(Communism))) and Anarcho (((communism))) are anachronistic to traditional leftist ideology(such as Mutualism and anarcho-collectivism). Communism is effectively a hypocritical view advocating for absentee ownership on behalf of poor people, instead of rich landowners. The whole idea of "each according to ability according to need" is the advocation of benefitting from others work, while not being involved in the production process. In fact, Marxists were almost entirely absent from the Paris Commune and it wasn't until the first international, after Proudhon's death that Marxism achieved any clout, while Marxists attempted to force out The libertarian half out of the International. Fuck these assholes.
The LTV must be applied to everyone and not just The rich, either its applied to everyone or no-one.
> red == commie
Red was the color of the first international, and should not be strictly associated with communism, as it was co-opted by Marxists.
No Point Perse, Just Informative, Trying to clear up misconceptions, as well as gather support for driving out both capitalism and communism away from Anarchism.
Tyler Williams
There essentially isn't a strong enough presence on Jow Forums From anarchism, so being that presence is important in discourse.
Hudson Rogers
Anarchist communism is a thing though. Like, it's the main school of anarchism.
Wyatt Allen
>snowflake schism ideology yeah good luck with that
Henry Sullivan
I’m glad you posted this on Jow Forums. It should be here, and should be considered by serious minds, not that I agree with most of it, however usually Jow Forums is ‘chock full o nuts’, so thanks.
Ian Gomez
Not True at all, Anarcho-communism is revisionist to anarchist beliefs, Anarchism started out as an ideology which was very critical of communism, Particularly from Both Proudhon, The first person to call himself an anarchist who as very critical of pre-marxist communism and later Bakunin who was a communist for some time, until he later rejected it.. Proudhon, was very critical of society, or the state Holding the means of production, while anarcho-communists want society to hold the means of production.
> pic related.
Anarcho-communism is the schism ideology, I am fairly orthodox to actual anarchism, Anarcho-communism is(((anarchism))) without anarchy, in that it holds an obligation to society as a whole to give up the product of their labor, implementing a social contract, Mutualism/Anarcho-collectivism does no such thing. Proudhon, was very critical of society, or the state Holding the means of production, while anarcho-communists want society to hold the means of production.
Ncla literally stands for Non-communist-leftist-aktion/anarchism its an original flag and would likely be looked down upon by revisionists like the communists.
Jack Long
>>the advocation of benefitting from others work, while not being involved in the production process.
Social security or anyone on disability, unemployment benefits, medical or family leave; instances where person doesn’t produce however benefits. I believe it is ok, though. These are good benefits for a democracy to have.
Anyway, the whole concept of an "Anarchist flag" is sort of silly, and mostly meant for communicative reasons.
> Social security or anyone on disability, unemployment benefits, medical or family leave; instances where person doesn’t produce however benefits. I believe it is ok, though. These are good benefits for a democracy to have.
Social security within an Anarchist society would or could be replaced with Transferrable pensions, and so on, the funds placed into a T-Pension have been derived from someone's labor and can either be used by the worker themselves or transferred to someone else to benefit from and is recognized the Federation/co-op the Individual worker has chosen to work with, as a Mutualist I have no issue with Individual management or ownership of a business myself either.
The CNT-FAI are communists, and therefore they are counter-productive to the liberation of the proles.
Dominic Long
Ok user, please be brief.
Well, firstly why would anyone believe that people would be ok without a social contract government?
Secondly, why would anyone believe that anyone would be ok if a monstrous government controlled everything one does?
And regarding fascism and monarcy, why would anyone believe that one person, whether military general or king, ever have a majority of people in mind to help and not just themselves constantly?
Brayden Sanders
jesus dude talk less. it's boring as fuck to read all this shit
These systems are so flawed, there is no choice with kings, royalty, god kings, military dictators, or any kind of martialist government like a communist one which would claim to end classes but would in fact have a ruling one that can’t be touched. A large mob would just splinter into smaller fiefdoms, fail, fail, fail.
Jose Rogers
so what you're saying is capitalism and communism aren't anarchist
Hudson Ward
Shuddup dumb soldier stationed in Korea. Go liberate the North or something.
Elijah Perry
So say you have a sick family member, you could transfer a portion of your labor notes value into a pension which they can benefit from since they cannot work,
> Well, firstly why would anyone believe that people would be ok without a social contract government?
