Should we nationalize basic utilities for society such as rail and the energy services?
>inb4 muh socialism
Not an argument. The rail service in the UK is terrible right now and the concept of 'competing railways' is a literal meme, much like 'competing roads'.
Also Richard Branson has already been bailed out massively by the taxpayer so why shouldn't it be nationalized? Why should we have to prop up his bad business decisions with nothing in return?
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Yes, because it doesnt work. Theory > Reality
Rails and Energy services basically never have real competition, you cant build another rail or copper line to outcompete everyone, the state is regulating rightfully where its possible to build shit, so the market is never really free, and even if the market is free you wouldnt want 3 railroads and 5 transmission towers
In the current capitalism world - yes. Companies are greedy as fuck and never seem to be held to account, at least with gov owning you can vote a party that might do something different.
>might
lol good luck the government is the biggest mafia absent transnational corporations
This isn't how it works in the UK
The rail line is owned by Network Rail, which is a nationalized company. The private company would then be leased a contract to be an operator.
Exactly. Similar to how you can't just 'build a new coal mine' or drill a new oil reserve. In theory you 'can' but it's logistically not realistic.
How come everyone here talks about this stuff as if we're in some free market meme world already?
Governments create useless committees and make work jobs that siphon funds and shit up any service they are in charge of.
The utilities will end up more expensive and provide a shittier service as a result.
Rail is always going to be a monopoly. You cannot have competing railways because it makes no sense in reality because of the amount of infrastructure needed to be built.
People need to use the railways to get to work and back so it's vital to the country, so having some private business charge extortionate prices just because it can. That's the situation in the UK right now, you have companies providing bad service at extreme prices, we have the worst train service in all of Europe.
No, rail is good for transporting goods. The rest is about restricting freedom of movement per the evil satanic communist jewish UN Agenda 21 plan, and forcing you to pay for it.
>The rest is about restricting freedom of movement per the evil satanic communist jewish UN Agenda 21 plan, and forcing you to pay for it.
How is nationalizing the rail doing that?
Explain yourself burger.
The rail charges extreme prices right now for bad service, and it's basically already part 'nationalized' in a sense since the taxpayer already has to bail it out, like it did with Virgin a few years back.
So the taxpayer gets screwed by propping up a failing business, and then gets screwed by the same business charging high prices.
The worst of both worlds.
Nationalize energy and nobody will conserve it. I thought we were supposed to be afraid of more carbon in the air.
I was talking about the monopoly part. If you want to take your industries and consolidate them into one single authority instead of having a balance of powers, that's your decision.
I'd rather save the government as a way to break up monopolies or put them into bankruptcy if they can't run themselves on an even budget. If part of being successful is agreeing on a standard for rail specifications or sharing interchangable cars then they can do that or the government can mandate at their expense if it's that bad of a madhouse.
Utilities are not only state run, but monopolies here.
If you bgo down that road, expect:
>High prices, rising randomly without logical explanation year after year.
>Lousy service and non existent customer support (because you pay forcefully anyway)
>Rude, fat, ugly greasy employees.
>Strikes (and strikes to decide if they go on a strike)
japan does pretty well with some private rail, sort of.
but services like electic and gas and water should be city run, but with high oversight.
So you retards know the word they use is to make you get feels. If the government controls industry you are not free.
I was very impressed when time when I scheduled a meeting with my city's water board to argue down close to $1k in past charges after forcing them to try to cough up all kinds of records to prove that they were legitimate.
My city's water company doesn't have the best reputation in the world, but they were pretty damn ready to be reasonable when some random showed up with documented evidence and a good reason why that was some kind of bullshit.
Public transport is a public utility, just like roads, water, electric/gas, internet, healthcare, education, military/police, fire.......
I hear the trains ran on time long ago in Italy...
>The worst of both worlds.
For the people, yes, but not for the politicians and bureaucrats that get to receive bribes and erect and maintain corruption schemes as a result of this arcane management ethos.....
