Debunking Protestantism in one go

One of the biggest Protestant Theologians, if not the biggest
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth

Why do Catholics believe that intercession with Mary will give them more favor with God?

I said that w/o reading. You're clearly playing defense, with little results I might add. And you make it all about the protestants strength, their openness to reason.
I do admit that the culture has gone full retard, but you're stuck in the 1500's, protestants in the 1700's. In the latter with good regard. The Catholic Church was always supposed to be retarded when Jesus came back. There's clearly a great falling away that is already in place. The Catholic Church not excluded.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and ithe man of lawlessness2 is revealed, jthe son of destruction,3

Nice seeing whites getting caught up in the shekel-collectors-story for a change

It's Karl Barth that said that my friend.
He died in the 1960s, also I heard this from a priest in Brazil called Padre Paulo Ricardo

Catholics literally say they use Mary (and saints) as an intermediary. So unless they are lying, "how do you know what they are thinking" is a stupid thing to say.

Anybody that debates with a strawman version of the arguments they think their opponent has is scared of actual debate.

Unbiblical Catholic doctrine BTFO:

youtu.be/d1xZTPY98Oc

>It's Karl Barth that said that my friend.
Go eat a dick. Its basic Christian theology if you can read. Is he your Messiah? I got a better one.

Yes, and all of that is directly related to the fact that Jesus was also a man on earth, and due the cognition from it, which protestants neglect

>Catholics literally say they use Mary (and saints) as an intermediary.
Due to the humane presence of Christ on Earth, therefore the fact that He is part man, shows that the cognition by watching Mary and the Saints as something Holy leads towards the divine and the intercession of God by them
>Go eat a dick.
KEK, my friend. Karl is the most respected protestant theologian of this century. His whole argument against idolatry is exactly that the human mind and cognition is contaminated by the original sin as Christ wasn't a man and solely a God when he descended upon Earth

Why do Catholics claim Mary has a perpetual virginity, even though it is well known Jesus had siblings?
Why do Catholics claim the church to be some earthly institution, instead of a body of believers? The institution part is entirely man-made. Except for what is explicitly mentioned in the epistles of St. Paul regarding the authority of church leaders.
Do Catholics believe it is necessary to be physically baptized to receive salvation?
Where does the doctrine of purgatory come from?

>Christ wasn't a man and solely a God when he descended upon Earth
Karl sounds like a heretic

Because of the Humanity of Christ which protestants neglect, therefore the fact that cognition can lead towards God and not solely the faith in Jesus. The humanity of Christ leads towards all the temporal things including the Catholic Church, the apostolic succession, the pope and its doctrines etc
That isn't written in the Bible m8, to the point that even the Catholic Church had a huge debate over it in the Council of Ephesus and they decided He is also a man along being a God

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#1 Never heard of him as an attentive layman.

#2
>His whole argument against idolatry is exactly that the human mind and cognition is contaminated by the original sin as Christ wasn't a man and solely a God when he descended upon Earth

I'm not even sure what that means.My understanding of idolatry is that anything can become an idol. Even prestige and a Church , as it were, that is otherwise good to God. He didn't happen by chance to ask for money did he? My quick gander of "protestant' Christianty in Brazil says he did.

I've never known a protestant, other than this Karl Barth character, that ever claimed that Jesus was not also a man as well as God.

You idiots baptise children. Thats all i need to know to prove you are pagans. He who BELIEVES AND IS BAPTISED shall be saves. Babies cant confess shit

>It's Karl Barth that said that my friend.
It was Paul. How much money did you and your relatives give him btw.

>I'm not even sure what that means.My understanding of idolatry is that anything can become an idol.
Exactly, because of human cognition. Catholics equal Human cognition as something that leads towards the Divine, therefore justifying the Image of Virgin Mary, the church, the eucharist and everything. The protestants think in reverse, as the only thing that justifies a natural idolatry towards statues is by defining the Analogia Entis as something wrong as they think everything is an icon therefore considering the human mind incapable of not generating icons through rationality as it is permeated by Sin from the Original Sin, therefore equating the cognition of an Image to God, therefore worshiping. Therefore only Jesus himself is a direct mediator towards God and nothing else, not even human rationality
Well, ask your pastor about it. I am honestly curious about it. Because as I am reading about this idolatry subject the only thing that justifies a natural idolatry towards statues is by defining the Analogia Entis as something wrong, therefore considering the human mind incapable of not generating icons through rationality as it is permeated by Sin from the Original Sin. Therefore only Jesus himself is a direct mediator towards God and nothing else, not even human rationality

who is Paul?

