How do I know if I'm a nice guy? Where is the line between genuine courtesy and cringy clinginess?

This.

That's genius. Not OP but I'm gonna take that one, thanks

You are a nice guy if you act nice so people like you. Never be someone else to be liked. It won't get you far.
>Never being confrontational, always agreeing.
>Never disagreeing.
>Following everywhere
>never telling anyone that they are wrong >Not having a strong opinion on anything
>letting others decide every single time
>Being a doormat, taxi, wallet for others
>"That's up to you. Whatever you like :)

If you see yourself in any of this then dial it down.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be friendly of course. Don't swing the pendulum all the way the other side. Just have some self awareness and don't be an empty shell.

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Goddamn that final text is amazing

This one is my personal favourite
*TIPS FEDORA*

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Honestly she deserves that text. What a bitch.

>"Nice" guys do shit to get stuff in return, and build up how nice they are as if its special.

So you do nice stuff for others and expect nothing in return?

Did you hand over your toys and video games as a kid to people you thought were your friends only to find they tossed you aside when they got what they wanted?

And did you, instead of realizing that is bullshit, decide that you are ultimately a nice person because you chose to give without expecting a return?

www.joshuazuchter.com/what-is-in-a-friendship-giving-or-receiving/

All relationships are built on RECIPROCITY.

If you have someone come up to you to talk with you, and you don't want to talk to them, you blow them off. They get the hint and walk away and you don't become friends.

If you WANT to become friends with them, but you're autistic and act like they don't matter or you're uninterested, then they walk away and you lose the potential friend you wanted.

BECAUSE you VIOLATED the law of reciprocity.

People who open conversation are giving you something, you're supposed to give back if you want that conversation. If you don't give back you range from being a cold individual to an asshole depending on how you shut them down.

If you think that giving is its own reward I hope you'll be friends with me and buy me beers while I insult you and belittle you in front of others... because you shouldn't want to receive any good treatment from me in return for your behavior. That'd be entitlement.

I love female autists and their dumbass explanation of relationships. Really, I do.

oh btw, you know why women are cheating in marriages left and right these days? Because they feel a lack of reciprocity and a lack of being given emotional or physical 'needs'.

Teaching males to be withholding out of fear of being 'nice guy' is only going to bite your feminist labiabeard asses after 30.

That's the kind of guy they keep around to buy them shit while they fuck chad on the side. Just be an asshole, bud. It's a hard blackpill to swallow, but being snarky, rude and cocky is the key to her heart. I was a lonely virgin until I started acting like a dick. Girls will act like they're offended and upset when you're mean to them but inside they're getting horny.

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>Where is the line between genuine courtesy and cringy clinginess?

The line is "expecting something in return". It couldn't be any more obvious. Like said.

>t. nice guy who gets mad when girls don't suck his dick when he holds doors open for them and then think that the other extreme will get his dick wet instead

jesus dude I smell Jow Forums and virginity all over you

Autism.

Whatever helps you cope. My ex called me an asshole but she always texted back.

Not that user. But you’re intentionally overstating and exaggerating to match your own point.

The “reciprocity” in a nice action is the internal feedback one gets when one does an action.

The reason people donate to charity anonymously isn’t because they have so much money they just want to dump it.

It is t because they secretly want someone to find out.

It isn’t because they’ll secretly get some god karma that

They do it because their own interns value system makes it so that when they do it, they get a buzz of positive feedback that lets them know that “Hey. I did something positive that falls within my ideal of who or what to think I should strive to be, and that makes me a good person”.

It in a way, validates their own ideology and serves as positive reinforcement.

The same is true if I help an old lady across the street.

I am both helping her because:
A.) Some part of me fees empathetic towards her
B.) Some part of me knows that that’s what the ideal person I strive to be would do, and I want to act in line with that so I can feel good about myself. And that positive feedback is so ingrained in my ethos that it almost becomes an unthinking response.

The same is true when I deal with friends. If they ask me for a favor and it’s aligned with that internal model/goals/ideological vision of wo I want to be, then I’ll willingly help, and often without thinking.

