Has this been refuted yet?

>has this been refuted yet?
Your shitty image? yes, of course, people where posing this question since the beginning of religion.
As to the question of evil and god as a whole, no, the debate is ongoing but it has passed far your simplistic shitty images, even the proponents of the idea that evil is the strongest reason to not believe in God would cringe at that graph.

How isn't he, you can love someone yet still allow them the freedom to live their life without trying to control their every action, if humans choose to do evil acts that is their free choice, god may have the power to control them but what would be the point in creating us if he was just going to take control of us and direct our lives only how he saw fit, then we would be nothing more than robots acting out his will.

I don't believe in god, but that argument really is not a good argument against his existence.

jewsus didn't exist

So you want to exist in a realm of pure pleasure? Idk sounds boring and gay. Suffering is good for the growth of the soul.

Here is the flaw.

God cannot create a universe with Free Will but not with evil. They are two parts of the same concept, like up and down. In order for Free Will to exist evil must also exist.

That does not mean that God isn’t all powerful because all you’re looking at here is linguistic nuance. It’s like saying “If God can’t create a universe with up but not down then he isn’t all powerful.” Up and down are connected concepts you cannot have one without the other. Free Will and evil are connected and mutually dependent concepts. In order for us to have the freedom to make choices then we must have the ability to choose wrongly. That’s an intrinsic property of Free Will.

For a long time God did exist in a universe with no Free Will. There was nothing at all. But in creating the angels God first created beings with free will. The difference is that when angels sin they are brutally punished with immediate condemnation because they were created solely to serve God. People are different in that we were created to love God and not serve him, and that (like evil) requires Free Will.

So long story short, pic related is why the picture is incorrect from a theological standpoint.

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>Then God is not good / God is not loving
I think this is probably God or Gods if they exist. I don't need to refute that.

>then God is not good/God is not loving

based on what?

you never existed. then you got given the gift of existence. even if you only exist for 2 days, then get raped by a gorilla and thrown off a cliff, it's better than never having existed.

Humanity that has chosen good of it own will is valuable to him. We have trouble understanding this as we are mortal.

evils are manifestations of imperfect beings
perfect beings have no free will because they are a continuation of god
therefore imperfect beings, in order to allow free will, necessitate the existence of evil

>tough love
If you told me to my face cancer and thing like that where "though love", I would show you the same tough love by punching your lights out

This is constantly refuted. Even by nonautists.

Ok faggot I hope you get cancer than tell me how much you love suffering

God can't create a world with free will and without evil because that is not possible. The two contradict. How can I have the choice to do what ever I like but not evil acts.

This image is bunk

>has this been refuted yet?
Yes, mankind is the root of all evil, as seen by all the wars and despair we have caused, but the Lord loves us too much to wipe us out, and in effect destroy all evil. Which then brings you to the "Could God have created a universe without these" box, to which the obvious answer is yes, which leaves you in the "why didn't he" box which is where most believers are stuck on.

Nobody knows why God does the things he does. How could we? He's omniscient! If we were able to comprehend His mindset then He wouldn't be much of a God.

If God was real I'd rather live with out free will than dealing with the punishment for a sin I didn't commit(Adam and eve)

If he doesn't use that "amazing mindset" to benefit his creation he's not really worth worshiping is he?

if you don't have free will, you are no better than a toy robot dog.

God wants us to come to him on our own terms. He wouldn't force anyone in his presence for all eternity that doesn't want to be there.

All you have to do to avoid that punishment is accept his free gift of grace through Jesus Christ.

>If you told me to my face cancer and thing like that where "though love", I would show you the same tough love by punching your lights out

I see. Yes, you are quite intimating. However, facing our own mortality is part of the human experience. For some, traumatic events crystallize a perspective for those things which are most important in life. We are all going to die at some point.

Yes, it has. Since antiquity. Read something besides a comic book occasionally.

