Who was in the wrong here?

>sunnis wanted democracy
Wait, what?

Shia never demanded a monarchy initially, it was about committing to the will of Muhammad and letting Ali Rule. After the Shia saw how badly the other arab clans were tarnishing the legacy of Muhammad, they decided it was best for the Caliphate to become dynastic in order to preserve what the Ummayads were trying to destroy.

I'm sorry, but I have never seen one shred of historical evidence from a Sunni that their tradition has any kind of logical reasoning for this betrayal. I have spent 8 years studying this very seriously and looking at all sides, and I'm telling you, Sunnis are monsters that destroyed the traditions of Rasul Allah.

It's a catch phrase that terrorists use to cozy up to democrats and lefties. Islam is an egalitarian system, but it is also deeply aristocratic and republican. The Jihadi "Democracy" is a fabrication and a lie that extremist organizations use to indoctrinate westerners into submitting to the rule of a butchered form of Islam.

Sunnis do not believe in democracy, they believe in authoritarianism of the Imams who have no academic bearings in terms of what actually happened in Islamic history, either due to stupidity, the blind allegiance to corrupt family dynasties, or just outright immorality.

lmao, this

Yeah, true story that Shia kikes wouldn't fucking admit. Sunnis wants to lead the ummah who they see fit according to whom prophet choosed. Shia kikes chimped out because Ali, the prophets cousin and son-in law was the first pick but rathet 4. He's also younget and not have much leader experiences. Shia kikes went berzerk and assissinated Omar( Second Caliphe after Abu Bakr, and Osman the third caliphe while they're praying in the mosque.

Shias are the real kike terrorist that started this shit, it's just that we Sunnis excelled them better cause we've got the balls.
Even if you look up the first suicide bombers were Shia kikes that killed over 100 USA soldiers in Lebanon. Shias are cancer worse than kikes.

> because Ali, the prophets cousin and son-in law wasn't the first pick

fixed that shit

This nigger.

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Both for following a heretical preacher that commanded you to bow to a black cube in Mecca, effectively standardising idol worshipping in Islam, while Allah doesn't demand it nor a same prayer direction in Koran.

"Theology" wise: Ali for cucking & giving up his claim to lead that was bestowed upon him by Muhammed

I don't know if you understand Arabic, but here is a very related video to this issue:
youtube.com/watch?v=pkvpcyfQkCE

>while Allah doesn't demand it nor a same prayer direction in Koran.

Pekka, oot vitun kännissä and you dont know what you think you know, drunk head fuck

Look up surah at Makkah).) (2:144) IT clearly states that Muslim should pray and face the direction of Mecca.

Now, go back and continue drinking your shitty tasting koskenkorva faggot.

Ali never cucked, he was trying to observe the traditions of patience and tolerance with Abu Bakr and Umar. Ali was a gnostic puritan, he felt disdain for the world and didn't have the political experience of Muhammad. Ali was a simple man and a soldier, he spent his life in service to Muhammad, taking up the role of leadership was new, and he was still very young when Muhammad died.

Muslims also do not worship the black cube at Mecca, the tradition of circumambulation comes from an ancient Abrahamic tradition. Mecca is significant in Islam because it is said to built by Adam, and then by Abraham, it is symbolic of the origins of mankind. Although I would not put it past Sunnis to actually worship the building due to their apparent lack of conceptual and historical insight.

Muhammad for making this shit desert death cult.

the goat

Kek

Abu Bakr's gullibility was legendary. Not only did he hand over his own 6-year-old daughter in "marriage" at Muhammad's request, but his prophet even got him to believe in talking cows at one point:
Once Allah's Apostle; offered the morning prayer and then faced the people and said, "While a man was driving a cow, he suddenly rode over it and beat it. The cow said, "We have not been created for this, but we have been created for sloughing." On that the people said astonishingly, "Glorified be Allah! A cow speaks!" The Prophet said, "I believe this, and Abu Bakr and 'Umar too, believe it, although neither of them was present there. (Bukhari 56:677)

tl;dr Abu bakr, for being incarnation of stupidity

There is a semantic issue with translation of Islamic text. Virtually nothing Muhammad said was ever literal the way that we think of literalism in the west. There are kernels of wisdom within Islam, but you have to put in scholarly effort to dissect the translations and traditions to understand them. There are problems with Islam as well, and I don't deny this, but there are crucial sociological and governmental insights that the west needs to derive from Islam in order to survive the collapse that is looming over our societies.

