I have noticed that one of the biggest cancers in the mind of collectivist people is to base their "ideas" on the alleged results they would have. They see their model, for example Marxism, as the tool to reach the Utopia in their minds. This has several problems, for example: - It is extremely arrogant, and in a way pseudoscientific. It assumes that their ideas are the formula to the utopia. - It gives relevance to the final goal, which in the mind of the average vermin will justify the means, no matter how authoritarian or immoral they are. - It assumes that the world is capable of sustaining utopias. It seems to forget that the world is a very harsh place, nature is not friendly, the natural state of everything is decay and for life, death. They think that the problem is purely due to temporary circumstances, basically a "human construct" in their mind.
This is how collectivists systems have emerged (Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba...), where the foolish promise of a perfect future justified brutality. This is how all these spoiled brats we have in western countries preach and defend Marxist ideas. They show no problem in justifying taking things from people they do not like, they see no problem in being destructive. They are capable of openly trying to force their political religion on others, and they feel all proud and righteous about it. Yes, if I believed in a Utopia, the way they do, maybe I would do the same. Which is why it is a fucking problem.
Utopias are not real, they will never be, our universe is not an Utopia, no matter how hard we try to steer our course. Perhaps it is about time we accept it.
Same for our current democratic system swinging between different retarded failed ideologies with a complete disregard for cause and effect, only filling the pockets of mentally ill faggots in the process
Ian Lopez
agreed.
Kevin Cook
Well, the powerful never had it easier to be irresponsible, at least morally. After all, they do the will of the people! The fact that so many people understand democracy as the will of the majority (not as a system where individual freedom is respected), and that they are all proud of it, also says a lot about the situation.
Brayden Harris
>They see their model, for example Marxism, as the tool to reach the Utopia in their minds.
incorrect. they see their model, particularly marxism, as a way by which they may artificially raise themselves above their betters, to be the tyrants they always dreamed to be. they covet power because they could not find any in themselves by treading the path of deep contemplation, internal assessment and self improvement.
leftist 'men' have the musculature of anorexic high school girls for a reason.
Thomas Baker
Utopians are the biggest cancer in all of history. There is currently a plague of it in the West, they’re everywhere. Grand delusions of world domination, power, monopolies, equality, freeing all the animals. Pick your poison. Everyone thinks they’re Superman and none of them have stopped to do any self reflection.
Hunter Foster
>Perhaps it is about time we accept it. and then what? Your dream of the inevitable dystopian scenario of total death, destruction and despair? no thanks. because that's what sounds arrogant and pseudoscientific to me!
>will justify the means, no matter how authoritarian or immoral they are. utopia needs to be an utopia for everyone living inside it, or it's not utopia per definition.
all the collective systems you mentioned were only poor attempts to implement communism, they all failed because they could not get rid of a hierarchic system because it's embedded in human nature to form hierarchies.
Let me say I agree that it's not possible to reach an utopic state and/or sustain it.
But do you think it's futile to strive for perfection even though it can never be reached?
Honestly you sound very frustrated, bitter and tired.
Sebastian Nguyen
I agree. But I also think that a considerable portion of those are like that because they think they are right, that they carry the truth. Sort of like islamist fundamentalists. I am pretty sure they are capable of suicide-bombing because they believe they are doing the will of God, and that they will be rewarded with a paradise. They think they are the good guys. It is that, or that they are braindead. I know not what is terribler.
Evan Cook
all you have done by now is position yourself on the opposite side of the argument against utopists.
I hope you know that, if you don't provide a third aliternative to this argument, this makes you the opposite of an utopist.
If you don't want utopia, what is it you want?
Tyler Nelson
>and then what? We work in cooperation with human nature instead of against it.
Nolan Johnson
>We work in cooperation with human nature instead of against it. but why laws then? why society? human nature is more then eat, drink, fuck and sleep. Maybe not for you but for a lot of people feel that there is more to them than instincts.
You just throw out a fancy phrase without deeper meaning.
Lucas Watson
You do everything in your hand to make the world a better place, without trying to impose your views on others by force. On any one, not even a single individual. Morality, ethics, personal charity, being kind to others, those are the things we can do. That doesn't mean you have to be selfless. Not using violence against others is enough. From another perspective: stop being fucking arrogant. Your worldview could be wrong in many aspects (mine too), so don't try your luck forcing it to others.
You seem like a leftist, leftists like talking about rights. I think there is only one "fundamental right", which is the right to be left alone, in peace. Anything else can be abstracted from that.
Kayden Gonzalez
Depends on the laws and country but many are written because it allows us to live in a society, it’s the only way we can live in a society.
Zachary Jones
>the right to be left alone, in peace what a joke. you probably think a hermit lifestyle is the natural condition of man, you are just wrong. man can't live without society and neither can you. your "fundamental right" is a childish dream.
go leave your material belongings behind and go live on an island and then you tell me how much you love your only one right of being left alone.
you sound like a kid sorry.
Thomas Peterson
social behavior is more than an instinct, law and society is not a direct consequence of human nature.
that was my point
Ryan Rodriguez
Whatever, then I will be a kid, if you say so. In the end, it does not matter if I am wrong. The essential difference between you and me, is that you are much more convinced of your own bullshit, than I am of mine. You think you have the moral authority to impose on others.