Fpbp

>I've never known a protestant, other than this Karl Barth character, that ever claimed that Jesus was not also a man as well as God.

You're talking docetism and gnosticism my fren with these people. Joel (((osteen))) might be the best practioneer in the US.----Lift some weights and give me gibs! Feel good about everything!

The baptize cleans every previous sin as it is permeated by the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't guarantee that you will be in a State of Grace forever therefore the need for confession and partaking in the Sacraments

God doesn't need your consent or money for His endevours, He'll do it anyway. Don't worry.

>You're talking docetism and gnosticism my fren with these people.
Uhm, show me where in the Bible where it claims that Jesus was also a man

I don't think it's anywhere near as complicated as that. I see idolatry as being sinful, regardless of original sin or not.
If it replaces a need/want/desire for communion with the creator, it's idolatry; and because of this sin.
Making graven images/statues is just a very specific form of this idolatry. But it's not idolatry if you're not literally praying to the statue. If it's only an earthly representation of the divine, then that's perfectly okay.
I don't think icons or crucifixes are idolatry.

are those really the only two options?

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take this shit to /x/ you dumb faggot or at least /his/ stop posting here.

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Does it ever claim he's not also man? If they saw him walking around and doing miracles, what else could he have been? If he had a physical birth from a human mother, what else could he have been if not a man?
Jesus makes it perfectly clear he is divine, but nowhere in the bible does it ever imply he's no also human.

>I don't think it's anywhere near as complicated as that. I see idolatry as being sinful, regardless of original sin or not.
That is the problem m8, how can you tell if a person is worshiping or not when praying to a Mary statue for example? No one can read the person's mind, he might be thinking that praying using a Mary statue is a direct connection to God and not really thinking that something else is God. Hence this whole dilemma that led towards questioning if the human cognition towards representation is able or not to get in touch with the Divine, and that is the fundamental difference between protestants and catholics and it bases all the idolatry argument as well the church doctrine and all other things. I mean Karl Barth wanted to pinpoint the reason for not being catholic and his reason was that I already described, and he became famous due to it. That is also the reason why Catholic priests have to study philosophy of representation and while protestant priests don't

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>Protestant: Rationality is a sin
Retitle your thread to "arguing with straw men".

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>Uhm, show me where in the Bible where it claims that Jesus was also a man
Did Jesus fake suffer? You're clearly in over your head on this my blasphemous proddie hombre. The gospel of John was written to dispel the fact that Christ couldn't suffer because he was God. He was God in the Flesh. Why did he give into them, those that claim He didn't suffer, if he wasn't arguing with the Church in his late age? John was clearly making a point, that God could become human as God designed it. Do you also deny that God walked in the Garden or ate with Abraham in the flesh?

Not to mention the Pentecost or the Holy Spirit's actions throughout the ages.

>Did Jesus fake suffer?
>Does it ever claim he's not also man? If they saw him walking around and doing miracles, what else could he have been? If he had a physical birth from a human mother, what else could he have been if not a man?
That is the point m8, I've seen two pastors saying he is only Divine and a physical representation of the Divine that came through Mary. The question here is about the substantiation, as God is transcendental and you can't simply assume just because He was born from a womb or that He suffers that He is human, and the Bible doesn't clearly says that. As does so many things
>He was God in the Flesh.
Yes, but was He also a human? Therefore not only some transcendental phenomenon but also a materialistic phenomenon that we can grasp, hence capable of reason?

>how can you tell if a person is worshiping or not when praying to a Mary statue for example?
Is that not specific to the individual? Yes, I've seen examples of "Catholics" literally praying to and worshiping images of Mary and the saints(no they don't all do this, but some that profess to be Catholics do). It's probably in regards to the level of cognition the individual possesses, but I think the most important factor is the next point I have here.
>human cognition
Is it not the holy spirit that gives us this understanding?

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John 11:33-38 33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked. "Come and see, LORD," they replied. 35Jesus wept. 36Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!" 37But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?" 38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance.

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Luke 22:44 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

i went to mass for the first time in 6 months today, I feel so guilty for relapsing for so long. Felt so good to be back.