Again I'd rather live with out free will than deal with the horrible punishments God has in store for any one who so much as has a different oppinion

I disagree. You are making an argument out of emotion. It's like if I were to say "if my daddy doesn't use that 'amazing shit-ton of cash money' that he has to buy me a Ferrari then he is not worth loving is he?"

no its more like, little kids get raped and killed everyday. people are born to live lives in pure misery, to no fault of their own, yet God has the power to stop that but doesn't.

Yes, many times

Why don't you read something besides an old book of jew fairy tales

>If God was real I'd rather live with out free will than dealing with the punishment for a sin I didn't commit(Adam and eve)

Would you consider yourself free of any other sin? While Original Sin gets thrown about a great deal, could you hold yourself up to a standard of action that would be considered peerless and just?

If God cannot simultaneously create a universe of free willed individuals, that also loves, then he is not all powerful either. You understand neither love, nor omnipotence.

Said no real historian ever.

Good cannot exist in our minds without evil

Job asked: “God, why would You, who are perfect, create a universe filled with so much that is evil?”

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the whirlwind, saying “WOULD YOU PREFER I HAD NOT CREATED YOUR UNIVERSE, EVIL AS IT IS? WOULD YOU PREFER TO BE VOID AND EMPTINESS?”

“No!” said Job. “I would prefer to live in a universe that was perfect and just!”

“I CREATED SUCH A UNIVERSE,” said God. “IN THAT UNIVERSE, THERE IS NO SPACE, FOR SPACE TAKES THE FORM OF SEPARATION FROM THINGS YOU DESIRE. THERE IS NO TIME, FOR TIME MEANS CHANGE AND DECAY, YET THERE MUST BE NO CHANGE FROM ITS MAXIMALLY BLISSFUL STATE. THE BEINGS WHO INHABIT THIS UNIVERSE ARE WITHOUT BODIES, AND DO NOT HUNGER OR THIRST OR LABOR OR LUST. THEY SIT UPON GOLDEN THRONES AND CONTEMPLATE THE PERFECTION OF ALL THINGS.

YET I ALSO CREATED YOUR UNIVERSE, THAT YOU MIGHT LIVE. TELL ME, JOB, IF I UNCREATED YOUR WORLD, WOULD YOU BE HAPPIER? OR WOULD YOU BE DEAD, WHILE FAR AWAY IN A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE INCORPOREAL BEINGS SAT ON THEIR GOLDEN THRONES REGARDLESS?”

“I would prefer to be one of those perfect beings on their golden thrones.”

“WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR YOU TO BE SUCH A BEING? THEY HAVE NO BODIES, NO EMOTIONS, NO DESIRES, NO LANGUAGE. WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR ME TO CREATE A VERSION OF YOU WITHOUT BODY EMOTION DESIRE OR LANGUAGE, VERSUS TO CREATE SUCH A BEING BUT NOT HAVE IT BE YOU AT ALL? IS A VERSION OF YOU WHO IS INFINITELY WISE STILL YOU? A VERSION OF YOU WHO IS A WICKED IDOLATOR? A VERSION OF YOU WHO IS EXACTLY LIKE NOAH, IN EVERY WAY? THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE COSMIC UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.”

“Huh?”

“THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF HOW MANY UNIVERSES HAVE A JOB. THERE ARE VARIOUS CREATURES MORE OR LESS LIKE YOU. IF I UNCREATED YOU AND YOUR WORLD OF SUFFERING, THEY WOULD REMAIN, AND YOU WOULD DIE. WOULD THIS BE A FAVOR TO YOU?”

No it hasn't, and the fact that the bible is nothing but stolen stories from much older and more benevolent religions means Christianity cannot possibly be correct. Hinduism is more legitimate from a historical perspective, you can't be christian without childish levels of willful ignorance.

you know you can be all powerful without exercising that power, right?

It wouldn't be freewill if God had created a universe that choice didn't exist.
Absolute state of atheist "arguments".

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And the body is not the soul.

“I still don’t understand. Certainly I, who exist, want to continue existing. But instead of creating one perfect universe and some flawed universes, couldn’t you just have created many perfect universes?”

“TELL ME, JOB, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR RIGHT AND LEFT HANDS?”

