which is not true

ancient greeks didn't have a number system. for them 2*2 does not exist for example, 2*2 only exists as an euclidean geometrical object i.e. as an area but the equation itself does not exist or make any sense

romans and greeks were largely restricted to 2 dimensions, they are also SLAVES to nature and try to work WITH nature

faustians and the faustian soul defies god by default, and ENSLAVES nature

comparing classical man to faustian is like this:

nigger tribe : lvl 0
roman /greek : lvl 5
faustian : lvl 10000000000

basically faustian unlock cheat codes like mathematics in infinite dimensions (as opposed to mathematics only in 2 dimensions and not even completely in 3 dimensions), infinite food, infinite energy, flight

people who think romans or greeks can even compare to faustians are completely delusional and retarded
romans and greeks couldn't even come up with such feats for their gods, it means they couldn't even dream about such things becoming true

Yes. I’d say more so revolted by the modern world. Marx wasn’t a revolutionary as much as he was a prophet. I’m not a commie and I don’t think it can work outside of family units but there is no shortage of people trying ;see everywhere in the bourgeoise west.
Nietzsche and Marx said nearly the same thing word for word in Zarathustra Speaks and the Communist Manifesto about Modern man.

Man is in decline, and technology the crutch we use to descend the stairs into weakness.

a shitty meme book
one of his main points is that all art is degenerate from the Renaissance on. He basically thinks 970 CE was the peak of Humanity. Also he believes that the end result of technology and our moral framework is essentailly nuclear annihilation and that there's literally nothing anyone can do about it.

I have the words highlighted in my copy where he says those exact two phrases within 1 paragraph of each other.
Spengler' analysis of Classical man is rooted in his contempt for virile action, his impotent intellectualism. His analysis of the symptoms of the decline are real powerful, but his valuation and understanding of civilization is clearly rooted in his very myopic contemporary worldview which is glaringly obvious to anyone who can critical discern his motives.

Virile action > impotent intellectualism
One worships through deed, the other thought. Both can strive for the divine, only one deserves it.

Yes you can translate it. German is not that special, sorry but you are incorrect.

Spengler had some neat ideas, but a lot of his ideas are wrong.

asgard doesnt exist in a specific place, it exists in an infinitely distant place and infinity is a concept which does exist in hinduism/buddhism as well as faustian cultures, but not in ancient greek/roman ones, chivalry as well is a very faustian concept because overcoming humanity is exclusively faustian

the nordic race itself is a product of the faustian mentality, in the end defying nature and perfecting the human morphology over thousands of generations

the faustian soul exists only in germanic people and maybe at some time in some indians/brahmanists who used it in their concepts of inifinity and the number 0

I've read all of volume 1, even shared quotes I highlighted with my friends.
Spengler is just flat ass wrong and you're a fool to believe him. He even says that Classical man worshipped the Cyprus and that the oak was Faustian when it's a well known fact that the oak is Zeus's sacred tree. The man was a retard with a bone to pick and you fell for it

>7027▶
> (You)

you are wrong. there is no translation for the term "Raum" as Spengler puts it , which makes the first 1/2 of the book and almost everything about art completely useless to anybody who doesnt understand german

and the idea of the faustian soul is not from Spengler, it is from Goethe originally

>I

a bone to pick with whom? the book is simply a description of 1. what the faustian soul is 2. how it differs from others 3. how it will meet its own demise

the only one who is picking a bone is you by referring to some obscure detail

I've only read the abridged version, which basically has summary paragraphs for whole sections that it deems are worth cutting to shorten the whole. Spengler himself was involved in abridging it however, so at least its not trying to hide something. Basically, fuck science, follow intuition, proceeds along those lines in super abstract survey of art and philosophy across different cultures to establish their different themes, and to find their common forms and cycles. Follows that up with eerily prescient model for the life cycles they follow based on that - I guarantee you will find the last few chapters nailing all the major problems and trends of our society today.