>Nationalize energy and nobody will conserve it.
The government charges you, but only enough to cover the generation and provision of said utility, they don't rape your wallet to benefit a few Jewish people that own stock in the company.
Yes. Nationalize energy. At least the grid. Our energy grid was sold to foreign private actors by corrupt politicians.
blue pilled car owner.
china and japan does rail right.
thats the dark side. a few examples of companies run by whites:
The old gas company in California (before it was bought out) was run amazingly. cheap rates, good service. I knew a guy with an antique gas stove and the gas company came and cleaned it for free. paid well, lifetime job, still low rates.
.
Electric company in new Mexico (united states), well run, structured the exam so nonwhites would not get hired, did things like keep spare poles stashed around mountain roads and rural areas so they could fix a fallen pole fast. Worked for 70 years. Now it is all centralized and if power goes out you might be out of power for an extra 4 days while they haul in spare parts from the hub
we can nationalize things after we purge the treasonous dual-citizens from office, we can't pay extra to have extra nice things until we know for sure the checks and balances will work the way they need to
Saskatchewan here. 14.28c per kilowat hour. Power was out 3 times over the last month.
>car owner
OH NO I'M A CRIMINAL
See, folks? I told you that it's about removing freedom of travel. My city's transportation planner (she's a woman of course) even announced they want to overload the roads per their UN Agenda 21 kike plans so as to force people out of cars and into trains and buses.
She actually said that. On the radio. In public.
Ayn Rand is screaming at us from hell
This.
Nationalization of railways is exactly the plot of Atlas Shrugged
Yes
Sounds familiar.
Ayn Rand sucks.
How do you break up a rail monopoly though? People need to use the rail to get to work so you can't just make it cease to be for even a small amount of time.
Also nationalized rail isn't a weird concept anyway, a lot of places do it and have no problems.
Nationalized energy would still get paid for, just not randomly increasing the prices for corporate greed.
I'm not talking about 'freedom of travel' as such. People need to use the trains for work commutes and always have done, always will. Many jobs have always been that way.
>Taiwan
>chineserailgrowth.gif
Something isn't right here
Yes and it's a crap book with no bearing on reality.
Lobertarians can never accept that facts don't care about their feelings. That you can't just build thousands of miles of infrastructure on a whim to 'compete', nor is it logistically possible to have competing rail or energy. You can't just build a new coal mine either.
Rand's 'theory' is provably wrong because there are many countries existing right now with nationalized rail and their services, especially in Europe, are much better than the clusterfuck that is the UK.
Our railway system + railway company was much better before they started to privatise it.
The retardedness of our system is just unbelievable, our railway company has to pay for repairs and maintenance but the state pays for new infrastructure, now they just wait until everything's so broken that they can't repair it anymore and the state has to pay for the "new" infrastructure.
How do you break it up? Dumbass, how do you think it got to be a corporation in the first place? Because of government charter.
The power that giveth can also taketh away. I don't know exactly how it goes over in your parts, but we have extensive bankruptcy laws in the US.
>all these zoomers who dont remember the colossal shit show that was British Rail.
What's the point you're making then?
I'm arguing that the monopolies should be broken up because they're doing a shit job right now and are basically tax payer helped anyway so fuck them, if they can't serve the nation then they shouldn't exist as private entities.
You were arguing that state intervention is scary and bad before.
I agree with Teddy Roosevelt also for instance.
>Implying it's not a a colossal shitshow right now
WORST TRAINS IN YUROP
I'm guessing that the accumulated weight of exorbitant union contracts and governmental misappropriation are taking their toll?
Like I literally just said, you have no idea how bad it actually was.
what are you talking about gaijin? the Japanese railway used to be all private lines but they were collapsing so *then* most were consolidated into a quiz-public owned utility. You have it backwards.