“Uh…one is on my right, and the other is on my left. And they’re mirror images of each other.”

“I AM BEYOND SPACE. TO ME THERE IS NEITHER LEFT NOR RIGHT NOR MIRRORED REFLECTION. IF TWO THINGS ARE THE SAME, THEY ARE ONE THING. IF I CREATED TWO PERFECT UNIVERSES, I WOULD ONLY HAVE CREATED ONE UNIVERSE. IN ORDER TO DIFFERENTIATE A UNIVERSE FROM THE PERFECT UNIVERSE, IT MUST BE DIFFERENT IN ITS SEED, ITS SECRET UNDERLYING STRUCTURE.”

“Then create one perfect universe, and some universes whose structures have tiny flaws that no one will ever notice.”

“I DID. I CREATED MYRIADS OF SUCH UNIVERSES. WHEN I HAD EXHAUSTED ALL POSSIBLE UNIVERSES WITH ONE FLAW, I MOVED ON TO UNIVERSES WITH TWO FLAWS, THEN UNIVERSES WITH THREE FLAWS, THEN SO ON, AN ENTIRE GARDEN OF FLAWED UNIVERSES GROWING ALONGSIDE ONE ANOTHER.”

Is this RC car living? Without free will, you would be no better than it. You would be a machine that just followed orders.

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That would be a better dad than the one we have that leaves us on the planet alone and never interacts with us
Isn't it strange that there haven't been any profits since the dawn of recording technology?

What is this strawman fanfic?

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“Including mine.”

“YOUR WORLD IS AT THE FARTHEST EDGES OF MY GARDEN,” God admitted, “FAR FROM THE BRIGHT CENTER WHERE EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND SIMPLE. THERE IS A WORLD MADE OF NOTHING BUT BLISS, WITH A GIANT ALEPH IN THE CENTER. THERE IS ANOTHER WORLD MADE OF NOTHING BUT BLISS WITH A GIANT BET IN THE CENTER. AND SO ON, BUT MAKE A MILLION MILLION WORLDS LIKE THOSE, AND YOU START NEEDING TO BECOME MORE CREATIVE. YOU NEED MORE AND MORE STRATAGEMS TO SEPARATE WORLDS FROM ONE ANOTHER. WORLDS WHERE INCREDIBLY BIZARRE THINGS HAPPEN AS A MATTER OF COURSE. WORLDS WHERE RANDOM COMBINATIONS OF SYLLABLES INVOKE DIVINE POWERS. AND THE MORE SUCH THINGS I ADD, THE MORE CHANCE THAT THEY TEND TOWARD EVIL. YOUR WORLD IS VERY FAR FROM THE CENTER INDEED. IT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A VAST WASTE, WHERE NOTHING ELSE GROWS. ALL OF THE WORLDS THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PLANTED THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOMINATIONS OF WICKEDNESS. BUT BY COINCIDENCE PILED UPON COINCIDENCE, YOURS WAS NOT. YOURS WILL GROW INTO A THING OF BEAUTY THAT WILL GLORIFY MY HOLY NAME.”

“It will?”

“GENESIS 1:31. I LOOKED AT THE WORLD, AND I SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD. I BEHELD ADAM KADMON, THE SEED OF YOUR WORLD, AND SAW THAT IT WAS A GOOD SEED. THAT IT WOULD GROW INTO MORE GOOD THAN EVIL. THAT IT DESERVED A PLACE IN MY GARDEN, BESIDE THE MILLION MILLION OTHER SEEDS THAT WOULD GROW INTO OTHER WORDS, SO THAT AS MUCH GOODNESS AS POSSIBLE COULD BE INSTANTIATED IN THE COSMOS.”

“God,” said Job, “what about me?”

“WHAT ABOUT YOU?”

“All my children are dead. All my wealth is gone. I’m covered in boils. And you’re telling me, basically, that the reason I’m covered in boils is so that you can have one universe where I’m covered in boils, and another universe where I’m not covered in boils, and then you’ll have one more universe than if you committed to not covering me in boils?”