Western nations need to learn that Islam is essentially what would have happened in the province of Judea if Christ would have survived and established his government against the Roman Empire.

okay, but how is that relevant to the piece i posted about Abu Bakr being the stupid yesman?

so you're Jesus would have become the mass murdering rapist that mohamed was?
please don't tell me this is what you meant

*so you're saying Jesus

It isn't. I agree with you that Abu Bakr was corrupt and lusted for power, and thus he sold his daughter off into a marriage before she could consent. I believe after some years of study that Muhammad went insane in his later years of life. The death of his first wife coupled with some other events caused him to develop a toxic messiah complex that harmed several people and eventually led to his assassination.

muslims

Islam is basically Mormonism, but older.

This is the stupidest bullshit I have ever seen. The west doesn't need to derive anything from Islam. There are plenty of systems that have existed before that we can build upon without having to rely on the second most idiotic pro-terrorist religion on the planet (Judaism is first). Islam only survives because of their forced conversions and intimidations. Do not expect certain things to flourish under any system that mimics Islamic theocracies. There's a reason why Muslim countries who do not allow western influence are impoverished, have high crime, etc.

Muhammad had a very different character and personality in his earlier years of life. He struggled greatly to establish a unified government. The consensus is typically that Muhammad only had sex with Aisha after her first period, which in those times was considered normal within the confines of an arranged marriage. I agree however with modern standards and think this is too young for women-kind to be married.

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firstly, he had a different character because he didn't have power to achieve his higher goals, but he still harassed Meccans
secondly, no he didn't, she still had dolls with her when he fucked her. And only girls who didn't have their cycles yet were allowe to have dolls

Shia countries are not anti technology first of all. Second of all, Islam has a deep tradition of social science that is one of the worlds greatest hidden treasures. Islam is the natural continuation of the Abrahamic tradition, although it has flaws, it is the most recent example we have of a truly archaic theocratic empire that managed to function under some of the most brutal conditions in terms of sociology, climate, and resources.

Yup, you are definitely retarded. Christianity grew through conversions when it was founded, and this was done under the Romans which outlawed Christianity. Jesus knew that he was going to die prior to his death. What Christianity had to do was promote government structures that were flexible enough to not stifle advancements, whilst preventing any outside influence from taking root. The US during WASP America was the ideal government where there were many freedoms, and innovations skyrocketed to the point where the US surpassed civilizations and countries that have existed for longer. The issue was that the government was so lenient on infiltrators and did nothing to address the situation that the US eventually became what it is today. Christianity should have been made the official religion in the US, but the free masons (kikes++) infiltrated the government while the US was developing. They should have enacted laws protecting the American culture, making English the official language, etc. This would have been achieved if our country was not founded by kikes who were constantly against American society which was mostly pro-freedom and overwhelmingly Christian.

MECCA'S LOCATION WAS CHANGED THO...fuck you fucking baby raping muslims. You're all stupid fucks.

You fundamentally misunderstand the source of Muhammad's power and influence over Arabia. It was something he worked for through an extraordinary discipline and demonstration of character. He was a very gentile person in his early life, it was after he saw the brutality of his opponents that he became more ruthless and vengeful as a means to defend the people who he had taken under his wing. Muhammad was one of the most Alpha men ever to live, and as an orphan he hated seeing people oppress others, this is what drove him to his psychological extremes.

As far as Aisha is concerned, You would have to site some literature for me to reference to take you seriously because a lot of your positions are very biased and based in gossip that doesn't align with the source material that I've read. Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consumated, which means that it is entirely plausible she had experienced her period by then. Again, I'm framing this so you can understand the customs of the times, according to my standards this is disgraceful and too young, but when looking at history, you have to understand it the way that the people of the time understood things in order to develop insight.

There are only 4 Shia majority countries, and do I have to remind you that the are not technologically advanced, which I comprehend that doesn't make them "anti-technology." I am saying that under the existence of Islam, there are various limitations imposed by any government that mimics such countries. Islam isn't a "natural continuation" of Abraham tradition when it primarily grew through forced conversions, conquests, invasions, etc. Islam has more flaws than positives, may I ask what your religion is?

Christ was betrayed by his Apostles plain and simple. He saw the writing on the wall and predicted his own death. Had he not died and gathered more souls towards his cause, things would have heated up to the point of warfare the same way it did with Islam. Contrary to popular belief, Muhammad was not the party to initiate combat, it was the Meccan trading confederation that rode out to medina to kill him and stop his movement that was undermining their current system of authority that centered around Pagan Gods and tied in to a loose form of economic bonds and government.

