Hi Jow Forums, what do you anons tink of this film?
As Jow Forums is a christian board, what do various anons from various denominations think about this? I liked it when I saw it in the kinoplex, as it's a good film with good film elements, but I can't help think sends the wrong message.
SPOLIERS: The main priset Rodriguez is pressured into stepping on an effigy of Christ to save some locals from torture, and he does because the voice of jesus says "it's okay, let's end this suffering, I forgive you". He lives decades as an apostate but is cremated with a tiny hidden crucifix. The message is that your practices are ways of showing your faith, but the real deal is the faith in your heart and as long as you keep JC in your heart you are good.
Isn't it pretty central to Christianity that the onething to never do is deny Christ though? But Saint Peter did and he is considered to be a model of faith, so how did he make up for it?
Scorsesse has always put forward provocative questions when dealing with Christianity, so much so that most Christians just lose their shit in an indignant spurg out. On the basis that Christ does not give into temptation in last temptation I gave this film the benefit of the doubt. Remember that Garfields character in this holds onto his faith in silence and in spirit and while his flesh doesfail him it is only after Christ speaks to him and tells him that his sacrifice was for the sins he will commit as a man post the fall from grace. The fact Drivers character died without renouncing the faith is a sign that he (Garfield)would have died before giving in. My only problem with it is that one could very easily twist it into saying that once you're baptised you can go and be a degenerate and you'll still be welcomed into heaven. But that'd be a sign of a weak person, this is good, thought provoking christian kino user... >t.non demoninational christian cinophile
Isaiah Carter
I'm confused by it. It's a beautiful story if you're a secularist, or even a protestant, but from a Catholic apologist point of view, I saw a man who compromised on his beliefs to relieve the Christians extreme temporal suffering. The complete opposite of what Jesus Christ did. This movie is the antithesis of Passion of the Christ. Reject God so your flock lives another day, but in the end, not saving souls. So his spiritual sacrifice meant nothing.
Oliver Edwards
It's a little more complex than just for Christs followers, it was his own soul he would not sacrifice going to hell, the character Chichiro (however it's spelt) does what Garfield does repeatedly(in stepping on the image of Christ) and the Jesuits believe he'll be forgiven for it though don't see themselves as being able to be forgiven for it. So while as an example it does benefit those who may learn from it the story is far more concerned with whether there is any righteousness left in a soul that has renounced the faith
Zachary Miller
To be honest I have always seen the destruction of religous practices as a way to subvert religious beliefs. It is a slippery slope.
Anthony Cooper
He fails at the behest of Christ himself, the character stepping on the image of Christ is an extention of the crucifixion itself, taking the burdens of the faithful on his shoulders
Ian Phillips
thank you for your input anons, I was always of two minds with this film. It is kino from a purely cinematic standpoint, but it's message is difficult to fully understand. What do you say to the passage in the bible that states: >deny me before man and I shall deny thee Again, Peter did and more christians will agree Peter is in heaven.
interesting take user, but here is something to think about... The complete opposite of what Jesus Christ did Ferrera, the father that convinces him to apostatize and was also keeping his faith hidden thereafter says to him "Rodriguez, you see your trial as teh same as Jesus' but that's arrogant. You think what you are suffering through is the same as what Christ suffered? You can give in an save this people but Christ couldn't, as he had to die for us." Was it a positive message about we don't have to be entirely like Christ in order to be saved, that's the whole reason he had to come to die for us in the first place.
well yes, the Japs in the film were hoping to do just that "it's just a formality gaijin" was there way to make missionary work fizzle out.
But there is a theory that the voice is his own and that he is convincing himself that Christ would forgive him but he needs to be pushed into it, so he creates a narrative. Like we all do when we have an argument and remember us being much more eloquent than we were.
>t. big brained euphoric nice guy with 180 IQ and every season of Rick and Morty on blu-ray.
Lucas Reed
I view it more like a pious version of Don Juan. A man who consciously chooses to mortally sin for temporary benefit and beg for forgiveness later. So in the end the sin of rejecting Christ was not the one he should have been begging forgiveness for, and because of this, he was properly judged in the afterlife, thus his spiritual sacrifice meaning nothing in the end. When you enter these pacts of delayed virtue, you also enter in a paradox of never ending sin. The only way to get out of this paradox was from direct command from God, which is what Scorsese realized and put in the movie. So this movies lesson was about listening to a command from God, not about sacrificing your soul for your flock.
