>be low IQ anti-vaxxer idiot >think vaccines cause autisms, retardation, etc >law is passed forcing vaccines >be unvaccinated, but healthy taking lots of vitamins >hear knock on door.. "oh no" >open it up >police officer with mystery liquid juice in syringe >"drop those britches boy, this is going right in your butt" >"NO NO STOP" >runs away from police for violating non-aggression principle >shot for "resisting arrest" OR >held down by police, injected directly into his ass >Hypochondriasis mixed with nocebo effect takes hold, causing extreme obsessive thoughts & panic >every cough and headahe and weird feeling he gets, paranoid >convinced himself he is literally going to die any day because of vaccine >buys AR-15 at store >goes on shooting rampage at hospital, killing dozens of people before committing suicide
laws forcing vaccines are pure evil, wouldn't work but would create a black market for fake vaccine records as well as mass hysteria against them, leading to fewer vaccines. over 95% of people in every US state are vaccinated anyway
>be unvaccinated, but healthy taking lots of vitamins >vitamins vaccines are meant for avoiding epidemiological outbreaks, not for "staying healthy" with you fucking moron
>people have the right to spread diseases see above
John Baker
Refusing to take vaccines is anti-social behaviour and shouldn't be supported.
Adrian Taylor
If you're vaccinated then you have no worries bro, if you choose to stay unvaccinated then you run the risk of getting a disease. That's your choice.
Evan Bailey
>vaccines are meant for avoiding epidemiological outbreaks, not for "staying healthy" with you fucking moron
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543583 >Vitamin C in megadoses administered before or after the appearance of cold and flu symptoms relieved and prevented the symptoms in the test population compared with the control group.
vitamins help a lot, being healthy helps a lot. in fact, people in perfect health don't get sick from cold & flu -- their bodies fight it first. literally almost nobody is in perfect health though
regardless, vaccines shouldn't be legislated.
vaccinate yourself and stay free of disease, lol
Anthony Williams
>shouldn't be supported agreed, so is being an alcoholic but we shouldn't ban alcohol, we should just DISCOURAGE it by spreading information and educating others
no reason to make it illegal to not be vaccinated
Carter Morales
>>people have the right to spread diseases >see above
actually you can be sued for making someone sick
Isaiah Martinez
I miss these Tea party Jade-Helm era Photoshop pictures. Post more
I agree with that up until the point where it becomes a potential public health crisis, at which point the needs of society outweigh the right to be retarded.
Charles Hill
I think there's something to be said of the scores of parents saying that their child basically transformed overnight, pleading for anyone to listen to them. I feel that it's an insult to the parents as much as the doctors who tell the patient their fibromyalgia is "just in your head". I knew of a fervent pro-vaccination father on a website. Then it happened to his child. I really don't know what it is about vaccines that causes people to immediately mount such a hostile defense in favor of it. In my experience, typically it's those who believe science can do no wrong, that even lousy medicine is better than none at all.
A new peer-reviewed study comparing health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated children, provisionally published in a journal of public health and assigned a DOI number (a digital object identifier given by publishers to identify content and provide a persistent link on the internet), confirmed what parents like Sarah Carrasco have observed: that completely unvaccinated children have less chronic disease and a lower risk of autism than vaccinated children.
The researchers collected health information on over 660 children from a survey conducted in 2012 of mothers of children between six and twelve years old in four states (Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Oregon). According to the abstract, the team of four scientists found that completely unvaccinated children were significantly more likely to get chickenpox and whooping cough but significantly less likely to suffer from ear infections, pneumonia, allergies, and brain or central nervous system disorders, including autism.
>Vaccinated children were more than twice as likely to have some chronic illness. >Vaccinated children were nearly four times as likely to have learning disabilities, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and autism spectrum disorder. >Vaccinated children who were born prematurely were more than six times more likely to have brain or central nervous system disorders, including autism.
Ravenel, 78, admits that in his long career practicing medicine he used to dismiss the idea vaccines are connected to autism or other health problems in children. But now, after attending autism conferences, researching the peer-reviewed scientific literature, and paying more attention to parents’ experiences, he has changed his mind.
Vaccines most often happen at regularly scheduled checkups with GPs, when developmental issues like autism are most likely to be noticed and diagnosed. Additionally, they happen at stages in childhood growth when these issues are more likely to manifest themselves.
Ryan Robinson
Well it depends on if its purposeful. If you have chicken pox and spread it before the symptoms arrive, it sucks but it wasn't on purpose. If you fuck someone and give them AIDs on purpose or while knowing, that's different?