Giving the state a monopoly on violence just perpetuates violence and coercion, say being forced paying taxes to subsidize corporations, state Violence against its own citizens and the citizens of other nations only rationalizing senseless chaos.
> Secondly, why would anyone believe that anyone would be ok if a monstrous government controlled everything one does?
Well, its certainly happened in the past, The Bolsheviks, Nazis, Feudalism, capitalism so on.
> And regarding fascism and monarchy, why would anyone believe that one person, whether military general or king, ever have a majority of people in mind to help and not just themselves constantly?
It's that very sense of self-interest that will have people co-operate, as that is in there best interest.
because actual left-wing ideas are more developed and can't be explained in so few words.
Julian Edwards
Bring the troops home and smash the state & capitalism.
Thomas Jackson
Capitalism in US would be Anarchist if it wasn’t directed by a representative Gov. or by multiple ruling Inc.
James Wright
LTV is a fucking meme and doesn't work
The only thing we have to allocate resources efficiently is the market. You can't constantly monitor the hundreds needs and desires of hundreds of millions to determine how much of each good to make. The only thing that works is using price signals. Life isn't fair sometimes; get over it. Get a job.
Anthony Collins
anarcho-syndicalist, they're anarcho-syndicalist.
Ryder Myers
I get smashing the state because the state will kidnap you and send you to fight a needless war, but what have property owners ever done to you beside from paying you shitty wages?
He thinks his labor is worth some magic number completely removed from what people are willing to pay for it.
Leo Martin
Who do you think benefits and profits from all those wars the common man gets sent to fight in?
>protip: not you.
Nathan Sanchez
Capitalism =/= Markets.
socialist ideologies such as mutualism have no issue with markets, in fact I'm a pretty big advocate of hands-off economics. self-regulating markets are best.
read the current FAI site. they're commies.
Usury for one, Rent is the derivation of wealth from one person to another for the simple matter of use, making money from money, then there is the fact that the collective force also known as surplus value is not satisfied.
Which LTV cause the one i believe in works very well:
Necessary amount of labor + complexity + materials = Price/wage.
And not at all , someone who has a skill which is unspecialized will be paid significantly less than say a Computer programmer or surgeon.
Mason Edwards
Getting a job just leads one to a small communist dictatorship, they don’t kill you, just fire you.
You really think the markets are controlled by the ‘invisible hand’ of Capitalism. It’s directed by the interests of multy Inc.s and private owners that don’t give a fuck about us at all.
Quite uninspired, user.
Joseph Powell
so you want to smash capitalism because rent. Idk dude I'm more worried about this than rent or loans
I like you user. That is quite true however oft forgot.
Jeremiah James
How do you determine the price of materials? Think of all the inputs and outputs on something like steel pipe. How do you figure out how much steel pipe costs? Because labor is inexorably tied up in that cost you can't just make up some arbitrary calculation for what the price based what some arbitrary unit of labor. There's nothing special about labor that distinguishes it from other goods.
Gavin Parker
I say also Known as since Marx literally stole the same idea which was initially known as "collective force" from Proudhon, while Proudhon didn't really mind the individual ownership of a business, he thought that since a larger means of production relies on each worker co-operating in some way with one another, each one of them should be compensated for there portion of the labor according to its necessity,
Ever heard of the military industrial complex? there's a distinct connection between capitalism and the state, as well as the subsidization of private banks, which keep us all slaves and then there the fed.
Kayden Sanders
I don't get the mentality of ancoms. I get that rent and loans are lame, but is it really anything in comparison to the government shooting your dog in a drug raid? Like no one's rights are infringed when someone rents a house or takes out a loan.
The price of materials would be derived from how much labor went into deriving those materials say you have two co-ops, One pays the other for the materials according to how much necessary labor and the complexity of labor that went into turning freely available natural resources into the end product, since Nature cannot really be owned by anyone.
Connor Parker
>owning an animal
Leo Rogers
Im not an ancom and see this post:
> Ever heard of the military industrial complex? there's a distinct connection between capitalism and the state, as well as the subsidization of private banks, which keep us all slaves and then there the fed.