Xavier Thomas
>deny me before man and I shall deny thee Denial of your faith is a sin and all sins are equal therefore if this is beyond Christs compassion to forgive then everything is an we're all headed for damnation all we can do is have faith that God may be merciful on those of us living as close to Christs example as our cursed flesh will allow. >But there is a theory that the voice is his own user art is subjective and as such I don't out much credence into the thoughts of others, especially when they concern so sensitive a topic as faith. But in this case if he has hallucinate Christ talking to him then I would think it would make it all the more easy for him to be forgiven as it is a true failure of his human faculties, but that's just my take
Gavin Jones
>Was it a positive message about we don't have to be entirely like Christ in order to be saved, that's the whole reason he had to come to die for us in the first place. Could it be that Jesus meant that we are not like Him because we are not destined to be sacrificed like Him? Therefore seeking martyrdom is not necessary. But just because we aren't destined for martyrdom, that doesn't mean we should sin to escape martyrdom.
Jackson Williams
Which is why I included in another post that having the other Jesuit die shows the shared conviction of the pair, that without that direct interaction with Christ the character would have died under torture. Though there is something to be thought of that the Garfields character urges Drivers to renounce the faith on the beach, out of Drivers earshot of course but he does it all the same. This point I belive speaks to the myopia of many modern Christians who pass judgement on others while being equally flawed, it's a little tenuous a connection but anyone who's been part of a church in an upper middle class area will get what I'm talking about.
>christian >partaking in the electric jew you guys do a great job of making me think Christianity is a liability that cannot be decoupled for kike control.
Elijah Williams
>"Why do you believe in religion?" "Because I feel funny (in the GOOD way) when I pray to god!"
fucking christcucks
Matthew Russell
The communists snuck propaganda into film at the height of the witch hunt, why do you think we're not capable of the same thing? Also two nukes weren't.enough
Believers go to hell in my religion, and that hell is forever2. You don't understand what forever2 means? Further prove that we cannot know understand everything and that my religion is the one true religion. My god shits on yours.
Robert Butler
What is it with all these english teachers? White piggu, go home!
Jesus is the anti-thesis to kikes you fucking pleb John 2:15
Aaron Sanchez
>strong original pagan religion Sorry disappoint you but worshiping anime tiddies isn't paganism and shinto Bhuddism isn't indigenous, try again son.
Owen Wright
A part of me is starting to wonder if Jesus did some travel during those 18 years of being literally WHERE
Henry Reed
So this is nu/pol/ shitposting. We've gone wrong lads
Carter Perez
Shintoism literally accounts for 3 to 5% of their population. It's barely twice the size of Christianity.
Asher Green
Nah dude, YOU shouldn't be so mad for going to hell yourself. Stop believing and my god will grant you eternal reward instead of eternal punishment.
BTW nice depictions of Christ even though these men never saw him lmao a religion based on delusions
Caleb Bailey
>waaaaaaaah >everything I dont agree with is shitposting!
Alright, tell me why I should start believing in your god?
Sebastian Johnson
shinto makes sense though from a cosmic perspective, and who's to say god didn't send himself in human form? i've been really looking into this, and the more I do the more it seems like deities are these primeval essences that have been around since the dawn of time. like we're chess pieces on a board or some shit, and they influence us to move. i ended up watching Haxan(1922), and it gave off the same vibe. HP Lovecraft was onto something man.
Elijah Cox
so if i am reading you right, you think Rodriguez was too concerned with walking the path perfectly, realized he could never live up to the perfect life of Christ, at least can do some good for some worshippers by being a sinner himself, and realized he needed God to jump in and save him no matter what (even if he'd stayed in Europe, he would have died someday and it would take God to bring him into the clouds). So he realizes he can't be moral either way, so he does his best and asks JC to understand? is this what you think the film was saying? Wouldn't that be a Calvinist interpretation or such, what you do means nothing considering you are doomed, but God can save you and only god?
>if this is beyond Christs compassion I get what you are saying user, and forgive the fact that I know next to nothing about theology, but I swear I read some commentary from somewhere that most denominations say if you convert and then deny christ, you are done for. Am I mistaken? Isn't this Lucifer's sin in Paradise Lost, turning away from the love of God?
>hallucinate Christ yeha good point, the cycnics say it wasn't a fever dream, just him making shit up and saying "well, I'm not so bad a guy, right?" Self forgiveness in a way, which is super arrogant. But I get you that Christ's forgiveness is awesome, so maybe he will forgive an intentional act too.
that's a conundrum user, for sure. One part of me says that he never expected us to be as good as him, hence he came to die for us. If we could be as good, he would have sent us some new stone tablets. But then I too agree that if you escape martydom intentionally you have decided "oh well Christ doesn't want much from us, let's not worry too much" and you take the piss. But then a third part of me says, yeah but pisstakers and lazy cowards are forgiven too.