If you don't want to get sick, take the vaccine. Don't force others to do so, that's just morally wrong. Laugh at them when they do get sick, that's fine, but forcing is wrong.
With regard to vaccination against tick-borne encephalitis: In spring 2014, my mother received the first dose of that paricular kind of vaccination. The next days, her skin got itchy. Weeks later she was diagnosed with "spontaneous urticaria". With the symptoms still remaining after 6 weeks, the diagnosis changed to "chronic idiopathic urticaria". Later, when her symptoms got worse, she went to a dermatological clinic where a biopsy was performed. Since then, the label has been "urticarial leukocytoclastic vasculitis" or something. On the internet you can find links between vaccination and urticaria, and between urticaria and hypothyroidism (e.g., cases reported by Dr. David). The cause-effect relationship is still not clear to me, but I think, my mother had been hypometabolic for a long time (probably decades) and vaccination was the trigger for progession of this state, resulting in her symptoms.
>Well it depends on if its purposeful. If you have chicken pox and spread it before the symptoms arrive, it sucks but it wasn't on purpose. If you fuck someone and give them AIDs on purpose or while knowing, that's different?
you can sue someone for anything, really. i could sue you for farting near me and causing me to vomit, wasting precious nutrients that i obtained in a previous meal
Herd immunity is an anti-vaccer argument. If most other people are taking the vaccine, one person not taking it is probably not going to get it from the others. Even if he does, the rest of the "herd" is immune so only hat one person gets sick. What is your point?
Until you research the effects of mercury, dimerasol and squalene as preservatives in vaccines my brother. If you see the listing of benefits, check the counter argument.Tho as I understand preservative free vacs are available.
Bentley Walker
I was referring to the cases where people with compromised immune system can't get vaccinated, so they have to rely on herd immunity not to die. It isn't fair to them that some idiot be allowed to infect them with an entirely preventable disease.
Oliver Watson
Sucks to be them, I suppose. Again, forcing people to do something isn't moral, and while I do feel bad for them, the most you can do is promote vaccines and try changing minds.
Unfortunately life isn’t fair in general and certain things are beyond our control. It isn’t fair that I wasn’t born 6’5 and can’t play in the NBA while others can, and it isn’t fair that some people have lesser immune systems than others. Just because something is unfair does not mean a law should be made to “fix” it
Jayden Ward
Its comparable to epilepsy. You don't see the government going around banning raves and videos that have flashing lights.
Christian Clark
>I was referring to the cases where people with compromised immune system can't get vaccinated
that is stupid. the only reason a person can't get vaccinated is if they have a rock hard exoskeleton preventing a needle from piercing their skin
there is no objective way to determine who "can't get vaccinated" and someone simply saying "i don't want one" should be sufficient
Chase Roberts
>so they have to rely on herd immunity not to die wrong. people who allegedly "can't get vaccinated" can die from all sorts of things
>It isn't fair to them it isn't fair to people who don't want vaccines to be forced to get them, but people who allegedly "can't" (by no objective measure) do not have to get htem.
>some idiot be allowed to infect them actually, if they never leave their house, how could this happen? there are always solutions that don't involve violating people's rights
>an entirely preventable disease. no vaccine is 100% effective though
Nicholas Carter
again user, it's not about a harmless common cold but rather measles, pertussis, etc.
the issue is mostly about children not being vaccinated, not adults. even in the rare case of something like ebola, if you're an adult who chooses not to vaccinate, go for it. the problem are these same adults who let their children suffer through avoidable diseases which put them in risk of death, all because mommy and daddy believe in alternative medicine or that it causes autism—and that shouldn't be their choice.
regardless, anyone can get a vaccine. so why complain if you have the vaccine? you are immune, right? and if you can still get sick even if you are vaccinated, then it's ineffective
>your pic i didn't argue AGAINST vaccines, i argued against FORCING THEM on people. also, it could be fake, who cares? you're not sick. she should have vaccinated her child. i don't think the state should have forced that, she should have done it VOLUNTARILY
>CDC routinely recommends DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, at 15 through 18 months, and at 4 through 6 years. CDC routinely recommends Tdap for children ages 7 through 10 years who are not fully vaccinated (see note 1) against pertussis: Single dose of Tdap for those not fully vaccinated
>the issue is mostly about children not being vaccinated, not adults. even in the rare case of something like ebola, if you're an adult who chooses not to vaccinate, go for it. the problem are these same adults who let their children suffer through avoidable diseases which put them in risk of death, all because mommy and daddy believe in alternative medicine or that it causes autism—and that shouldn't be their choice. why not? it should absolutely be their choice, or the child's. it's a violation of human rights to FORCE vaccines.