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Mins rephrasing that?
I'm having difficulty parsing this language

I think Odin is the reason they are lumped in. But Spengler should have divided between Eastern Slavic Norse influenced world and Western Germanic Norse influence world.
Odin is very Germanic, the other gods are more akin to Slavic gods in similarity. Odin is entirely unique to the Western peoples having no counterpart in Slavic or Classical mythology. Odin and Mimir was where Spengler though the Nords had a taste of the Faustian spirit.
When Odin gives his eye for knowledge, when he stabs himself and crucifies himself to learn the meaning of the runes. Imagine blinding yourself to gain a watch and stabbing yourself or carving letters into your torso to learn how to read.
That’s the modern equivalent of what Odin did.
The grail quests do capture a certain Faustian idea that a sacred item may be pursued at any cost.
The Faustian archetype is one who will give anything to achieve something, particularly of a metaphysically valuable nature.
The west industrialized because we thought we could conquer evil. The east did not because they thought they could outthink evil and change their view of it, to deny it away. The west made machines to defeat evil (suffering, hunger, shortage), the east embraced it. And thus one with a will to conquer outpaced one with a will to endure.

Aryan spirituality concerning war is Faustian, risk death to gain something that is glorious, no matter how short lived.

Evola does explain better the rise and fall of civilizations, but Spengler puts it into perspective.

the dead tree is in ancient Iranian Vendidad as well in which Ahura Mazda takes a sword from out of the tree.

I like Evola’s perspective about Hyperborea and the primordial race because it takes migration patterns better into consideration whereas I think Spengler attributes too much to the Germanic region.

If western man continues to exist, he shall continue to make increasingly deadly weapons that can be used from increasingly longer distances.

>p

This is the best quote from Spengler which describes the Faustian Soul:

"Zur Naturerkenntnis kann man erzogen werden, der Geschichtskenner wird geboren. Er begreift und durchdringt die Menschen und Tatsachen mit einem Schlage, aus einem Gefühl heraus, das man nicht lernt, das jeder absichtlichen Einwirkung entzogen ist, das in seiner höchsten Kraft sich selten genug einstellt. Zerlegen, definieren, ordnen, nach Ursache und Wirkung abgrenzen kann man, wenn man will. Das ist eine Arbeit; das andre ist eine Schöpfung. Gestalt und Gesetz, Gleichnis und Begriff, Symbol und Formel haben ein ganz verschiedenes Organ. Es ist das Verhältnis von Leben und Tod, von Zeugen und Zerstören, das in diesem Gegensatz erscheint. Der Verstand, das System, der Begriff töten, indem sie »erkennen«. Sie machen das Erkannte zum starren Gegenstand, der sich messen und teilen läßt. Das Anschauen beseelt. Es verleibt das Einzelne einer lebendigen, innerlich gefühlten Einheit ein. Dichten und Geschichtsforschung sind verwandt, Rechnen und Erkennen sind es auch. "

Even here there exists no translation, because schauen und sehen is BOTH translated to "seeing/looking at" in English, but it doesnt mean the same in German. Somebody who doesn't know German natively can never understand this book.

I’ve always thought this quote was stupid as fuck. It’s essentially principled defeatism like that which the GOP practiced before trump.
Adapt and survive, the future belongs to those who show up.
Clinging to abstraction of the past and tradition and going to the grave because of it is an evolutionary failure.

Art falls under “intellectualism” and the divine is seen only when war and art coalesce.

Raum, do you mean Room?

If Spengler likes to make up pretend words then he shouldn't be surprised if no one understands them.

In what context does Spengler use Room?

Expanse? Space? My Pretend Faustian Landscape?

Poopoopeepee I am the great race of Thule and vril and I post on Jow Forums

art is everything that is artificial i.e. not natural

Doesn't Spengler himself say that Wisdom > Intelligence?
What you shared was all intelligence, without wisdom is it baseless and useless. We can never understand the Classical man's worldview, Spengler himself says that and yet assumes that because they didn't express the world the same way we must be somehow superior. Spengler projects a Faustian understanding of spirituality onto the past and claiming superiority. It's like saying everyone before us must have been brainless because they didn't have the internet.