Will start RCIA and by the end of 2019 I'll be baptised and confirmed, god willing.

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Yet, He had no burdens laid upon Himself is your next step of argument.

>you can't simply assume just because He was born from a womb or that He suffers that He is human
So, you're saying you've seen pastors that claim that because of his divinity, Jesus was merely flesh and not fully human. That he lacked a sort of "Humanness" or essence that makes one human.
But that's retarded, because it is the characteristics of the flesh that give us this "Humanness."
By taking on the flesh, Jesus also adopted that essence of a human male.

I wonder (((who))) started spreading that trope? Teachers abuse 100x the rate of Catholic priests. Should we ban them too?

>Is it not the holy spirit that gives us this understanding?
Nope, it isn't. It animates the souls when God wants. Reason is part of the creation, I honestly thought before that the cognition is the Holy Spirit, but I was wrong after reading again the catechism, as I took the word "animates" as "it is" and after seeing the whole Analogia entis vs Analogia Fidei I realized that it is wrong
Again, the same point m8, you can't assume He is human just because He did humanly things like dying, also because somebody else said He was a man. If the Bible said God said: "He is my son, a human" when John Baptist baptized him. Yes, that would be right. The Catholic Church had a huge debate of it in the Council of Ephesus
>But that's retarded, because it is the characteristics of the flesh that give us this "Humanness."
To us humans, yes, but by God, especially explaining a supernatural phenomenon like Jesus you can't assume He is human just because He looks human m8. That is philosophy 101, literally Aristotelian Philosophy.

You sound like a fucking drug addict

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IDK what 'Church" you're in, but leave it immediately. Here's the Nicene Creed, which even east and west and proddies agree on, despite linguistic bullshit. God was a man for a time for your benefit, so that you know he created everything in particular to us, His creation. Again.....Genesis 3:8
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

based

>but by God, especially explaining a supernatural phenomenon like Jesus you can't assume He is human
Why not? what about God makes it impossible for him to possess an earthly human essence?
This relies on the fact that to be human, you need to possess a human soul. But God gave us a soul that was, in many ways, patterned after his own.(other than the properties that make him God) "Created in the image of God."
Who could better understand the nature and feelings of humans better than God himself in the flesh.
Is this not the necessity of the incarnation?

I think he agrees with you m8. He just says it isn't implied in the bible.

will pray 4u

Blessed and whitepilled

>I think he agrees with you m8. He just says it isn't implied in the bible.
No.

>Why not? what about God makes it impossible for him to possess an earthly human essence?
It's not that m8, it's the fact that since God creates everything and is capable of even giving birth to a Virgin maiden, he can create a Son that looks like a man, act like a man and behaves like one, but isn't essentially one. The Bible isn't clear about that and that is the whole point. Appearance and Essence are two different things, and since the Bible is a scribe of God's Word which is the Truth, we can't be sure about that simply from the Bible, hence why the Catholic Church in the Council of Ephesus decided that He is also essentially a human

Literally no Protestant believes Rationality is a sin huemonkey.

"For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:19-20)

Newsflash, Jesus is the Incarnate Logos and what Paul just described is the Teleological argument. Some of the most famous Protestants like William Lane Craig utilize similar arguments when they debate.

What does this even have to do with praying to Mary, or "adoring" Mary. Go adore God.

look at what Jesus said to the first mary worshipper:

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Luke 11

how can you tell if a person is worshiping or not when praying to a Mary statue for example? No one but God can read the person's mind

>"adoring" Mary.

*venerate Mary

Adoration is Latria which is reserved for God. And if you think veneration of someone holy is wrong, I must ask: do you respect the opinion of your doctor over that of someone who is uneducated? Because we do the same thing, but in the realm of piety.

It's difficult to characterize Protestants since it mainly just means "not Orthodox or Catholic." Barth is, for example, rejected by many Protestants because he didn't believe the Bible is necessarily inerrant.

>Incarnate Logos
Does that means He is human then?

>he can create a Son that looks like a man, act like a man and behaves like one, but isn't essentially one.
How could God take your Sins on if He wasn't a '"user" once. He felt it in full. You don't know even the depths of the blashemphey you're spewing, you vile thug. Go eat a dick, Satan.

The word we use in portuguese is venerar, which literally means venerate. "Os católicos veneram maria". Thats how we say "catholics worship mary"

He's referring to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.