also, you're pretending that people will all get them -- WRONG. making vaccines mandatory by legislation will open up a BLACK MARKET for fake vaccine records
do some digging with google, and you will find anecdote after anecdote in america of this
Jeremiah Murphy
>if you have the vaccine? you are immune, right? and if you can still get sick even if you are vaccinated, then it's ineffective Vaccines don't provide 100% immunity. People are different, and so are their immune systems. So some vaccinated people remain vulnerable to the diseases they were vaccinated for. From a public health policy standpoint of eradicating infectious diseases, the goal is to increase public immunity enough that there aren't enough vulnerable people for a disease to spread. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number For example, a 90% immunity rate for a vaccine would prevent smallpox from spreading, and therefore result in smallpox dying out. 90% isn't good enough for measles. If there is a population that doesn't vaccinate, it serves as a reservoir that preserves diseases that can infect those vaccinated people who lack immunity. The diseases won't spread in the larger vaccinated community to any significant degree, but people would die, and people would get pissy about it.
>Vaccines don't provide 100% immunity exactly. and some people would rather take the risk of experience the multitude of undesirable "side effects" for something that may not even work
>People are different, and so are their immune systems. So some vaccinated people remain vulnerable to the diseases they were vaccinated for. From a public health policy standpoint of eradicating infectious diseases, the goal is to increase public immunity enough that there aren't enough vulnerable people for a disease to spread. that's cool and all, but the "goal" of police and laws is to protect people from violations of their rights. not legislate morality onto people and act as their parent
>If there is a population that doesn't vaccinate, it serves as a reservoir that preserves diseases that can infect those vaccinated people who lack immunity. the only way to stop this is to educate people. legislating vaccines will create a black market for fraudulent vaccine records.
>The diseases won't spread in the larger vaccinated community to any significant degree, but people would die, and people would get pissy about it. worry about yourself. literally do pic related
there is absolutely no justification for violating a person's human rights if they are just minding their own business
if you legislate vaccines, you will create a black market for false records. also, it will create public paranoia of people who think they must be bad because it is forced, when nearly 100% of people just get them willingly
sorry, but i don't support sending jack-booted thugs door-to-door and forcibly injecting people with mystery liquids
This Myocarditis after Vaccination – is good evidence of harm done-- 3% of heathy people react with myocarditis
>Vaccination causes myocarditis in 3% of healthy patients (Helle, Koskenvuo, Heikkilaet al.1978; Amsel, Hanukoglu, Friedet al.1986) . Part of this can be explained by circulating antigen precipitating in the heart tissue however people often develop autoantibodies to myocardial tissue after damage to the heart (Rose, Herskowitz, Neumannet al.1988) and this response may be exacerbated by a vaccine draining into a lymph node where the autoimmune process is developing. In either case the myocarditis induced by vaccination can lead to chronic autoimmune destruction of the myocardial tissue.
why stop with vaccines?
why not force people to take vitamins?
why not force fat people to exercise?
it's all arbitrary and subjective. especially "people who can't get vaccines" -- anyone can get injected with liquids, A-N-Y-O-N-E
Jonathan Roberts
>some people would rather take the risk And since it also puts other at risk, failure to vaccinate is a violation of the NAP. Do it innawoods or not at all.
>the "goal" of police and laws is to protect people from violations of their rights Like the right to life? At any rate, that's only a part of the purpose of laws and la enforcement. Generally, they're for making society function according to various people's interests. You may not like that, but that has been the state of the world since the dawn of civilization.
>legislating vaccines will create a black market for fraudulent vaccine records. And since it also gets vaccination rates to the point where herd immunity kicks in, that doesn't really matter.
>literally do pic related That's costly and obtrusive compared to vaccines. Cost/benefit matters. The cost of making and enforcing laws is a part of the consideration, and it doesn't take many cases of people being crippled or dying from preventable diseases to offset all that in most people's estimation. Do you have any idea what things were like before vaccines?
>i don't support sending jack-booted thugs door-to-door and forcibly injecting people with mystery liquids Which is fine. but that's not how vaccine requirements are enforced. If you want to argue against something go right ahead, but why not address the actual state of the thing you're arguing against rather than a work of fiction?
Robert Powell
>it's all arbitrary and subjective. especially "people who can't get vaccines" -- anyone can get injected with liquids, A-N-Y-O-N-E It's about cost vs. benefit. In the case of vaccines, it's massively tilted in favor of benefits in almost all cases according to common value systems. In rare cases, like people with ineffective or destroyed immune systems, a vaccine would offer limited protection even if it worked at all (it relies on a function of the immune system), while having greater risks in the case of live vaccines. Cost-benefit is what determines who is a "person who can't get vaccines". And it's not "can't" but "shouldn't" according to some metric.