However, if it doesn’t, then I won’t. Because me striving to be the version of myself that I like, doesn’t mean I have to bend over backwards and sacrifice myself for others. In fact those two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

And I’m still not sure what a good response to his question would have been. But later that night I was browsing the Internet and I was reminded of what the worse response humanly possible. It would go something like:

You keep whining about how “unfair” it is that you can’t get a good job. “But I’m such a hard worker.” No, actual hard workers don’t feel like they’re entitled to other people’s money just because they ask nicely.

Second, I had yet another patient who –

(I feel obligated to say at this point that the specific details of these patient stories are made up, and several of them are composites of multiple different people, in order to protect confidentiality. I’m preserving the general gist, nothing more)

– I had a patient, let’s call him ‘Henry’ for reasons that are to become clear, who came to hospital after being picked up for police for beating up his fifth wife.

So I asked the obvious question: “What happened to your first four wives?”

“Oh,” said the patient, “Domestic violence issues. Two of them left me. One of them I got put in jail, and she’d moved on once I got out. One I just grew tired of.”

“You’ve beaten up all five of your wives?” I asked in disbelief.

“Yeah,” he said, without sounding very apologetic.

“And why, exactly, were you beating your wife this time?” I asked.

“She was yelling at me, because I was cheating on her with one of my exes.”

“With your ex-wife? One of the ones you beat up?”

“Yeah.”

“So you beat up your wife, she left you, you married someone else, and then she came back and had an affair on the side with you?” I asked him.

“Yeah,” said Henry.

I wish, I wish I wish, that Henry was an isolated case. But he’s interesting more for his anomalously high number of victims than for the particular pattern.

Last time I talked about these experiences, one of my commenters linked me to what was later described as the only Theodore Dalrymple piece anyone ever links to. Most of the commenters saw a conservative guy trying to push an ideological point, and I guess that’s part of it. But for me it looked more like the story of a psychiatrist from an upper-middle-class background suddenly realizing how dysfunctional and screwed-up a lot of his patients are and having his mind recoil in horror from the fact – which is something I can sympathize with. Henry was the worst of a bad bunch, but nowhere near unique.

When I was younger – and I mean from teeanger hood all the way until about three years ago – I was a ‘nice guy’. And I said the same thing as every other nice guy, which is “I am a nice guy, how come girls don’t like me?”

There seems to be some confusion about this, so let me explain what it means, to everyone, for all time.

It does not mean “I am nice in some important cosmic sense, therefore I am entitled to sex with whomever I want.”

It means: “I am a nicer guy than Henry.”

Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble attracting partners. He’s been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into. Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it.

congrats on your ex dude, I lost count of how many girls I dated and hooked up with and I was never a nice guy or the polar autistic opposite of le wannabe chadsshole, I was always just me.

I tend to go along with whatever other people say/do because it minimizes the amount of social interaction I have to do. Does that count?

You should try being an asshole though, it's pretty fun.

what is this .com trash website that you're linking to like it means anything and why are you posting a whole blogpost off it

That's what I do online, in real life that shit catches up to you.

You are the definition of autism.
You are the definition of edginess.

>The same is true if I help an old lady across the street.
>I am both helping her because:
>A.) Some part of me fees empathetic towards her
>B.) Some part of me knows that that’s what the ideal person I strive to be would do, and I want to act in line with that so I can feel good about myself. And that positive feedback is so ingrained in my ethos that it almost becomes an unthinking response.
>The same is true when I deal with friends. If they ask me for a favor and it’s aligned with that internal model/goals/ideological vision of wo I want to be, then I’ll willingly help, and often without thinking.

so in other words, you're doing these things for selfish motivations.

Do they know you're secretly pleasuring your moral center through helping them? If you haven't told them you're using them for your own benefit like this, then you're not a real nice person, you're just a manipulative asshole 'nice guy'.

See how this feminist argument works?

Anyway, NOTHING you said invalidated how interpersonal relationships work. You went on a red herring about charity donations. Look at Rockafeller and all the other old fucks who were abusive and exploitative to so many people early in life. They didn't want to be remembered as shitbags so they became philanthropists and built all kinds of shit later on for others.

What you're doing is a false dilemma, because you're asserting that there is a choice of correct interpretations. IT must be one or the other instead of being capable of being both.