Ryan Torres
Probably my second favorite movie of the decade
Levi Ramirez
Movie about how Japan rejected Christcuckery. Japan is and always has been based.
And that's the closest thing they have to an indigenous religion
Angel Garcia
I'm not engaging in a discussion about Shinto, I was just ragging the red anus son of nippon for it being the best he could muster
Austin Thompson
genuine question user, but who does a Christian reconcile the fact that Jesus wasborn a jew? I know he was god made flesh, so it's irrelevant, but he still had an earthly aspect that mattered, otherwise a crucifixtion would be meaningless. Thanks user.
aren't all japs technically Shinto because you are registered at a shrine when you are born? They treat it less like a religion as we understand it but more like having a second birth certificate, but with a spiritual nature to it.
first?
don't worry user, scream all you want, swear and say the most awful things. He will forgive you that moment you ask him to. We (and he) are here when you want us.
Justin Gonzalez
god was made a jew to prove that the pharisee not only didn't have faith in god, but didn't have faith in one of their own which they claimed to be which they were not they were false jews, and are actually the egyptians. it was a triple fuck you to the fake jews.
>convert and then deny christ, you are done for I think that's pretty much it and while I do belive there is room for repentance true repentance can only be bestowed once, by its very nature. So I suppose the question one must ask is of the soul itself and it's righousness, while we may turn over what the true nature of one's soul being known only to God and it is for him to judge, I think forgiveness of repeated sin is dependent on the person who does eventually give up the sin. If I'm honest user I'm no major theologian, I simply live as close to Christs example as I can and scorn my flesh when I fail. >so maybe he will forgive an intentional act too. Nothing is unforgivable to a soul that truly seeks redemption and to be washed clean of their sins by the blood and body of Christ I guess
Zachary Bailey
Christianity is a Jew hoax fuck off kike shills
Michael Gomez
shit, the mission is much better, even if pretty fake
Kayden Anderson
I'm a Catholic and I thought Silence was a really great film. It asks a lot of really tough questions about morals and faith, and even if you disagree with Scorsese's opinion or the film's opinion, the fact that you are just thinking about these dilemmas makes it an important and interesting film about the church.
It's true that in the past people were martyred for their faith in Christ and we were taught to admire these people and their sacrifice, but I don't think many modern people would relate to them. I think the modern Christian would relate much more to the Japanese coward in this film, the man who rejects Christianity several times, and betrays the main character several times, but then keeps coming back begging for forgiveness. I know the first time he did it, I thought that was what I would have done in his situation. But the fact that he does it several times, by the end of the film you hate this guy. I think that's a powerful message to send to Christians in this day and age. Don't be like this jackass who only believes in God when it is convenient for him. If everyone who watches the film only takes away that one lesson, I think it's done a valuable service.
And the fact that the voice of Jesus is present in the film, that the silence is finally broken. That's a very powerful scene. I thought the whole film was just going to have his prayers unanswered.
So maybe Rodriguez didn't do the right thing in the end, but I don't think that's what's important. It's a film that puts more value on human life than idols. Saving a life is more important than saving a crucifix, and that sort of iconoclasm has been present in Christianity for a long time.
I think as long as you're not debasing your spirit in any deliberately evil way god will let it pass. Especially if it saves a group of people vs a wood carving;especially if they're children of god. God literally died for us. I think he'd be okay with the non-premeditated attack of a wooden effigy vs the preventable torture, and pain of people who don't have a choice in the situation. I think if it was just the priest who was being threatened it'd be a different story.
Logan Hernandez
Why is it always the Germans acting like autistic teenagers on this board? Anyone else noticed this?
Camden Martinez
I dunno man, much of this theorizing is David Icke level garbage. The jews were really Khazarians, the Pharisees were egyptians, jesus was actually from an edomite tribe or something. Apparently there weren;t any jews in the jewish holy book, apparantly
>only be bestowed once, by its very nature dunno man, that then raises the question of if Christ is limited in what he can forgive is he Christ? I dunno, it's so tricky, you are right neither of us is theologians. Maybe you are right though, that you gotta live the best you can and leave the questions alone, because at the end of the day it's up to God whether we did it right.
thanks for the input user, really great post. Onee question though, is scorcese telling us the cowardly jap is the worst example of a christian, or is he giving us the opportunity to forgive him >But the fact that he does it several times, by the end of the film you hate this guy isn't that the challenge? Rodriguez always forgave him, but we are baffled by it. interestingly, he forgives him for stamping of the plate and for abandoning his family as they burned, but then Rodriguez cannot bring himself to stamp on teh plate throughout the film, which tells me he is full of holy pride and is on a purity spiral (Rodriguez is a Jow Forumsack lol) and that he steps on it cos he realises he is trying to be as pure as Christ and he never will be. It's a layered film.