>no its more like, little kids get raped and killed everyday. people are born to live lives in pure misery, to no fault of their own, yet God has the power to stop that but doesn't.

It's still an argument out of emotion. How do you know he doesn't have a secret master plan that will essentially atone and for all the evil that your describing?

simple god is not all good retard idk why people would think so god is a warrior, god is an allpowerful beast good and bad are mere preferences for god

>leaves us on the planet alone and never interacts with us
Only because you're blind and deaf.

I made profit last year. WTF are you talking about?

“NOT EXACTLY. I DO NOT SPECIFICALLY MAKE EVERY DECISION ABOUT BOILS. I CREATE THE SEEDS OF UNIVERSES, WHICH GROW ACCORDING TO THEIR SECRET STRUCTURE. BUT IT IS TRUE THAT I COULD HAVE LIMITED MYSELF TO CREATING UNIVERSES WHERE NO ONE EVER BECAME COVERED IN BOILS, AND I DID NOT DO SO. FOR THE UNIVERSES WHERE SOME PEOPLE GET COVERED IN BOILS ALSO HAVE MYRIADS OF WONDERS, AND JOYS, AND SAINTS, AND I WILL NOT DENY THEM EXISTENCE FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE COVERED IN BOILS.”

“How many wonders and joys and saints is one case of boils worth, God?”

“BE CAREFUL, JOB. I HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH ABRAHAM BEFORE YOU. HE ASKED WHETHER I WOULD SPARE MY JUDGMENT ON SODOM LEST FIFTY RIGHTEOUS MEN SHOULD SUFFER. WHEN I AGREED, HE PLED FOR FORTY, THIRTY, TWENTY, AND TEN. BUT BELOW TEN HE DID NOT GO, SO I DESTROYED THE CITY. AND IF I WOULD NOT RESTRAIN MYSELF FROM DESTROYING FOR THE SAKE OF A HANDFUL OF RIGHTEOUS MEN SUFFERING, HOW MUCH LESS I SHOULD RESTRAIN MYSELF FROM CREATING.”

“So I should just sit here and suffer quietly?”

“UNTIL YOU DIE, AND YOUR SOUL IS REMOVED FROM THE WORLD, AND I CAN GRANT IT ETERNAL BLISS WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT ANY OF THIS.”

“That’s not a fucking lot of consolation, God.”

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the whirlwind, saying: “HAVE YOU BEHELD THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH? SEEN ITS FOOTINGS AND ITS CORNERSTONE? WATCHED AS THE SONS OF GOD ALL SANG TOGETHER AND THE MORNING STARS SHOUTED FOR JOY? HAVE YOU SEEN THE DOORS OF THE SEA? THE CHAINS OF THE PLEIADES AND ORION’S BELT? THE LIONS, THE RAVENS, THE YOUNG OF THE DOE AND BEAR? BEHOLD THE BEHEMOTH, WHICH I MADE BESIDE YOU, AND THE LEVIATHAN WHO RESIDES IN THE SEA. CAN YOU SAY THAT ALL THESE WONDERS SHOULD NOT BE, SO THAT YOU COULD AVOID A CASE OF BOILS? SHALL I SMITE THEM FOR YOU? SPEAK, AND I SHALL END THE WORLD WITH A WORD.”

And as He spoke, the whirlwind took form, and Job saw all of these things, the boundaries of the Earth and the gateways of the Heavens, the myriad animals from Leviathan down to the smallest microbe, the glory of the lightning and the gloom of the deepest caves, the pyramids of Egypt and the pagodas of China. And he knew more surely than he had ever known anything before that God could end all of them with a word, and he knew that the existence of all of them, every single one, depended on the same seed that had given him a case of boils.

And Job said “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes. But…why couldn’t you have told me this before? Why did I have to suffer in ignorance?”