Dont complain about your rail.
it runs on time to 5 seconds,
is clean and safe
and goes fucking everywhere
it is 1000x better then most places public transport
this map doesnt even show half of it, especially the private lines
also this
cnet.com
Nationalization and breaking up monopolies are two different things. Sometimes nationalization is a reasonable option, because sometimes at the end of the day the best you have left is to smash something with the power of government.
But it's as shitty an option or shittier than a monopoly or a cartel. Where's your balance of powers now? You can't even fucking brexit over there and you want to trust the government even more?
There's no way I'd choose state run shit after living here 30 and experiencing it myself. It ALWAYS fails, no matter how good it starts.
You know, some Public networks/utilities/industries, no matter what they be, are more effective than Private ones in some circumstances. What ruins the Public sector is corruption. Both on the Union side, and the Management side. Plus the State is there itself, lurking in the background with it's own actors engaging in rent-seeking schemes on the public tit.
The free market solution that meets everyone in the middle is Georgism. You can’t rightfully profit off of shit that has been in the ground for millennia, but you can profit from refinement, extraction, and distillation. Instead, the cost of crude oil in the free market should be distributed amongst all people in a country, through a permanent fund, so you can afford your gas. It’ll incentivize companies to pursue green technologies that aren’t technically taxable, or more efficient technologies, which will drive down the cost of things like electricity or hydrogen, or things that are derived from the natural world like ethanol, which would give even resource poor states an opportunity to cash in on their agricultural waste resources like potatoes and corn that don’t meet USDA standards.
I’m an idealist, but i’m also a nationalist. I’d like my countrymen to benefit from the resources of this country while maintaining the free market for labor and labor intensive goods, services, and intellectual property, and teach as many people as possible how to invest their time and money for their own benefit at the expense of Mommy and Daddy states worldwide.
Not corruption, that's the least of the problems. When you force people to pay for your service, companies get sloppy from the top down.
Only plus I can think of is that they will provide the service to isolated areas that otherwise wouldn't get it because of it not being profitable
Shitty fan fiction for libertarian incels who fantasize about being the epic hero in a book.
>But it's as shitty an option or shittier than a monopoly or a cartel. Where's your balance of powers now? You can't even fucking brexit over there and you want to trust the government even more?
The Government likes having unaccountable businesses running everything, and the govt is in bed with them too. The EU is a rich boys club which only benefits multinationals too.
The rail company is always going to be a natural monopoly since you can't compete with it, there is not a perfect solution but it being nationalized would be superior to this half and half thing we have now.
This is true. Public-private partnerships are a favorite so that there's no accountability.
But ask yourself: if you can't get the government to hold the corporation accountable then what makes you think the government is going to hold itself accountable? Given those odds, I'll take balance of powers over centralization so at least hopefully you can pit evil against evil.
Taiwan is rightful Chinese clay.
Wait your mail isn’t nationalized?
>atlas shrugged is libertarian
Atlas shrugged is objectivist significant difference
>facts don’t care about your feelings
True but quoting Ben Shapiro is chief faggotry
>the government will not randomly increase prices because of beurocratic greed
>he thinks he can stop them from doing it, too
pretty naive
>The rail service in the UK is terrible right now
And you really think adding a bureaucracy to it will be an improvement?
You really are an island of inbred retards. Even African-Americans are smarter than that.
>Atlas Shrugged is about railroad nationalization
Atlas Shrugged is about how socialism destroys societies
>But ask yourself: if you can't get the government to hold the corporation accountable then what makes you think the government is going to hold itself accountable?
You could argue that in any of these cases though. Either you have a monopoly that is private which of course is unaccountable, or you have a potentially unaccountable government.
Right now in the UK we have as this user says So thats kind of a 'balance of powers' but it's clear that in its current state it isn't working either.
Each party should have infrastructure as a big priority and the opposition should call this out when or if they fail at their aims.