If the failed interpretation of Christianity could stop the collapse of US civilization it would have done so. Truth is simply that US needs to recognize it's best friends against China and Israel are Shia Muslims who are both Conservative and fundamentally Republican Societies. These countries are shit holes because Israel has been using the US to disempower them for political reasons.

my sources are Sahih Muslim and Bukhari, a.k.a the second holiest book in Islam
Book 008, Number 3309:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

as of now, you have provided nothing to support your claim that mohamed first had to be exposed to violence to become violent

>Shias are cancer worse than kikes.
And that is why you sunni dogs will always be the jew's puppet

I'm an Abrahamist put simply, maybe a Gnostic. There are other countries however like Morocco and Jordan that report to be Sunni, but hold many Shi'ite believes. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the entirety of Islamic history by western countries that causes serious miscalculations and costs to our government.

These countries might appear on the surface to be technologically disadvantaged, but I can assure it is not the case, they are just growing at a sustainable rate that the government can manage. They would be growing much faster if it wasn't for the war and sanctions since the dawn of the 20th century and the defeat of the Ottoman empire. Lastly Islam did go through periods of forced conversions, but this was always done under the Guise of Sunni Leadership, Shia only used force when it was to protect the existence of their nations and the people who had voluntarily accepted Islam. Islam in it's original form has a wealth of social customs and practices that could save western civilization.

that wasn't the decisive struggle that split islam, mainly because ali tolerated abu bakr and closely advised him
it was ali's struggle and ultimately civil war with Muawiyah that defined late Islamic history

>Truth is simply that US needs to recognize it's best friends against China and Israel are Shia Muslims who are both Conservative and fundamentally Republican Societies.

Are you joking? You guys cannot get your act together. All China would have to do is kill all your major leaders and you'd splinter off into a thousand peoples.

Ever wonder why the Assassin order could never effectively defeat the Templars or the Mongols? Cause if you killed their leaders someone else would just replace them. However when they killed a muslim leader instantly all of the small tribes and factions would splinter off and stop being a threat.

Muslim are tedious allies at best. No offense.

Islam is basically mormonism but because it is older its harder to see through its bullshit.

So you have proven my claim that the Marriage between Aisha and Muhammad happened after the age of 9, and by the description, it appears that she was in some kind of medical condition, which could easily be surmised as her first menstrual cycle.

The literature speaks for itself in terms of Muhammad's character opposed to the character of the wealthy traders in Mecca. These men were extremely cruel and tortured and killed slaves who had professed faith in a Monotheistic God. These men buried their own daughters in the desert because sons were more profitable. They were ruthless profiteers engaged in endless blood fueds. They thought they could kill Muhammad's revolution, and Muhammad was fortunate enough to have a community and enough wealth to defend themselves against them. Muhammad's message of equality undermined the caste system in Mecca and disturbed the balance of power, this is why they hated him and repeatedly harassed him and his family members for years before finally kicking him and his followers out of the city entirely. The reason Islam is fucked up is because these barbarians that kicked him out of his home for professing a monotheistic faith, eventually took control of the Caliphate and started practicing the same kinds of debauchery under the veil of Islam.

Muhammad himself even prophesied about this and many other things that are quite frankly psychedelic and remarkable.

The Assassins controlled a major territory in the levant using only a network of castles. Shi'ites are a minority in Islam, the fact that they were even contenders in these conflicts is a testament to the hardiness of Shi'ite zeal in terms of politics. Iran is very good at politics, they know exactly what they are doing. The fact that they have managed to survive all these years of sanctions against a completely corrupt international order should tell you something. US is going to become insolvent very soon, and we are going to need loyal allies, overlooking Iran because of "muh towers" is stupid especially when Israel and Saudi Arabia are responsible for it.

I think if you'd met any of the starters of the world's biggest religions it'd be an incredible experience. Muhammad probably had this almost hypnotic ability to persuade people. Even if under scrutiny the religion falls apart.

I disagree that it was just persuasion. I think that there was truly some greater theological reality emerging through his movement that has echoed into our present moment. I think that he was one of the most extraordinary natural philosophers of human history. He managed to organize the most tribally conflicted and hostile regions of the world into one governing body that hired less than 60 people to rule the entirety of the Hijaz. What he did was a miracle, and if we can understand it as moderns, we might be able to recreate it today for modern society.