The Pope is the antichrist and Catholicism is the OG globalism.

That´s wrong brother, the antichrist will be jewish

Because He showed God's truth towards mankind and saved it by offering himself in holocaust towards God and also because He assumed a physical representation of a man? Or like the other guy said, he was the Incarnate Logos, therefore, the physical representation of the Truth and not really a human. Well show me in the scripture some place where God explicit says he is also "normal" human along being a God
Ah yes, I thought it was theologian

I was talking to the American who mixes up venerate and adore.

>Thats how we say "catholics worship mary"

This is only true if we use the archaic sense of worship, i.e. respect (what we do with Mayors and magistrates for example). English now uses worship as synonymous with adoration.

Sure but every protestant I met defines idolatry as using your cognition, therefore an associating an image of a Saint/Mary to God, to reach the Divine

Jesus was a Jew and he came principally for the Jews. Romans 1:16

My issue isn't with "worshipping" Mary, I just see no reason to pray to her when you can pray to God. I see no reason she should be any more special than, say, Paul, or Peter.
"Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy." (Revelation 15:4 a)
Only God is worth focusing on. You can learn from the life of Mary, you can appreciate what she did, but her life is just as special as yours, mine, Peter's, Pauls, etc.
Yes. He is fully man, fully God. I have even heard him referred to by both Protestants and Catholics as "the God-Man" which I think is kind of funny.

Wow, I'd never even realized that. How does he do it?

>Only God is worth focusing on.
Gross oversimplification of life and action.

> You can learn from the life of Mary, you can appreciate what she did
This is what Catholics do.

> but her life is just as special as yours, mine, Peter's, Pauls, etc.
If you mean inherently valuable sure, but she is clearly more pious, and we give her due respect for that.

>Because
Lost me there. Also,,
>He assumed a physical representation of a man

Also
>not really a human.
God walked among Humans in plain sight in past tense, indeed this is the Holy Spirit's role until the End of Times.
You error severely in thinking that God couldn't limit Himself to our level. He counts the hair on the heads of goats, and birds flop out of the sky on His command. Why do you think He didn't, in essence, bring onto Himself our limitations, :you know, the ones he Himself designed?

Besides you're praying to it and to the saint that it depicts. Even if you don't have a painting you're still praying to the wrong person

>My issue isn't with "worshipping" Mary, I just see no reason to pray to her when you can pray to God. I see no reason she should be any more special than, say, Paul, or Peter.
That is also related to whether you believe in the full humanity of Christ or not, as his life is sacred, Mary the one that gave birth to Him is connected to Christ therefore you could use her image, therefore the cognition of her image to reach the divine, to reach Christ. The same with the Saints, the same with the Catholic Church, the Eucharist and the Sacraments, everything is connected to how Human Christ is
>Yes. He is fully man, fully God. I have even heard him referred to by both Protestants and Catholics as "the God-Man" which I think is kind of funny.
Where in the Bible does it says he is essentially a man, capable of reason and not really just the Incarnate Logos? A physical representation of the Truth
>God walked among Humans in plain sight in past tense, indeed this is the Holy Spirit's role until the End of Times.
Walk among humans, means He is human? Do you understand the logical leap you are doing?

>I just see no reason to pray to her when you can pray to God.

Some Catholics fear God so much they first seek refuge in a more motherly figure of Mary if they have sinned, before working up the courage to face God and their sin. That's why.

Why is the big discussion always between Catholics and Protestants when Baptists are always "ignored" even though they are one of the biggest denominations, especially in America?

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Verses proving salvation to anyone that believes and not of works.
youtu.be/BXMA4xOS5BY

John
1:12
3:15-16/18/36
4:14(John 6:35)
5:24
6:28-29/35/38-40/44-45/47
7:38-39
8:24
10:27-29
11:25-27/40
12:46
14:1-3
16:27
20:31

Matthew
5:19
7:21-23(John 6:38-40)
8:10-13
9:2
12:37
21:31-32

Mark
1:15
2:5
10:24-25
16:16

Luke
3:3(Acts 19:4)
5:20
7:48-50
8:12
18:10-14/42
19:42
23:40-43

Acts
2:21
3:19
10:43
11:16-17
13:38-39/48
15:7-9
16:30-31
19:4(Luke 3:3)
26:18

Romans
1:16-17
3:20/22/24-28/30
4:2-14/16/24
5:1/15-18
6:14/23
8:31-33
9:30-33
10:3-4/9-10/13
11:6