What is your opinion, as a Catholic, that denying christ is the last straw and unforgiveable? Or do you think God would forgive Rodriguez in the end?
but he is mortal and flawed (the priest), sure JC will forgive him? He tried to do it for good reasons too.
Owen Rodriguez
decide for yourself I just know cosmic deities exist;jesus came down;kikes really hate him, and today's kikes are so obvious that we're able to document them subverting. i just cross reference how many times these niggers do something related to another taboo thing, and make my assertion from there.
why would you say there are fake christians here? surely there is a debate whether god would forgive apostasy or if its too grave an act to be had?
Jack Morales
>dunno man All I'm trying to say is that repentance is seeking forgiveness with the promise you won't commit the sin again and for that you can rely on christ's forgiveness. After that I don't know
Juan Thomas
There is no reason to deny God's name. You're expected to give up everything else.
Blake Nelson
i think you western christians are still too influenced by the rigid old catholic reimagining of god that gives out pardons. god is love, of course he forgives you. but YOU won't be able to withstand his presence with all your sins weighting on your soul.
and yet you're here on Jow Forums getting your confirmation bias fill for the day.
Kevin Hernandez
the guy was an enthusiast "Therefore we ought and must constantly maintain this point, that God does not wish to deal with us otherwise than through the spoken Word and the Sacraments. It is the devil himself whatsoever is extolled as Spirit without the Word and Sacraments." -Smalcald Articles, Part 3 Article 8 the guy in the movie got tricked by Satan
Xavier Young
Rodriguez does forgive him at first, but as the film progresses you can tell he feels real contempt for this guy. And let's not forget the very real possibility that this guy probably doesn't even understand Christianity the same way you and I do. He could be just as clueless as the Japanese 'believers' who asked Rodriguez "are we in heaven now? When do we go?"
I can't speak for all Catholics, and perhaps this idea is heresy, but I don't think you can "deny Christ" with just words, or a signature, or stepping on an icon. I think it's about as absurd as Bart selling his soul to Milhouse by signing a piece of paper. I've always thought God wouldn't care about something as small and insignificant as someone stepping on an icon-- but then again the church says unbaptized people go to hell so...?
Let's just be happy that in this day and age we have some Christian kino to enjoy.
I saw this film from the Japanese perspective. I thought the Japs were right to torture the missionaries and the converts. I didn't care about all the suffering since the Jesuit invaders were clearly in the wrong. I thought the Jesuits' motives for going to Japan was quite suspect from the outset. Good on the Japs for resisting colonialism and protecting their own culture and religious practises.
Nolan Taylor
Jesus isn't some stupid depiction people try to sell. Strictly speaking, imagery of God and Jesus are blasphemous. Also, the bible is just the word on physical paper. It's ok to step on it. People wear out and buy new Bibles all the time. It's not something to never be read or studied and to be stored away in a climate controlled container.
You shouldn't lie but I think it's up to your discretion whether you feel it's worth faltering and saying you don't believe to save the lives of others. Nobody can know for sure how God "feels", but I can't condemn somebody either way. Having conviction is admirable but it's the motivation that is important. If it's about wanting glory for yourself then it's not good.
Isaac Phillips
>17:00 this movie is scorsese's attempt to kiss ass of hollywood jews because he went down lol, so true
Daniel Taylor
yes I agree, although from what I know about theology, I'd any many even insist that if you do go back and do it again, you are frgiven then too, so long as ou are sincere. It's a deep topic and i appreciate your input fren.
okay, but if he forgives all and you did it for the lives of others, aren't you all good, especally if you sincere are sorry you denied him?
>rigid old catholic reimagining of god that gives out pardons not a theologian enough to tackle this claim user, so you'll have to explain to an agnostic pleb. Are you saying you cannot bear to accept his love when you know you are a filthy sinner.
you mean the oice in the end that tells him its okay to step on jesus? what should the priest have done?
