From Sir John Maynard Keynes own mouth... in his book the Economic Consequences of Peace.... under his system....
"If the govt refrains from regulation (taxation) the worthlessness of the money becomes apparent, and the fraud upon the public can no longer be concealed." - Keynes
Gold is just a commodity traded in the market with no inherent value. Labor backed currencies are the best.
Where can I find this meme?
I made it...
Gold is not a commodity. Gold is real money.
"In the absence of a gold standard there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation - there is no safe store of value" - Alan Greenspan (1966)
"Gold is money everything else is credit." - JP Morgan (testimony to congress 1912)
We need to end the Federal Reserve and return to the gold standard. Fiat money is worth whatever the gov't says it's worth, which can be anything because the Fed endlessly prints money. Without the Fed the gov't would have a limit on how much they could spend, which would make them fiscally more responsible. And the Constitution never said the gov't can make a central bank.
Fpbp
Those are cool quotes from big names, but history implies otherwise.
the only meaningful metal is a bullet to put into a gun...anything else is jew tricks (gold is now on paper hahahaha that was a gold one)
Fuck the jews
The dollar value of gold means nothing. If you are valuing gold in terms of dollars you are valuing gold the WRONG WAY.
I mean gold gave value to the dollar for Christ sakes. So how can you value gold in terms of dollars?
Gold is stored economic energy. Gold gets its value from energy used to get it in the PAST
Hahaha yeah......
You have inside knowledge that hyperinflation is coming in 3 weeks. So your strategy is to put your entire net worth of say 500k into ammo and canned food? Stupid to put any wealth in gold?
Bump
Except that those are constant 1998 dollars which reveal the shift in the absolute value of gold. The major crash in value between 1500 and 1650 was the result of the discovery of the Americas. Which shows that the increased supply of gold adversely effected its value. If gold was in fact stored economic energy that shouldn't have happened. Yet it did.
You ask how can you value gold in dollars. Well the same way everyone else does, in the market. Gold goes up and down based on supply and demand, manipulation, and unpredictable externalities.
I can't buy anything with gold. I can't pay my bills with it. I can only make gold into money if I sell it. If I choose not to sell it I can only hope it will be accepted as barter.
Gold is an asset that pays no dividend and costs money to store. It's not the worst investment, but by no means the best.
Nothing has intrinsic value.
Every value depends on society, gold is not an exception.
Why is gold so highly valued? There are rarer and more useful elements out there, why gold?
Also, why you'd think I'd care about the lead singer of Tool and his opinions on economics is beyond me.
>why gold?
It's not /that/ rare, just rare enough.
It's basically eternal.
It's pretty.
Rarity is just one aspect that money has to be. There are several other properties money has to be which gold fits perfectly for
Why did the gold price crash during the great depression?
You problem is you have been brainwashed to think the dollar is king.
You value gold using ratios to other real assets. Of which it is very undervalued and silver is the most undervalued asset in planet earth.
For most of human history a silver piece the size of a silver dime was a days wage.
So if you go to a coin shop and buy 1 oz of silver for 16$ you are literally owning 2 weeks worth of days wages when this fiat crisis hits, and a new paradigm is ushered in. Since 14 silver dimes equals 1 ounce of silver
So if you go buy a measly 500 ounces of silver that's literally 20 years or 7,500 days of wages.
Americans working stupid useless jobs like insurance agents are making 200$ a day which is equal to like 13 ounces of silver in pay per day if they convert the fiat to silver.
That flies in the face of all sane economic historical history
Also gold is not an investment gold is MONEY. It's not supposed to pay a dividen brainlet.
When I buy Amazon stock I'm doing that for a completely different reason than why I'm buying gold at a coin shop.
What good is the fiat I make in stocks if I don't convert it into gold before a currency crisis and hyperinflation?
Get it now?
And like my post above shows you wont even need that much. Maybe 10 ounces of gold and 300 ounces of silver and you'll have generational wealth. Because there will be a deflationary collapse of all asset prices
Doesn't money need to be an effective medium of exchange?