1 Corinthians
1:14/17/21
3:14-15
15:1-2

>You error severely in thinking that God couldn't limit Himself to our level.
The point is, the Bible isn't clear about that, God can do anything, including making Him a physical representation of a man while not being essentially a Human being

2 Corinthians
4:13-14

1 Thessalonians
4:14

2 Thessalonians
1:10
2:12

Ephesians
1:13-14
2:8-9
4:7

Galatians
2:16/21
3:6-11/14/21-22/24/26
5:3-6

Philippians
3:3/9

Titus
3:5

1 Timothy
1:16

2 Timothy
1:9
3:15

Hebrews
4:3
10:38-39
11:7

1 Peter
1:3-5/8-9
2:6-7
3:21(Colossians 2:12)

1 John
4:2-3/15
5:1/4-5/10-11/13

Revelation
2:11
3:5
21:7

Baptists are essentially protestants to catholics

The definition of idolatry I've always been taught is placing some worldly thing ahead of God. I suppose in a sense it requires cognition (you can't think something is ahead of God if you don't think at all) but it is not equivalent to cognition.

>God can do anything
nope
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
>cannot lie

You do not need to be baptized to be saved. There's only 3 verses I've seen people use to try to say you need to be baptized, I'll debunk all three.

Mark 16:15
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This verse does not say what happens to a person that belivees and is not baptized, only someone that believes and is baptized and someone that does not believe. Let's say Person A believes and is baptized, Person B believes and is not baptized, and Person C does not believe. According to this verse A goes to Heaven and C goes to Hell, but says nothing about B. According to John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Person A and B go to Heaven and C goes to Hell.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
They will say being "born of water" is being baptized. No, being born of water is being physically born, and they will usually leave out verse 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." which Jesus compares being born of water with being born of the flesh, and being born of the spirit with being born of the spirit.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
They will take the part where it says "baptism doth also now save us" and say that proves it, but no, it's "The like figure" that saves us, not baptism. And the like figure is the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ. Colossians 2:12 12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Even though we aren't prots we still hold more doctrine with them than another denom

Also are there any decent IFB churches even in Sweden?

The works and sacraments are associated with the life and humanity of Christ and the Church's creation and the apostolic succession is also related to the humanity of Christ, including the assembly of the Bible you use to guide yourself
Yes, he cannot lie because he is the Truth himself. I meant in the context He can do anything regarding creation
>I suppose in a sense it requires cognition (you can't think something is ahead of God if you don't think at all) but it is not equivalent to cognition.
Cognition by definition is the association of concepts regarding reality m8

>Walk among humans, means He is human? Do you understand the logical leap you are doing?
I'd call on Jesus here, but I'd advise you to take this subject vehemently up with the total of Christianity, because you're wrong. Pay that pastor more monry, play the ground on this topic if you will. Jesus was fully man, fully God.

Genesis 18

No, we have some cucked baptist churches but pentecostalism and charismatic movement completely dominates the free churches here. But I know about many IFB Christians here who might start up a church.

>this is what Catholics do
It really isn't. None of my Catholic friends place nearly the same emphasis on Peter, who they believe was the first Pope. They hold Mary in extremely high esteem, higher than Peter, higher than Paul, so high that she's deemed as someone you should pray to. Why is there a Hail Mary instead of a Hail Paul? Ostensibly because she's the Mother of God, but there's really no reason that makes her more pious or anything than the apostles.
Her giving birth to Jesus, who was fully human, does not make her more special than Paul, Peter, or John.
I have heard this line of reasoning, and I suppose its understandable. But at some point you should feel comfortable enough to pray directly to God, and then you would leave Mary behind.

>Her giving birth to Jesus, who was fully human, does not make her more special than Paul, Peter, or John.
m8, you can choose anyone you like to adore and reach God m8, Mary holds a special status as she is the mother of Jesus and of Salvation of Mankind and that is it m8

Jesus when born from from Mary until His death on the cross was GOD in human form. He had to be in human to able to die other GOD would not have been able to die to fulfil the contract of Sin placed on man. In that form He was both man and GOD, after being resurrected and ascending to Heaven though He was given a new body.

That is blasphemy.