I'm saying that capitalism and the state are willing partners and not one is worse then the other since they both have an equal level of violence.
Asher Hall
> the complexity of labor How is this determined?
Kevin Butler
"rights" don't exist, and think of it this way, why did the American revolution happen? because some absentee king was charging them through taxation for use of "his" land, how is this any different then a absentee landlord charging rent from California to someone in Nevada? and i would never want to abolish rent i would want to abolish the usury sort of rent where the landlord themselves don't derive use beyond the collection of wealth from state-recognized property, effectively turning property into informal possession.
surgeon > ditch digger. One is much more complex than the other.
Josiah Evans
being a surgeon requires a particular set of skills, you naturally need to have steady hands, and you have to have gone to medical school, or in the anarchist case Trade school/apprenticeship, while ditch-digging could literally be done by anyone with two hands.
Kevin Campbell
We can’t live without labor, and it’s because of it that we live. Labor is what sustains us. It is our contribution to the good, and becomes a good in itself in a sense, (not a commodity).
Cameron Martinez
I should say I want to turn Property into possession since The land itself is impossible to own, Private property differs from possession in that property is the state recognized title of use while possession is based on the consensus of use.
Levi Hall
>surgeon > ditch digger. One is much more complex than the other. This is still hand waving. We haven't even reached a point where we can figure out what a foot of steel pipe should cost. How do you take the complexity of someone's applicable skillset and experience and turn that it a number that you apply to the value of a foot of pipe?
You can't. This is what markets do. It outsources valuation of goods and services to people's internalized priorities. Instead of using a computer system to determine prices we are using a cybernetic system.
Leo Stewart
I would say it's more valuable they any commodity if labor didn't exist gold couldn't be mined, nor diamonds.
Dylan Morris
Yeah, nah.
Joseph Bennett
Is this another thread where leftshits of all flavors pretend to know shit about labor, before they run away to whine to international banks and payment processors to get rid of us for that nasty hate speech?
wtf is this? Summarize your shitty cult in 1 line. SAGED
Joseph Watson
> his is still hand waving. We haven't even reached a point where we can figure out what a foot of steel pipe should cost.
> You can't. This is what markets do. It outsources valuation of goods and services to people's internalized priorities. Instead of using a computer system to determine prices we are using a cybernetic system.
The LTV isn't incompatible with markets( i like markets), and the translation of Labor into a price or wage can be derived from time and the complexity of the labor performed in that time, for example since a Surgeon had to acquire a scarce set of skills to become a surgeon, they are already more valued than someone who doesn't have these skills, but if everyone was a surgeon his labor would be worthless
Helicopter time.
> when you can't read.
Levi Ortiz
>Helicopter time.
Well that's just rude.
Adam King
Yeah, I'm the one in the cult alright.., what about the cult of capitalism or the cult of the state, where literally 99% of the population are too afraid to question its legitimacy.
I literally said in the OP that im, not a communist.
> pic related.
William Miller
Communism is Intellectually dishonest, Marx was not only a hypocrite but a plagiarist as well, if it weren't for Proudhon and early forms of Utopian socialism, Marx would've been a no-body/
Bentley Wood
I'm not really keen on Marx's ideas about communism, however his critique of capitalism was spot on.
Alexander Edwards
NCLA stands for Non-Communist-left-anarchism.
> try again sweetie.
I sort of agree, I particularly enjoy the portions that went on to become situationism and Post-Marxism, but even that stuff is plagiarized, Why use the meme flag?
>Anarchism is literally the most sustainable because it doesn't put any faith in the incorporeal This is a non sequitur. Anarchy is unstable and impossible because individuals are not at parity, never will be at parity, and never can be at parity. This disparity leads to power accumulation, which leads to further disparity, which leads to wealth accumulation and so on.
Aaron Flores
Dude, please keep posting threads on here, this was the most interesting thread on Jow Forums for a long long time!
Think of it this way, the more Moving parts a Machine has, the more likely it will fall into entropy, with anarchism no such moving parts exist considering there is no way for someone to acquire power and therefore no-hierarchy, also wealth accumulation would be a near impossibility since you would be paid and wealth would be accumulated through labor, if you didn't put the labor into receiving the funds, the wealth itself null as the value of the currency is your labor, otherwise it's just a piece of paper.