Yeah he's retarded.
Fellow libertarian, I have given up on redpilling 16 year olds on Jow Forums about the nature of fiat currencies reverting to intrinsic value.
All the shills and trolls will find out the truth soon enough.
the great depression was a deflationary period. it's what prompted people to take keynes' and the 'new deal' seriously
What's the intrinsic value of gold?
I don't disagree, but I'd also have guns and food stored up if it disintegrates into a SHTF scenario.
I only see precious metals after we transition to a new paradigm, not during the dark times when people will be focused on subsistence and avoiding snipers.
500oz for 20 years of stored labour ain't bad
more than IOUs printed by govt or bitcoin
No, it's exactly the same.
Are downturns usually deflationary? I thought gold was supposed to be a good hedge against an economic crash.
If you back up every dollar with gold the price of gold increases a million times.
How are you going to solve that problem?
Sure, I'm just saying that it's not currently an effective medium of exchange for everyday life.
Fundamentally, you got to figure that central banks know more than you if they're stockpiling it right now. I can agree with you that gold isn't edible, but it lasts forever, can be denominated into different weights, it's pretty, and enough people agree that it's 'neutral' in that it is found world-wide, so it doesn't give any one country a huge advantage or disadvantage.
It is a medium of exchange par excellence.
I don't pretend to know more than the smart money and the banks. All I can say is that the smart money is not stacking cash and bitcoin right now.
Fundamentally, you got to figure that central banks know more than you if they're stockpiling it right now. I can agree with you that gold isn't edible, but it lasts forever, can be denominated into different weights, it's pretty, and enough people agree that it's 'neutral' in that it is found world-wide, so it doesn't give any one country a huge advantage or disadvantage.
It is a medium of exchange par excellence.
I don't pretend to know more than the smart money and the banks. All I can say is that the smart money is not stacking cash and bitcoin right now.
But that simply isn’t true.
We don’t need the gov to say money is worth something.
In reality, the people and the economy decide that.
Just like the price of gold (which is decided by who knows who), we have let the Federal Reserve determine the price.
There is no going back tho. Just enjoy the ride
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, FIRST BY INFLATION , THEN BY DEFLATION, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
What is the difference between deflation and gold standart?
I buy gold because fiat is a scam and I'm afraid it will implode. I don't care about the dollar price of gold.
Gold didn't all of a sudden become valuable when America was born and the dollar was created.
If the dollar dissapeared from planet earth tomorrow morning my gold is completely unaffected. That's the ENTIRE POINT that you buy gold
True. Good point, memeflag
I agree, but we do currently live in a fiat system. It seems to me that gold is only a good hedge in case there's a global currency crisis (correct me if I'm wrong here).
>Which shows that the increased supply of gold adversely effected its value.
China has 100x all the known gold traded in markets
coins?
No, they can be inflationary ('stagflation') where the real economy shrinks while prices increase
Judy Shelton wrote a small book about this and giving T-bills the option to deliver in gold, effectively creating a gold standard. Essentially, it would reprice the value of gold, yes.
You are hella dumb user
What does gold being edible or not have anything to do with anything?
Food is for eating
Gold is money and is for savings
They both have different uses? You use the gold or silver to buy food
What do you think is going to happen when the dollar collapses? Everything will magically become free?
Yes but the fiat money isn’t going anywhere. Isn’t that apparent?
They made this scheme to inflate money, make way more of it, control its “worth,” and keep compounding debt.
There’s no getting out of that debt — I’m sure we can agree upon that.
>and enough people agree that it's 'neutral' in that it is found world-wide
Yeah, that's the point though, its value is just agreed upon based on its rare qualities.
It's not intrinsic.
Interesting:
>The world's central banks are on a gold buying spree that has lasted more than a decade. That's the longest period of consistent gold acquisition by the so-called official sector in more than half a century.
But this time the motivations of the buyers are different than they were back in the 1950s, and they are worrying. That's why investors should take note, including anyone who owns the SPDR Gold Shares (GLD) exchange-traded fund, which holds bars of solid bullion.