He clearly states that 1800s Germany was the height of western civilization.

Have you ever learned a third or a fourth language? If you become good at understanding cultures, histories, and contexts you understand these “undefinable” concepts actually have equal concepts in other languages as well, and through interference you can understand them very well.

Muslims say the same shit about the Quran and I read that too and understood it. I don’t get you people you get so automatically attached to the patriotism instead of seeing the hermetic knowledge behind it all.

well ride the tiger is basically
>lel the world is a degenerate trash fire beyond redemption, just be red pilled and based, but no point really fuck life sucks, do whatever i guess

Tyrone in the cotton field and Frithurikaz in the vineyard have more in common with eachother than Tyrone has with JZ and Frithurikaz has with Harald King of Norway

> I can’t find an unabridged version anywhere
You jelly?

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>Raum, do you mean Room?
>If Spengler likes to make up pretend words then he shouldn't be surprised if no one understands them.
>In what context does Spengler use Room?
>Expanse? Space? My Pretend Faustian Landscape?

there is no translation, as i said, in modern german Raum means translated to english just room and in mathematics space, but thats not what it means in Spenglers book

same with the difference between schauen und sehen, which both just means see/look at something in English , but has hugely different meanings in German

Spengler also didnt make the word up, he borrowed it from philosophers Hegel and Kant. and uses it to illustrate the differences between classical and faustian art+mathematics as well as natural sciences in general

>evolutionary failure
This type of language is why you don’t understand the meaning of “principled defeatism”
The future belongs to whom fate deigns.

Exactly, it is all understandable.

We just need the conversion factor, that's all. There's no esoteric magic to it, unless you are intentionally trying to hide the explanation.

>there’s no esoteric magic
Get a load of this goy

Then explain in what context Spengler used the word Raum, and I can absolutely guarantee you there is an English alternative.

They dont have a concept for it, because they simply didnt meet the conditions to come up with them and never had a use for them.
It's the same reason why you'll find many german words in mathematics still, because 90% of modern mathematics was created by faustian people (not strictly germans only) , which don't really have any translation so they just keep using them in German. Or they come up with word by word translations which don't necessarily mean anything or the same.

There is no esotericism in Spenglers work at all. He just explains the differences, existence and predicts how faustians will end themselves.
To somebody who is not faustian and doesn't understand german his works will never truly resonate.

Just because they didn’t express it one way doesn’t mean they didn’t have those concepts. It’s about what each culture values, not what they can muster in their minds. Concepts never stay unexplainable.

>overcoming humanity is exclusively Faustian
Fucking kek you need to pick up a book. Every Solar spiritual Tradition involves a Transcendent path taken by a virile hero. Those myths you recall have much more in common with the Doric Herculean Myth than they do with "Faust", specially when you consider the Grail's motif of 12 knights of the round table, Avalon (island of apples), and the solar notions of Transcendence and divine heroes. The fact that he tried to lump Norse shit into his model was laughably retarded since they clearly do not fit in with his favorite play which is based much more deeply on Judeo-Christian values than Aryan, where the purified whore uplifts the Impotent "logos" Loser to heaven and makes the big baddy angry.

>

there probably isn't , its the same with schauen/sehen, you kjnow what it means when you understand german, but you can't translate it into english because the words dont exist in english

as i said many times, you need to be really high level native at german to understand spengler , not even high IQ or anything, just to understand the text itself

and you also need to have a very broad education because a lot of the things he writes about are at a university level of 1900s in art,history, physics, mathematics, philology, philosophy

i doubt there exist many people who understand ALL of it and i also doubt there existed many at all who understood it all

but even if you dont understand all of it you can only understand the faustian soul that he describes if you understand german

alternatively you can also just read Faust and get an idea where spengler gets his idea from

His designation as to what the Spirit of Western Civilization and Classical civilization and subsequent valuation of both falls flat. From this broken model he derives his morphology of the rise and fall of said civilization's. He clearly projects his own biases and proclivities toward 1800s Germany, starting there as the height of all human society and goes from there. The West was dead and degenrate long before then.