Let me ask you one thing: Do you deny that you're obtaining benefits, material, emotional, or otherwise, from having friendships with other people? Do you deny that you care about having those relationships because of the good they do for you?

tl;dr

>dont say you deserve better because you treat women well, that's entitlement! Now Im going home to my wifebeater husband!

How? If she tries anything her nudes are going on the internet.
How is it edgy if they let it happen and keep coming back for more?

if it works for you, fair enough, but being genuinely snarky and rude aint gonna fly for anything significant i find. done in a bantering kind of way, though? for sure. i take the piss out of my girls on a regular basis, but never in a way that could be construed as being a bonafide asshole.

>GIRLS LIKE NICE GUYS WHO HOLD DOORS OPEN AND WRITE POEMS AND DO THEIR HOMEWORK AND WATCH THEM WHILE THEY SLEEP THROUGH BINOCULARS UP IN A TREE FROM ACCROSS THE STREET THAT'LL GET ME A DATE SOON ENOUGH

>GIRLS ONLY LIKE COOL ASSHOLES WHO SPITS ON THEIR FACE AND MAKES THEM CLEAN THE TOILET WITH THEIR TONGUE I THINK I READ THAT ON A BLOG ONCE

lol why is it always these two retarded extremes, you know that there's a whole spectrum of human existence that doesn't swing between sociopath and another kind of sociopath,

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>if she tries anything her nudes are going on the internet

pretty sure you can be charged for that these days. at least in bongistan, dunno about US

because most of the people giving out that advice are incels/virgins.

>How? If she tries anything her nudes are going on the internet.

oh no, it's not like that kind of shit happens a million times a day lmao

If you are a nice guy you'll help people in a selfless way, only having the one dimensional goal of being kind because it brings joy and/or makes you feel good. You rarely feel regret over your kindness or feel like you are being exploited because you do it because YOU want to do it for someone because you think it's the right thing.
If you are a "nice guy" you do nice things because you want something in return like kindness, acceptance, return of the davor. Niceguys do things because they think it will get them somewhere and they often feel miserable or exploited while doing it.

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Because women want men who will conquer other men, not men who will serve women. Because the natural order is women serve men. Thus a woman who behaves nicely to women is acting in the position of a woman, and as such is emascualting himself in her eyes. And she doesn't want to fuck a bitch. She wants to fuck a m-a-n.

This is a stupid false dilemma. People who are nice can also be naive and get exploited by people who see vulnerability.

you're saying "if you feel exploited, you might be a fake nice person trying to be liked".

>so in other words, you're doing these things for selfish motivations

Self-centered would be more accurate.

My motivations for dealing with other people revolve around me and the way it makes myself feel.

That is called being internally motivated and self-validating rather than having to rely on external factors and seek out/manipulate others opinions of me.

>See how this feminist argument works?
Speaking of red herrings...

>Anyway, NOTHING you said invalidated how interpersonal relationships work.

who said I was ever trying to explain how interpersonal relationships work? Why are you bringing up philanthropy when I’m talking about random acts of kindness and anonymous charity? Why are you bringing up false dilemmas when I never mentioned it needing to be one way or the other?

Hey the fuck outta here with that transparent troll behavior

All I was doing was explaining the “reciprocity” or positive feedback when committing a nice action. The return or positive feedback isn’t draw out from the individual recieving the nicety, it’s derived internally by the individual granting it.

But go ahead and keep spouting your agenda driven dumbasserry.

>That is called being internally motivated and self-validating rather than having to rely on external factors and seek out/manipulate others opinions of me.

If others' opinions of what makes a person good didn't matter, you wouldn't do those things.

Q.E.D.

>who said I was ever trying to explain how interpersonal relationships work? Why are you bringing up philanthropy when I’m talking about random acts of kindness and anonymous charity? Why are you bringing up false dilemmas when I never mentioned it needing to be one way or the other?

Because you put forward those arguments to invalidate the idea that people give to get.

>All I was doing was explaining the “reciprocity” or positive feedback when committing a nice action. The return or positive feedback isn’t draw out from the individual recieving the nicety, it’s derived internally by the individual granting it.

see you proved my point right here. You want to say that ALL reasons for being good rest only here. But that only matters in charity work. Not in friendships or Significant Other relations. Reciprocity is important in those things. Seriously.