“YOUR WORLD IS AT THE EDGES OF MY GARDEN. IF NOT FOR COINCIDENCE PILED UPON COINCIDENCE, IT WOULD NEVER BLOSSOM INTO GOODNESS, AND SO COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CREATED. YOUR IGNORANCE OF MY PURPOSE BEGINS A CHAIN OF COINCIDENCES WHICH WILL GROW AND GROW UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD, WHEN IT WILL COME TO FRUITION. THAT PURPOSE IS NOW COMPLETE. GO, AND REGAIN EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LOST, BUT TELL NOBODY WHAT I HAVE TOLD YOU.”

“But…I told everybody I was going to ask You about the purpose of evil. When they want to know what You answered, what should I tell them?”

“TELL THEM I SAID ‘GO FISH’.”

>How do you know he doesn't
Because they don't know and they don't care to know. They'd rather live in their hyper-emotional hubris of superiority.

Yes I am free of all sin. prove me wrong.

At least that race car doesn't have to suffer with sickness and heartache

It's to test us. And the wisdom is that while he knows what we would do, he still allows our existence to run its course to allow our deeds and worship or lack thereof to manifest for the sake of indisputable justice in judgment.

Then cease existing.

The premise is wrong. You're assuming God's intention is for good and love to prevail. It could just be a sandbox with a set of rules. We humans do what we want in here and God will judge us at our death.

It also doesn't derive happiness or joy though. It just is. It sounds like you want to die. You can't have good without bad.

Yes, in the book of Job. But you edgy atheists don't actually bother reading the Bible.

>he's caught in verbal descriptors and logic games
>he thinks that if he can prove a contradiction in God based upon definitions that he himself has foisted upon Him
user...

Yes, it's logically problematic.

Can an all powerful being draw a square circle?

No?

Guess said being isn't "all powerful" anymore, even if it is logically impossible.

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>That would be a better dad than the one we have that leaves us on the planet alone and never interacts with us
So you are agreeing that it is possible for an omnipotent and all loving God to exist?

>Isn't it strange that there haven't been any profits since the dawn of recording technology?
This is actually explained in Christian teachings. We were told that because Christ had already come there won't be supernatural happenings like until Armageddon.

Sure, but this doesn't explain innocent children getting cancer or natural disasters.

Karma and the samsara. Parents learn and grow from it as well. Personal soul growth.

He doesn’t know everything and wants us to have true freewill. Satan is a whiny brat. Go back.

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>profits since the dawn of recording technology
The Sleeping Prophet.

>Yes I am free of all sin. prove me wrong.

So you say. This is not for me to prove.

This. It's funny how atheists feverantly berate theists for believing in a God "without any evidence" when they themselves don't actually have any evidence that He doesn't exist.

We're not at all different the more you think about it

100% this

>won't be any happenings till Armageddon
More like people won't be stupid enough to fall for it again. Also 2019 sure is a long time, who beenifits from the wait? Also what is God doing in the mean time taking a shit?

>There's a universal definition of evil
Hahaha

Free will user, do you want God to make robots instead of mankind with souls?

Also provatio boni proves evil isnt real

This is basic 1.0 atheist garbage, user, go back to Jow Forumscuckeddit

>who beenifits from the wait?
The ones who want redemption
And patiently waiting. Infinitely patient.

God created humans to have freewill. Without the ability to commit evil there is no freewill.

The more time goes by the more people who will not receive redemption

>Isn't it strange that there haven't been any profits since the dawn of recording technology?
Because Jesus is the last one. Muslims believe Muhammad is the last one. You should ask this question to the jews, not Christians (or muslims).

Yes he can, God can do whatever he wants. He can suspend the ordinary rules of physics and logic. This is exactly what miracles are, theologically speaking. How? We literally can't know because it's beyond human understanding. God can say "A= not-A" if he so pleases.

The truth is that Christians believe everything will be okay in the afterlife, that in the end, all will be okay. The entire Christian message is that Christ underwent supreme suffering to reach supreme bliss. It's the core of the Christian story. Without suffering there is no Christianity. Of course atheists don't like this explanation, but it's the only one.