Leo Martin
>vaxchoicevt.com/myocarditis-after-vaccination/ Myocarditis is a minor and temporary condition. It doesn't take many cases of death to offset a 3% chance of temporary inflammation that probably won't be noticed anyway. Did you read this part in your link, quoted from the author of the study? >"However, this complication does not outweigh the beneficial effects of the influenza vaccination in patients at risk." Again, it's costs and benefits. Pointing out that there are costs does not address the argument that the benefits outweigh the costs.
Grayson Evans
>And since it also puts other at risk, failure to vaccinate is a violation of the NAP. Do it innawoods or not at all. false. it doesn't inherently put anyone else at risk. a hikkimori that isn't vaccinated will never contract a disease, or give it to anyone else
further, you admit they are not 100% effective, therefore a person can be vaccinated and still put others at risk. being generally unhealthy, fat makes you an incubator for diseases like cold, flu, which kills young children and old people all the time
>Like the right to life? taken by your own failed immune system and/or a virus/bacteria
>And since it also gets vaccination rates to the point where herd immunity kicks in, that doesn't really matter. this "point" is arbitrary, also you are making up lies. there is literally no evidence for this whatsoever
>That's costly and obtrusive compared to vaccines it is actually more effective. not everything has a vaccine, don't you know? its' far more effective
>Cost/benefit matters it's more effective
>The cost of making and enforcing laws is a part of the consideration, and it doesn't take many cases of people being crippled or dying from preventable diseases to offset all that in most people's estimation. Do you have any idea what things were like before vaccines?
yes, the diseases were decreasing a lot. also, there was no internet or many other technological advances. pic related
further, it will never happen. it isn't law, and never will be. if it was made law, more people would be killed by anti-vaxxers who shoot up hospitals in retaliation. see OP greentext
>but that's not how vaccine requirements are enforced that is how legislating vaccines would work, actually. what happens to an adult who REFUSES a "mandatory vaccination" ? be specific. they are readily and willing to kill anyone trying to inject them. the would become violently suicidal and promise to "take out as many doctors as possible" if they were ever injected.
>the greater capability of medical treatment to stave off death means that preventative measures don't matter See pic related for the effect vaccines have on the incidence of disease. A vaccine is cheaper than a hospital stay.
>this "point" is arbitrary Didn't you see this link? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number Each infectious disease has a typical rate at which a infected person will infect others of a vulnerable population. When part of the population is made immune, the average number of new infections per infected person drops off. If it's below 1, outbreaks can't get going in the first place because the chain of transmission is statistically likely to break before many people are infected. For a given basic reproduction number, you can mathematically calculate what percentage of the population has to be immune for herd immunity to prevent the spread of disease, as I explicitly explained here >it's more effective It's also more costly, both in direct costs (which are not unsubstantial) but particularly in opportunity costs. A person in a bubble has to plan their life around it. You don't seem to quite grasp the idea that both costs and benefits matter at the same time.
>anyone trying to inject them Is this a response to proposed legislation or to a fanfic?
>See pic related for the effect vaccines have on the incidence of disease. A vaccine is cheaper than a hospital stay.
i don't see any effect in that graph. i see cases of measles on one axis, and some arrows indicating when certain events happened. what % of people didn't get vaccinated?
>Didn't you see this link? yes, it doesn't justify violating human rights. do you support eugenics because it will improve quality of life for future populations? sterilization?
do you support mass murder of inferiors?
>Each infectious disease has a typical rate at which a infected person will infect others of a vulnerable population. impossible to predict at the individual level. some people interact with thousands a day. some interact with 0 and never leave their room
>It's also more costly, both in direct costs (which are not unsubstantial) but particularly in opportunity costs. A person in a bubble has to plan their life around it. depends on your lifestyle, actually
>You don't seem to quite grasp the idea that both costs and benefits matter at the same time. they absolutely matter. i vaccinated myself, and i will vaccinate my children. no law needs to exist for that.
you can't seem to grasp the concept of human rights though
>Is this a response to proposed legislation or to a fanfic? legislation obviously. what happens to someone who MUST get a vaccine and refuse? tell me what happens when someone REFUSES to take a vaccine.
what happens to an adult who REFUSES a "mandatory vaccination" ? be specific. they are readily and willing to kill anyone trying to inject them. what if say they would become violently suicidal and promise to "take out as many doctors as possible" if they were ever injected. what then?