I hope you learn this lesson and get some friends irl.

You misunderstood.
With that I mean that honest nice people won't feel exploided when niceguys do.
Such as paying for a ball of icecream and not expecting the other one to pay next time or anything in return.

naturalistic fallacy

also

>using "thus"

No user. That’s *still not what I’m saying and I’m kind of starting to pity you.

In bookkeeping terms it sounds like you’re running on a very superficial cash basis, whereas the rest of us naturally run on a more complex accrual one.

Yeah, running purely on cash does work out and in the short term, it can get you pretty far, but if you want to go anywhere deeper or more involved, eventually you’re going to have to realize that not all balances are so simple that they can be dealt with in such basic terms.

Wow I just realized I have social skills

Because you are in Jow Forums. I can't think of any place on the internet were you can find 25 year olds who are less socialized than here. Zero life experiences. Romcom Anime will not prepare you for the real world.

I'm sure you understood what I meant and are deliberately misinterpreting it. There's a difference between doing something nice and expecting appreciation (a thank you), and doing something nice with the expectation of an actual reward (such as cash, love, or keys to the city).

Genuinely nice people don't do nice things expecting to be rewarded. They do them because they think it's the right thing to do. And as the other user explained, it does feel good to be nice.
Men labeled as "Nice" guys do things for a reward. That's why they say stuff like "I'm nice, why won't she date me"?

The truth is they both aren't actually that nice, and their being nice (or lack of it) isn't the only reason they aren't getting fucked. But that would require looking inward, and blaming someone else is easier.

yep

Naturalistic fallacy only occurs with the claim "this is natural so it should be accepted".

That is not what went on here.

>With that I mean that honest nice people won't feel exploided when niceguys do.

Bullshit. If you give me money because I'm down and out and your friend, and I claim I need it, and then you see me riding around in a brand new car tomorrow, you will feel exploited.

singjupost.com/transcript-robert-sapolsky-on-behavioral-evolution-at-stanford/?print=print

>Another example of this. Research by a guy named Marc Hauser at Harvard looking at rhesus monkeys. And what he showed was, he would put these monkeys in a situation where they had access to food. They had access to food under one circumstance, where they could reach for it and take it in and share it with another monkey. Under the other circumstance, it required two monkeys to get the food in there. And what he showed was clear cut reciprocity. Monkeys who were sharing with this guy were more likely to get shared back with and got more cooperation when it was a task where two of them had to work together to get the food. One alone wasn’t enough. Many hands make the task lighter under all sorts of circumstances. Cooperation has a strong evolutionary payoff, even among non-relatives, with a condition. Which is, you’re not putting more into it than you are getting. That is reciprocal.

>And this opens up the third building block of all of this, which is reciprocal altruism. Cooperation, altruistic behavior among non-relatives, but undergoing very strict constraints of, it’s got to be reciprocated with all sorts of rules like that.
You ignorant fucking children in this thread, I swear. Reciprocity is core to pro-social behavior.

In addition, the behavioral psychoanalysts of the past have studied animal behavior enough to find that you can't play a social game to win. If you do, no one will want to play with you. You need to play a game that is, as JP would say, Stable Across Time. That you can play 'multiple iterations'.

Socializing isn't monopoly. You don't want to receive and give nothing back.

In an extreme example, what would people think of a person who was given gifts or niceties by their family and friends time and again but gave nothing in return?

Parasite. Why this revulsion? Because their cheating detector circuitry is lighting up like mad.

People make each other. If there's a lack of reciprocity, you're going to extinguish the kind of pro-social behaviors that you want from others. The use of this argument is basically "I'll let you give things to me but I don't have to give back".

All well and good, but not exactly applicable to "nice guys".

Girls often are reciprocating by being friendly/nice but this enrages the "nice guy" because they expected romantic rewards in return instead.

If the "nice guy" is not making an overt romantic gestures and moves, then according to your logic he's simply getting what he puts in - ergo, he has no basis for feeling jilted or ignored.

If he does make romantic overtures and gets spurned, then so be it. Surely no one would seriously suggest that a girl must reciprocate the feelings confessed to her by every man she ever talks to?

As long as we keep using motte and bailey I suppose we'll never actually make progress here.

This makes me feel good about my failed date tonight

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