In the distant past, central banks had to buy gold because of its vital role in the global financial system. Now they are choosing to do so because they are worried about the dollar. In other words, they've been scared into this bullion buying binge.
it is 'Inflation Insurance' or 'Currency Crisis' insurancem yes. I own guns for this reason too.
The problem with the gold standard is that more and more is on the market, so it's unstable. Demand also varies.
You need to use a finite resource that don't change in demand.
>You use the gold or silver to buy food
Only if someone agrees to sell you food for it.
Which is not different at all from someone agreeing to sell you food for paper, or magnetic bits, or oranges, or fucking bottle caps.
Silver, Gold, Platinum, Gems.
Those have always been valued pretty much all the time and are the standards of "luxury."
There's always going to be somebody who wants the goods.
>coins?
Yes but do grocery stores and gas stations accept them?
So if the fiat system is heading for collapse, do you think that's happening soon (within the next decade or so)?
semantics
if things get bad enough, you want subsistence goods and weapons first and foremost. to clarify, i possess precious metals for when things start to normalize, or when it is safe to start bartering again
yes. 2008 exposed some glaring holes in the financial system. couple this with global dedollarization as countries look for a USD alternative in a multipolar world. I would suggest checking out Jim Rickards if you want to learn more about financial warfare.
And if the dollar is worthless and a farmer wants to sell his food. You don't think the farmer is going to accept hard money? He's just going to let his crop go to hell?
The farmer isn't going to need to buy gas or toilet paper or hookers?
Now it'll probably just be a simple revaluAtion where one day we wake up and gold is 50k per ounce to purge all the debt from the system. And everyone becomes poorer like in Venezuela.
But I can assure you that Venezuelans who are starving in the streets would kill to go back in time and have even just 1 ounce of gold which is worth 300 million bolivars right now .
You can change gold for any currency including the new one that will come. And you'll make out like a bandit when gold is 50k per ounce and your formerly 500k home is now Worth 75k
Yes. It may take a few years or 15.... but it could also happen tomorrow morning. Best to have at least a few ounces of gold and few hundred ounce of silver and you'll be ahead of 99.8% of the normies
What is the ideal amount of gold and silver to stockpile? I recently bought 10 ounces of silver coins. Want to know /pol's opinion
I mean when fiat collapses why wouldn't someone sell you heir shit for hard money?
I mean... do you think it's only possible to buy and sell shit in paper fiat? Dollar implodes and the world just stops using a vehicle to trade in? Because muhhh paper is so precious?
The amount of gold that is mined in relation to the above ground existing stock is small enough that price is not radically affected on the supply side. Consider population growth on the demand side.
not yet
depends. they've kept it afloat this long. Could have a bunch of precipitating factors:
Deutsche Bank
Italy (now France and Brexit)
DJIA/ND/SP crash
Corporate Debt
Trade Wars
Housing Market Crash.
Frankly, there is a bunch of dominoes all set up in a circle, so you get the same result. The 2-5 inversion in the T-bill market does not portend well.
Central Banks will likely adopt same playbook and pray it works: buy distressed assets, pump liquidity into system, cut interest rates to zero or below zero.
Governments are going to spend like crazy but no one is going to buy the bonds, so it's going to be all seigniorage. The effect will be that currencies will lose a lot of their purchasing power. This will result in new political risks (boomers, welfare recipients, disabled/sick sperging out)
Scary stuff.
>The farmer isn't going to need to buy gas or toilet paper or hookers?
Can he buy those with gold?
That's the whole fucking point.
If you're saying gold is a good investment against hyperinflation then yes I agree, but at the end of the day you're exchanging that gold into currency to buy stuff with it.
Also the dollar will NEVER EVER experience hyperinflation if not after losing a world war somehow, which with nukes ain't happening.
>why wouldn't someone sell you their shit for hard money?
Why WOULD someone sell you their shit for hard money?
The answer is if he can later exchange that hard money for other stuff.
Not because gold is magical.