Daniel Allen
maybe I am more educated and therefore I can be more confident in my own knowledge because I can know it is scientifcally backed up.
you have an inferiority complex.
YOU started this fkn thread looking for attention.
I dont see any utopy thread here besides yours.
now who is imposing his shit on whom?
Jaxon Kelly
you smear dirt on people who want to change to the better and contribute nothing yourself. even better you critisize others for trying.
Matthew Morgan
I am not imposing anything because you can simply ignore it, critizice, or ridicule it. Imposing it would be burning shit on the streets, rallying for a political party (or making my own and trying to "seize" power), ... You absolutely should try to better -yourself-. Either you are trying to manipulate what I say, or you do not understand it.
Well, after all, you are "confident". Another "I know better". Most of people is like you, did you know that too? It is the main problem with authoritarian people, and the very reason I started this thread.
You are proving exactly what I was describing.
Alexander Brooks
My point is that it’s cause and effect. We create environments that allow us to work on new projects because we freed ourselves from behaviors that were hindering us. It’s been a process that has been happening since before written history, in rule following societies at least. We can create environments that are productive or create environments that are hell. Utopians wish to create the former but always end up with hell because they forget why we have certain rules in place.
Benjamin Rivera
again you are not a closed of entity. "yourself" is part of society. so bettering yourself also means bettering society.
>Most of people is like you, did you know that too? so you know "most of the people" in the world? are Tom from myspace?
my problem is that because of your inferiority complex, you feel the need to hate on people who try to strive for a better society and discuss it with other people.
try to think what society has provided you and what you are giving back to it.
I want to give back but not by consuming.
Again, what are you if not anti-utopian? you need us to define yourself, but we dont need you.
Blake Morales
per definition utopia is the productive environment and dystopia is the opposite.
you are mixing up words and meanings.
Adam Smith
I can see where you're coming from because the idea of a perfect society existing is impossible, but surely a realistic utopia could be created. One in which most of the people in it feel happy and fulfilled. I find it a bit defeatist to say that people could never come close, and that we shouldn't even try to improve anything.
Sebastian Butler
Now you speak like a drone. Societies are abstractions useful for studying populations. Or you are saying that there is a hive mind? Maybe I am simply a cripple that can not communicate with the others. Am I missing a whole world out there? I want to know more about it. It sounds fascinating. A part of society... All I have known is my individuality, and the ones I love, and my will to be kind to others. To do it myself, of course, to other individuals.
Again, maybe I am lacking a basic sense, like a blind man in a world of sighted people. Do you use pheromones to be a part of society? What gland am I missing?
Eli Nguyen
That's more of a general ideologue thing. The free hand of the invisible market is no less of an ideologue's happy dream.
Jonathan Harris
I think what Spainguy brings up about being left alone is that no other person has a right to your sovereign body, self, or spirit. You ethically can't make me do something I don't want, which is why slavery is bad. This implies but does not state that society is made up of individuals. When we see your memeflag, we get the feeling that you want to impose some kind of order on us that we won't like. If you don't like the speed limit in your town, move to a different one and choose the society you want to live in.
Benjamin Wright
Yes, that is what I meant, my man. Thanks for explaining it in a different way.
Levi Allen
Utopias don’t exist because people are not perfect and they’re all different. We can create productive and happy environments the best we can for the time, based around the people that live there, but we will never ever have a utopia.
What I have been referring to are utopians, people who believe utopias are real, possible, and that they will be the bringers of this new, perfect world. Those are people who believe they’re being productive but end up becoming brainwashed by their own delusions. They bring nothing but chaos, destruction, and unhappiness to everyone. They allow themselves to do horrible things because they’re convinced they’re morally right. There are so many examples of this in the last century alone and I’d rather not see those mistakes made again.
Joshua Ramirez
No problem. Besides, I hate commies because I'm a farmer, and we are always the first ones that get shot after the revolution.
Matthew Ramirez
Man, how the fuck can anyone be any sort of ideological and not be bitter, frustrated, and tired?
Justin Jackson
Riding the tiger/wave. It's just a matter of ideals to strive toward, not complaining about how it isn't that way yet.
Isaiah Wood
Of course they kill the farmers, because they know better! You dumb peasant, don't you see that they totally have a master plan? Do not get in its way!
Cameron White
They will not use the word "utopia", that usually implies skepticism towards it. The people who "unironically" believe in utopias do not think of it as such, they believe that the natural state of the world is that, happiness, abundance, no poverty, no suffering. Magical men from happy land. In a gum drop house on lolly pop lane. And of course, they do not think that they should -individually- try to make the world more like that (which would be absolutely honorable in my opinion, in case it was not clear). They believe they are right enough to become the tyrants who will stop other tyrants from allegedly preventing the world to become their pink chocolate universe.
>They believe they are right enough to become the tyrants who will stop other tyrants from allegedly preventing the world to become their pink chocolate universe. so you think somebody should prevent them from becoming said tyrants? and that would be you, by making a post like this?
you are either a misanthrop, a nihilist or a dystopian because you damn everyone who wants to build a better world not only for themselves but for others. what I would call altruistic behaviour you call imposing will on someone else.
If you cant see the future, meaning that you dont know what the REALITY will be in the future, you might as well treat is as what it might become.
I think by now it's clear that i'm not an utopian but I am dreamer and I think human progress needs dreams to happen.
but still all you propose is that its better to expect a nightmare than to work for a dream.