Corbyn is right to have forced a discussion on this, also I believe UKIP have something similar in their manifesto actually (regardless of the crooked media saying they're muh far right non stop).
It's only neoliberal sellouts who are happy with the way it is right now.
Only people who take the train pay for it in the UK. You want everyone to pay for it, even those who won't use it an those who won't be able to afford it. You talk like a retarded Brit behind a memefag.
HELLO GERMAN TRYING TO CRASH OUR ECONOMY
It should be allowed to fail. Then either shut down all the rail or someone more competent will come along to fill the void and run it better. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water and let the fucking government take over.
Well yeah I mean shit's fucked man. It always is. But at best you make a deal where the government lets the monopoly exist in exchange for holding it to public account and the power to punish it, break it up, fire and imprison people etc.
I don't know how you could possibly get anything to work right if you don't spread around the culpability and the power.
>You want everyone to pay for it
Everyone is already paying for it.
They are in part nationalized and every time Branson fucks up we have to bail him out with taxpayers money.
The trains are vital for the country to function and thus the shit service and extreme prices are a harm to the nation. Even Peter Hitchens agrees on nationalizing the rail for that reason.
Worst trains in YUROP.
Corbyn will be railed by nationalized hajis
You ever work for a large corporation? Same shit.
Yes, and we should ignore these liberal economists because they've created a trans-generational debt crisis and are destroying Europe. Capitalism, and communism are the enemy.
I always assumed I would have liked Franco's Spain, was it actually a decent place to live?
The problem with that is it ignores the reality that if you allow it to fail and subsequently shut it down, you have a massive chunk of the nation's labor that's unable to get to work until the new private solution gets up and running.
The american is correct
They want to force us onto people-wagons and take away personal freedom, it's always been the case, bad enough I pay too much for road tax, t he roads are shit, and i STILL have to pay for busses and trains i don't use
But they want me living in a box in a city with a bike at most.
Yeah it sucks. But like a bandaid it's best to rip it off clean rather than slowly peel it off.
Jesus fuck I wish I could take a train fucking somewhere, fuck AMTRAK.
I almost took amtrak once because the costs vs. going by car were almost even and then I could sleep and use free wifi to put in more hours at work to turn some of the time into money.
But then it turns out it didn't quite go on the schedule I needed, and that still leaves you trying to fanangle unfamiliar bus schedules or paying for a taxi to finish the job, and really I needed to drive anyway because I had stuff I wanted to bring there that you can't really just pack like you're going for an airplane ride.
And then that was super handy when a cute girl wanted a ride back to the hotel, and when I determined you can't by liquor on sundays here unless you drive across state lines to get it.
>>Also Richard Branson has already been bailed out massively by the taxpayer so why shouldn't it be nationalized?
Wow.
>It should be allowed to fail. Then either shut down all the rail or someone more competent will come along to fill the void and run it better. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water and let the fucking government take over.
Get 'em Dagny.
>road tax
da fuk? isn't your gasoline tax over 9000% already?
t. neoliberal who supports the government making the taxpayers fund failing businesses but dogmatically cries 'socialism' at the obvious alternative
My business is doing just fine so you fucking ideological freeloaders and your corrupt government minions can just keep your fucking hands off of it. Liked some kind of Anti-Midas where everything you all touch turn to shit.
Neoliberalism is lazy-think anyway.
>reading comprehension
I never said that every single business should be nationalized, the thread is specifically about utilities and the rail in particular.
Unless you own a power plant or a rail company I'm not sure what you're screeching about.
Googled dagny, only result is Norwegian singer, what did user mean by this?
yes. there is no competition when it comes to utilities. you can't choose another power or water company if you don't like the rates or service. private sector is better when competition is possible, but public utilities are better when it is not possible. private monopolies will always be greedy.
You might be interested to notice that the government itself is incorporated. This gets freakishly complicated if you try going down that road, but it's really something you should look in to before trying to break things down into
>government good
>corporations bad