Another option:
Just because God knows the outcome, doesn't mean that others would believe him if he said it was that way.
After all, the Devil rebelled, right? So leaving the world is to go its own way is the empirical proof that humans/the devils world are pretty terrible.

take it away im so tired of doing stupid shit

We've been in the Samsara so long it goes without saying we've all committed some crime against one another. Karma and redemption will solve it. Like I said. God is infinitely patient and will let us "play" in our sandbox as long as it takes.

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Good and evil are illusions of the subjective mind (Man). In the context of God it's more of a natural struggle to refine humanity as a growing organism. Struggle is the fundamental force that gives life meaning.

Then give yourself over to the Lord. The desert Monks like Anthony the Great had the right idea.

It presupposes that evil exists, but good and evil are human concepts which have no relationship to the fundamental workings of the universe.

>love means turning the world into a playground
NO.

You're avoiding my question. Do you agree that it is logically possible for an all loving and all powerful God to exist despite there is evil in the world.

But to answer your other remarks

>More like people won't be stupid enough to fall for it again.
Another plausible theory, I tend to refrain from applying logic to analyze omnipotent beings. Its just illogical to apply logic to a man who can turn water to wine. I don't k ow what kind of answer peopek expect when they do that

>Also 2019 sure is a long time, who beenifits from the wait?
I agree, it benifits absolutely no one, but as is the case in Christianity you won't always understand God's reasonings. He's simply too smart for us to comprehend Him.

tpbp

No

This argument doesn't work because the Bible, the word of God in human words, clearly delineates between good and evil. Surely God knows a thing or two about the fundamental workings of the universe.

Yes it is possible. For all I know zues could be the true god

Paganism was a rudimentary way to explain the extremely complex Source.
All religions are trying to explain this same God. Some poorly. And needed correcting.

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>Yes it is possible.
Great! I just hope OP and all the other fedoras read my argument and think twice before posting another half-baked shill thread

>it's also possible that zeus might've existed
Well, I don't have any proof that says that he doesn't.

>word of God in human words
You said it yourself. It's a folly to assume the Word of God can be transcribed perfectly by man. He tried His best to explain it to us
Rereading the Old Testament it's more clear to me God is trying to explain complex things like sanitation and rules of war to desert tribals.

Cancer and disasters aren’t evil by nature. It’s not something that my post was trying to explain.

Personally I don’t have a good answer for you on those two beyond that I don’t necessarily think they are bad. The world we live on has limited resources and a limited amount of population that can be sustained. Mechanisms such as disease and cataclysm provide a balance to our growth.

That’s really more of my biological side though. As far as theology goes I don’t have a good reason that God chose cancer over a mechanism that entailed less suffering, such as just limiting our ability to bear children to three.

>Seriously guys, stop pooping where you eat and wash you hands.
Also watch out for ham and shellfish, you don't have the wherewithal to deal with that stuff properly yet.

I specifically added that part because it's indeed impossible for humans to know exactly what God meant. The Old Testament is very tricky for example. But the New Testament, by contrast, is very clear. The main thing Christians are supposed to do, is love your neighbour as you love yourself. Evidently, this is an example of a morally good thing - no matter how you slice it. God (through Jesus) explicitly says THIS IS GOOD. I was replying to a Russian user who said "good and evil are just human concepts." This is not the case.

The answer, I think, is that Christianity needs suffering to work. It's the entire core of the Christian faith. Jesus underwent the worst suffering imaginable, even though he is literally without sin, as innocent as you can possibly get. Suffering is a necessary ingredient in Christianity. There's not much more to it.

Yes, you’re trying to anthropomorphize god. Your pic is a straw man. I’ll post this again when some other shill uses this for another slide thread in 2 weeks

Exactly. They had no concept of any of that.
I don't know how atheists can pretend to be "intellectuals" while applying our modern, God-given, knowledge to literal desert savages.

I only have one question. Me being a parent would never allow my children to play in the backyard if there were a rabid wolf within the gate. Every chance I got I would try to kill that wolf so my children could play safely. Why would God allow Satan who is a thousand times more dangerous than a wolf, anywhere near his most precious creation?