Like I said above... for most of human history a silver piece of the size of a silver dime was a days wage. And still is in much of the world today when you compare their earnings to the dollar price of silver. If someone is making the equivalent of 30$ a month in china.... that's equal to about 2 ounces of silver a month.
So.... hiatorically before fiat inflated everything.... those 10 ounces you have are the equivalent of 140 days wages. Since 14 silver dimes equals 1 ounce of silver.
Now if you go buy 500 ounces of silver which isn't that much.... about 8k or so worth in fiat... you now have roughly 7,500 days wages historically. Or 20 years. But it'll actually be probably 2x-3x that when the pendulum swings back. Because there are now billions more people on the planet and much less silver available.
Your average insurance agent non producing American is making 150$ a day which in terms of silver is 10 ounces of silver per day if they converted their daily earnings into fiat. That flies in the face of all economic historical sanity. And to be honest it's why the rest of the world hates us and why we have a military all over the world forcing trade in dollars for oil
Actually, a day of work of who?
I really doubt a farmer's day of work was valued like a day of a doctor or an elite mercenary, for example.
look I understand that we aren't going back to buying shit with gold and silver coins. But when the dollar hyperinflates how the fuck are you going to store your value?
People in Venezuela who were formerly relatively well to do are eating their fuckingg pets. You don't think they wished they had even just 4-5 ounces of gold? And then exchange for dollars
Youd be sitting pretty in Venezuela if you had just a measly 10 ounces of gold which would equal 3 trillion bolivars
The currency had to go someone. That's why Austrians argue that the money creation is the inflation, not the price level.
See graph attached. All of that money has gone into various asset classes (stocks, real estate, bonds). When those bubbles pop (or the world dedollarizes), then all of those dollars are going to flood the market and start competing for bread, chocolate, guns, milk and rice.
>>someone
somewhere
Explain labor backed currencies to me please? Or is it just a meme.
>Jim Rickards
Thanks, will take a look.
If the fiat currency system collapses, what will take over? I'm a bit concerned that central banks are working on their own cryptocurrencies and pushing for cashless societies in various places.
Well that's just a barometer for a peasants wage. It doesn't really matter if your talking about a peasants wage or a doctors wage. The fact of the matter is if you have 500 ounces of silver before a currency crisis that 500 ounces historically is equal to 20 years wages for a regular working person historically. Which is a LOT.
Imagine going back in time to 1455 in London where a silver piece the size of a dime is a days wage. And you have 7,500 of them. Your going to be pretty well off doesn't matter what your profession is
Well I told you already I agree gold is a save investment against inflation.
Good stores value well. That does not make it money.
This is what the NSDAP did and built the autobahn.
It might be wild-west for awhile. Venezuela is trying to launch a crypto but as it turns out, once people go through a fiat collapse, they're pretty hesitant to trust their well-being to government currency.
Imho, if I was a government that wanted to avoid Somali-tier anarchy, the best option would be to reintroduce and mint junk silver to build trust in a new monetary regime. This is what the founding fathers did in the USA and for the same reason.
> Labor backed currencies
And what happens when the price of labor collapses due to automation?
Bubble popped before, there wasn't any hyperinflation.
Now, if they all pop at the same time we are in for a big bang but no one can really predict what the fuck will happen.
Gold is probably a good idea but not really a given.
We'll see, probably soon enough, an hopefully stay alive to tell the tale.
Do you you stack by any chance?
Why is gold money?
Your argument right now is essentially
>gold is money because it is
Please refrain from quoting opinions.
So if you buy some silver and gold as a hedge for all this, what should you be looking at getting? Is junk silver better than collectibles?
tl;dr currency issued by a government to directly pay workers skipping debt and private banks
>build me a road I'll pay you with a paper I printed
Arguably similar to what we have today, but avoids some issues such as debt deflation.