>but I don't think you can "deny Christ" with just words This. I think this is the point of the film, and the ending and even the name Silence. It is about accepting him into your heart and truly believing.
>baptism of infants Yes, but that is a sacrament, so I think the difference is that one brings you into the faith whilst trash talking Christ will never truly throw you out of the faith (so long as you beg forgiveness).
Gavin Collins
Exactly. Never seen so many timid people unafraid of a hostile environment. Timid people seem to prefer not having any accountability from what I have seen.
Luke Robinson
I always liked Scorcese's work and sincerely hope he is not a pedo like all the rest seem to be.
Joshua Lee
>i've been really looking into this, and the more I do the more it seems like deities are these primeval essences that have been around since the dawn of time. like we're chess pieces on a board or some shit, and they influence us to move. Essentially a Freudian/Jungian interpretation. Lust, war, love, etc. seem as eternal forces that are capable of influencing people and having them work under their cause; i.e., gods. In monotheism all forces (reality as such) coalesce into a single figure with which one can form a relationship.
Nolan Hernandez
this is a good point but also, when you mentioned its okay to step on the imagery, the Japs in the film have an interesting take on this. They say its just a formality, so no big deal, but Rodriguez knows this is an effort to erode the faith and turn people away from God. If a priest does it, holy shit! So yeah, from a scripture stand point, it's just an icon, but from a real world impact stand point, you help condemn the church to a slow death in Japan. It's a tricky film and I really appreciate all the imput here about it user, thanks
Jayden Johnson
>appreciate your input fren. And yours user, you have yourself a goodnight
Landon Young
Anyway, Japs are not indigenous Although it is little known to Asians, Japs and Korean are the same race
Read “The Fugu Plan”. There’s a few passages about how a select group in the Imperial Japanese government has read “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” as well as Henry Ford’s writing, and thought to use Jewish refugees from the West as a way to influence politics in America. They were wrong.
Easton Hughes
>not a theologian enough to tackle this claim user, so you'll have to explain to an agnostic pleb. Are you saying you cannot bear to accept his love when you know you are a filthy sinner. yeah, basically that's what orthos and i think trad caths believe. and it's not just the feeling of guilt, and it's especially not some sort of self criticism, but a real feeling, like if you let your beloved wife, mother, or child get hurt, that tearing guilt. When man is face to face with God, he feels that absolute love you feel for a few of your most loved ones, times billion but his earthly passions will make him incompetent to participate and that will be the torture. And since you have no mortal body anymore it's much harder to correct those passions.
Austin Johnson
Shintoism and Buddhism are two different things. Shinto is indigenous to Japan, while Buddhism isn’t. And sure, Christianity isn’t indigenous to Japan either, but the history of persecution and the underground Christian culture which grew in isolation and at times synthesized with Buddhism is interesting. Lots of hiding Mary statues amongst Kwan Yin iconography. Plus Catholicism leads to greater integration with local beliefs period, often taking local pagan deities and making them saints (Brigid). Protestant Christianity never could’ve accomplished that in Japan.
Nolan Robinson
god bless user, Christ be with you.
Samuel Williams
>Scorsese and Silence but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Chase Morris
You want to make it a double feature, pair this with “The Mission” (Robert De Niro & Jeremy Irons) or “At Play In the Fields of the Lord”.
Samuel Peterson
so you are afloat in a spiritual world and can't come to terms with God's love and turn away from it, which is hy hell is depicted as an afterlife that is free from God's love? That kind of makes sense. A self banishment to hell. But do Orthos and Trad Caths beleive that you need to accept Jesus as a prerequisite to get into heaven? Will he not straight up bar you from his love if you are a filthy fedora atheist?
Evan Turner
>Japs and Korean are the same race They are still different sub-races and you can usually tell if someone is Korean or Japanese. Pic related is titled "Pictures of the German Races".
I wouldn't say you turn away from it, you just can't stand it, it tortures you instead of making you feel ecstatic. Heaven and hell in that sense are the same place, the presence of God. We also believe God is love, he doesn't bar anyone from anything, He's constantly trying to help us and love us as we're his creation, it's us that won't be able to give him what WE think we should give him, we'll feel tortured for our evil and darkness. As for accepting Jesus, well that kinda goes without saying, you can't love your mother without accepting that she exist. As for atheists that is their problem, that is not the same problem for those that never knew about Christ. "If you had been blind, you would have had no sin. But now you say 'We see,' so your sin remains" (John 9:41)
Robert Butler
thanks user, that's really helpful, nice to get an Orthodox perspective.