Yeah, but they only kept the territory cause they inspired such terror in everyone around them. The methods which the assassins used against other muslims didn't work against the Mongols or the Knights Templar/Hospitaller. This was because once the local leader was killed all of the smaller factions would splinter off or contest each other for leadership. The Crusaders and the Mongols had laws which clearly define expected behavior.

Muhammed encouraged his followers to be deceitful to defeat the infidels. This is essentially doing what Jesus defined as, "Casting out Satan using Satan." It creates a system of distrust and conflict and why Islam will always, always fall in of itself.

>this fucking thread
Why do western flags know so much about Islam? Is everyone secretly a Muslim here lol?

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Aren't the oldest mosques in the world have a qibla that points at a different location to Mecca?

Just stop talking as if you know even the first thing about Islam. Parroting what you have heard from christian or secular sources is not insight, it's stupidity. This factionalism didn't ever exist in Shi'ite Islam and whoever is telling you this is just wrong. These structures were weak because they were so small and relied on anonymity and subterfuge to function. This btw was not a conventional tactic carried out during Muhammad's life. You posses a ridiculous lack of insight that is obvious to anybody who actually studies Islam. This is why Shi'ites don't have any respect for westerners, because the academic tradition here is steaming pile of shit that can barely look back past 1776.

yes, but the idea was never to pray towards Mecca. It was just a uniting tradition derived from the local practice of the Meccans who used to worship separate Gods that were placed inside of the building before Islam.

Jews.

> when it primarily grew through forced conversions, conquests, invasions, etc.
So just like Christianity? Don't forget that the Romans forcefully converted the Germanic pagans.

Everything good about Islam comes from Christianity.

>What he did was a miracle, and if we can understand it as moderns, we might be able to recreate it today for modern society.

No, not really. You can see the same sort of thing with the rise of fascism and communism. If Islam was ever successful in becoming the sole religion in the world it would cease to be. It requires an enemy to exist, an infidel. If an outer enemy does exist it fractures itself and the small pieces fight each other.

It is, Satan casting out Satan.

Islam is simply the arabic word for peace. It is a monotheistic tradition whose whole doctrine centered around calmness of mind and spirit. It is not a violent tradition no matter how many fake western "academics" and Sunni traitors try to slander it as such. Communism and Fascism both, again, if you actually study history, experienced extraordinary golden ages that fell quickly due to issues related to war in fascism, and successorship issues similar to those of Islam with Communism. Islam is not Satanic by any definition, if anything, Islam is more pure than the christian tradition because at least for some time they managed to establish a government that fought and defeated the barbarians in the region. Orthodox Christians all understand the things I am saying here, this is why the Russian Government is working so closely with Shia, because we are natural allies.

kek, this.

know your enemy, it's really that simple

Durka dan was in the wrong.

>Islam means peace
Ah HAH!
you are a liar, you officialy exposed yourself as a liar and a deciever with that simple sentence, Islam means submission, from which the word Muslim is derived from(literally meaning one who submitted in arabic), Salam means Peace, not Islam

I get why you are mad at Muslims. The worst and most cowardly of them flooded into your country as the US started its colonial adventurism east of you. If you want to know your enemy, study the US policies and practices that spun the refugee crisis in motion, and the Zionist agenda to ruin the racial heritage of europe. Those muslims that are in europe are bigger victims than you are just because their countries happen to be closer to Israel's borders. If you want them out the answer is to stabilize their countries so that they can go back home. I guarantee you most of them want to go back, it's just impossible because of what US and Israeli policy has done to those markets and economies.

same root:

S L M

Study Arabic.

to be more precise, the word root for Islam is Al-Silm, Submission, while Al-Salaam means

liar, see

the projection is strong with this post

*while al-Salaam means peace

You are grasping for straws calling me a liar over a trivial semantic debate. These terms are interchangable forms of grammar. Islam could be phrased as "One Who Is In Peace" or "One who Submits" where as Salaam is more like a Verb.

By giving permission to his followers to lie to non-believers, Muhammed unwittingly created a system would could eat itself from within. Inherently creating a system of conflict within the framework of the religion. All muslims seek to be like Muhammed, but disagree on the appropriate model of imitation and Muhammed failed to provide one. This leads to quarreling over, "What Muhammed actually said" since the religious text itself has loose, or contested, definitions. Resulting in all religious arguments being summed up thusly:

>"Your interpretation of the text makes you not a muslim since if you were a muslim you'd agree me."

or perhaps more simply:

>"Because you disagree with me you are a bad person."