So what's your issue? Gold is savings federal reserve notes are debt
That's what money is... money has to be a store of value and the dollar is not a store of value. The dollar used to be a store of value when it was backed by gold but that's no longer the case
Yes. I mean I don't go crazy because I realize that you won't need much. Some of these goldbugs think you need 1,000,000$ worth of gold to cover 1,000,000$ worth of fiat in the bank. Which is nonsense.
Ever heard the story of the lowly hotel bellcap that had 25 ounces of gold saved up before Weimar hyperinflation? Well after hyperinflation he was able to buy an entire city block with that measly 25 ounces of gold
avoid numismatics unless you're prepared to do your homework.
you will pay a larger premium, but small denominations of silver (junk or .9999 coins) is probably the way to go for barter, but can also be used to purchase currency when/if the new regime reemerges
i agree, but we have seen money supply grow leaps and bounds the last decade. there has never been so much pent up monetary energy in this many assets bubbles. when all that energy is released, that's when price levels will moonjump
Also, it's easily manipulated by those who own the gold.
If Russia, China, and most emerging markets weren't so obviously moving towards a gold-standard, I'd tend to agree with this leaf.
The fact is, however, that gold appears to be the direction that the world moving in for major international settlements.
Because gold is inherently money. And has all the properties and characteristics that money has to be.
Bingo
Nice. I just started this summer. Hoping to hit 100 oz next year. Mostly Silver eagles for liquidity
That still isn't an argument.
>it is that way because of the way it is
Doubt it's a gold standard, likely just a hedge against USD.
Unless China can run permanent surpluses like the US did from the 40s util the 70s a gold standard would just collapse like Bretton Woods did.
Keynes was right about his clearing union.
How about we all go live on a beach and deem that sand is money. Wouldn't work to well right?
I mean yes in theory you can make anything money. But obviously gold works better than sand.
Gold is stored economic energy. There was energy required to get it. Gold gets its value from energy required to produce it in the PAST.
Bonds, stocks, crypto, housing all get their value from energy produced in the future. And if you have energy problems there's a problem with those values
Gold is very chemically stable for a solid at room temperature and does not rot, rust, etc. Additionally it is not a very common metal so it has a lot of value as a trade good and there is not much more that is being pumped into the market. These properties make it a very good material to base a hard currency on.
China, Russia, Turkey, Iran and several others are looking at ways to settle payments outside the dollar system. They are tired of American financial warfare (swift bans/sanctions). As we speak, China and Russia are looking at a gold-backed crypto on a separate internet with a clearing house in Switzerland.
Essentially countries would use the crypto for international purchases, and any physical settlements could take place in Zurich.
To clarify: all the countries would use their own currency domestically. Gold will only be a means for international trade (oil, agriculture, commondities, metals, etc)
>several others are looking at ways to settle payments outside the dollar system
Don't forget the EU.
Though it definitely won't got anywhere.
Makes since, labor backed currency for domestic and gold for international is definitely the way forward.
>>forgot EU
yeah, my bad
rather pessimistic take you got tho. seems like gold is the only thing everyone can agree on.
Kissinger did good by negotiating petrodollar with the Saudis, but they fucked it up with constant warfare over the last 50 years
€uro (currency, not the EU itself) is a living corpse.
Wait.. what's going to happen to Canada if the fiat system comes down, considering we've sold off the last of our gold reserves recently?
>I mean yes in theory you can make anything money. But obviously gold works better than sand.
Of course.
>crypto, housing
No.
Housing is not a stake on any future income unlike stocks or bonds. Crypto is harder to define, but same logic applies.
>There was energy required to get it.
I could also claim that crypto value is also based on that, yet it's highly volatile and very few use it as money.
In the end money is based on what people are willing to accept as payment, which is highly dependent on things such as what you need to pay your taxes in and what the government dictates.
If it's going to be crypto there's no need for it to be gold backed.
The primary advantage of gold as a settling mechanism is that in the long run trade deficits and surpluses balance out (or should).
The Euro is inherently unstable and has been since its inception, you have a common currency with no way to balance out trade imbalances.
Depends on what will happen with current debts, but I would be more worried about the economic impact of the US losing supremacy rather than gold reserves.