>

spengler doesnt deal with esoteric concepts much at all, and he himself states in the book that the historic facts he has are only as current as the time he is living in

so you are sperging out about something that is completely meaningless

also norse mythology is faustian , the play itself has not much to do with the term but the main character does because he is a prototypical faustian soul

No, you just aren't explaining it.

You don't need a high level of German to understand it.

Just tell me right now what it is.

you are wrong. the fall of western civilization is not becaues of "degeneracy" , and if you think taht you have not understood him at all
the fall of the faustian human is inevitable, because the faustian can not change his own strive to infinite power
it has absolutely nothing to do with the fall of the romans or greeks etc. they are seperated
spengler simply stated that first cultures and then civilization after cultures dies and at last even civilizations die out in a cyclical manner

classical civilization has nothing to do with western civilization , rome is not the west, ancient greeks are not the modern west

Truth

there are words which have a meaning in one language, but dont have one in another, that's all yo ucan say , it's not like im trying t o withhold something from you just so i can sperg out you faggot

the rewality is simply the words dont exist in english

Grail quests are absolutely too virile for what he defines as the Faustian. There is nothing about knowledge or understanding. The only connection he brings in is "lonely guys walking around" which nearly made me break out laughing. Evola does the Grail Quest some real justice in his Mystery of the Grail and its origins in the Solar Spiritual Tradition become quite clea, something Spengler's Faustian model almost wholesale rejects.

Read Imperium by Francis Parker Yockey afterwards, it's considered a sequel

Maybe I'll sound stupid on this matter. In Hegel's work are there prediction for upcoming times?

faustian does not exclusively mean knowledge or understanding.

the grail quest is ulitmately the quest for eternal life = defeat of god himself = purely faustian

>Maybe I'll sound stupid on this matter. In Hegel's work are there prediction for upcoming times?
Yes. Read his lectures on Aesthetics for his views on the various stages of history, mapped loosely onto the narrative of the progression of Spirit through various levels of development.

Unlike Spengler, Hegel is actual smart (and derived a lot from Hegel and Nietzsche, only in more dumbed-down and butthurt form).

Unironically I agree.
What I took away from ride the tiger was that motivation for strength and achievement must come completely from within, because every institution of traditional meaning is rotten.
But still there was a lot of obtuse language added as filler which is typical for philosophy from that era.

Well my problem is that Spengler doesn't even bring up race or spirituality in any serious manner. He only looks at art and philosophy and ends there, so his entire world view becomes a hodgepodge of Judeo-Christian spirituality mixed with Aryan worldfeel which becomes quite apparent when he describes Light as feminine like Mary and it being the one that can actually conquer darkness in the form of Satan while we men toil fruitlessly with masculine force. That shit is degenerate as fuck and shows just how far declined Western Civilization already was when this dude wrote his work

Bullshit, you are wrong faggot, and a lying faggot at that.

The reality is that you are pretending like this concept cannot be explained to anyone who does not speak German.

That is simply not true at all.

He isn't arguing for sticking to tradition in the face of progress. He is arguing that the "progress", or disintegration more aptly put, is simply happening to our society as part of its life course. So we just have to tough it out and do what we know to be right, so while our culture will still cease, it will at least come to a worthy end.

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>. The Heliocentric model of the universe implies the infinitude of space -- which is why the West developed it. It fit inside our primal impulse. The Greeks, most interestingly, proposed a Heliocentric model of the universe. Specifically Aristarchus. However, the Greek primal impulse -- symbolized by the body and of material matters -- could not recognize infinitude and distance as us Westerners.

This is really one of the most fascinating aspects of the book. Its so curious why the Greeks never developed calculus despite being so aware of the problems and so close to understanding infinitesimals as Zeno's paradoxes of motion show us.