Thus, Islam reveals itself to be a juvenile religion requiring further additions such sharia law to better define and identify it.

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Arabic grammar is quite different than english, everything kind of tumbles around a few root syllables. Islam and Salaam more or less have the same central meaning, they are just applied differently.

This is not semantics, you saying islam means peace is a classic example of a deceit perpetrated by mohamedans to hide their agenda/appear more appealing. In short, you are a liar and no, they're not related just because they share the same root, if it were the case Salama, meaning stinging of a snake, would be related to peace or submission, which in fact it isn't
your charade ends here

Islam is a mystical tradition that believes in the freedom of the spirit and the sovereignty of the individual. Islam does not prescribe excessive laws or rules, but gives very loose guidelines by which people should live their lives to maintain peace and equilibrium within themselves and society. I have yet to see a satisfactory Hadith about Taqiyyah that frames it in the manner you are framing it. The problem is with Sunnis who are soul-less apes that can't reason and think for themselves and need doctrine for everything they do. What Sunni's practice is not Islam, the sooner the Shia gain dominance in Islamic affairs, the sooner the world can return to peace.

Lissan al-arab a.k.a the most trusted arabic lexicon lists Islam as submission

islam is shit tier, everyone knows it. Except shit lovers

When I say, "Satan casting out Satan" I'm not saying Islam is a satanic cultic religion. What I am referring to is a system of expelling greater violence through lesser violence.

>Orthodox Christians all understand the things I am saying here, this is why the Russian Government is working so closely with Shia, because we are natural allies.

>because we are natural allies.

Oh, so you agree that you have similarities because both Iran and Russia are dictatorships? Glad we agree.

>Al-Silm
that's not a root honey bun it's another conjuring

>Islam is a mystical tradition that believes in the freedom of the spirit and the sovereignty of the individual.
really now, is that why your goal in Islam is to become the most perfect slave to Allah?

>the Zionist agenda to ruin the racial heritage of europe.

Which is why the UN loves Israel so much.

>conjuring
conjugation*

i know, the root is the 3 letters sin lam mim, i fucked up my terminology, apologies

You are mis-interpreting what I have said. Muhammad's name for his religion was akin to "The way of Peace"... or "The way of Submission" (Since you seem obsessed over this particular point, however they both fundamentally mean the same thing.) There are variations in the language but I'm still right. Ask somebody who speaks Arabic, they don't have to be muslim, they will tell you I am not wrong. Aside from this, Arabic does not translate over to english very easily, that is why there are multiple ways to say different things. It isn't your bastardized understanding of Taqqiyah, which is quite frankly an esoteric idea related to religious persecution and hiding your identity from people who want to kill you. Taqqiyah was practiced by the Shia who were being slaughtered by Moaviyah's decendents, they would pretend to be Sunni's to avoid being killed and having their families tortured. Under Muhammad's tradition, Islam is meant to be reasonable with other cultures and traditions, but the Sunni's took a massive shit on it's legacy and caused everyone to hate Islam.

News flash, the modern liberal order is incapable of gaining control of AI.

Yes. Unironically.

This is how you attain freedom and bliss, through service to God and everything he created.

The King demands democracy for Syria to this day.

i will repeat what i said, i don't give a shit about taqqiya, Lissan al-arab a.k.a the most authoritive arabic lexicon lists Islam as submission, stop pretending it's otherwise

You are just so butt hurt from getting ass blasted in this thread that you are obsessing over some stupid semantic detail so that you can call me a liar. Whatever dude go for it.

also you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, that you need to learn arabic in order to understand it, which is wrong, for a simple reason, if it can be learned, it can be translated and as far as i know, arabic can learned, therefore translated

How do you fags justify the legitimacy of the Hadith? They are literally just legends that accumulated over time and you retards take them as Gospel.

Fun fact: Mohammed was a Christian convert and Islam was his (re) interpretation of Christianity and you fags corrupted it even further with your endless "you can totally marry a 6 year old. My grandma told me it's alright and she knew someone who knew someone who was friends with someone who knew someone...

yeah the root is s-l-m
suppose you can loosely translate it to "submission", but a better translation would be "suing for peace"

>resorting to ad-hominem
i expected betterand yes, objectively you are a liar, you claim Islam is peace, which it isn't