UBP > UBI

both are retarded

If you live in a socialist states that charge 70% taxes, the state must provide you a nice work and give you a decent minimum wage, and a decent pension if you are too old to work, and free healtcare plus a ribbon or two.

If you live in a liberal state with very low taxes, you must be free to build your own shelter and grow your own vegetables, and sell your own vegetables (or whatever you do to live) without a fucking loicense.

Both socialist EU and liberal USA are converging in high taxes, high regulations and no benefits in return.

no, and no real interest either. cause its still socialism and that retarded. we can think about such a program when we're facing a real crisis like WW2.
until then we should simply expand mandatory military service to all, men and women. A minimum of 1 year, with the choice to work in old peoples homes or simply cleaning streets for one year in an attempt to make the people value the country more.

Socialist states run out of rich people after taxing them and money after all the poor people migrate there

Liberal states get fucked when corporations buy everything and out-compete you

That's why there is convergence
Regulations are to prevent drop in quality from everyone trying to undercut economy-of-scale
High taxes are to pay for all the poor people who can freely come to liberal country

The current system simply does not work.
It is not possible to ignore ethics and let people starve because public will not accept this policy

I completely approve
This will never be accepted by Romandie voting block either
This does nothing for all the non-citizens

>with the choice to work in old peoples homes
This is the only reason it could pass a vote.
In 20 years
When it's far too late

Can you even imagine living your entire life with no goals? No aspirations? Every day is Groundhog Day that never changes. No sense of purpose or accomplishment? Just a useless consumer. Why would anybody want this?

What will you do when Jews disrupt your scheme?

That's the whole point.
People who are happy to live like animals can now waste away "in dignity" while costing less to society

How?
How can they disrupt it?
More importantly so what?
Making the scheme for them to disrupt will already have a positive impact on society
>Burn that bridge when we get to it

>people value the country more
>socialism is retarded
Why would I value anything in a Free Market society? Values,princples and morals gets in the way of making money.

> trusting some billionaire jew with my welfare

>Values,princples and morals gets in the way of making money.
Values principals and morals are needed for a society.
Society is needed for a bigger market
Bigger market means more money

How are you so shortsighted?

Are you planning to do nothing and live off the state?

oh i totally agree, i'll take it one step further, if you live off the state you have no rights to vote, protest, assemble, or own weapons
just solved poverty and welfare fraud in the us and among minority populations.

The problem isn't thinking of a good idea that fixes the situation by removing the undesirable individuals

The problem is finding a solution which the general population would vote for

Can you phrase your suggestion in a way as to be supported by average Bernie supporter?
One step at a time user.

>Instead of free money replace all welfare with free goods
>Call it Universal Basic Provisions

Exactly. Why are we giving people money again?

> prove me wrong

You're not wrong.

No I dont think corporations should handle peoples welfare, they're values don't coincide with the states values.

You watched one JRE and your convinced by a bugman no less.

I'm sorry, but this is retarded in the first world in the 21st century. Universal Basic Provisions is a recipe for total dysfunction because people's needs change unexpectedly. Anything can happen. You get sick, and you need to spend more on health instead of enjoying muh basic provision digital card to acquire your choice of the weekly propaganda media or something. What you're proposing is just another bureaucratic dystopia. It makes far more sense to let people decide what they spend their universal money on instead of force-feeding them limited basic goods to punish them for not having a job in an increasingly automated consumerist world.

Also, you're apparently blind to the reality a lot of the money goes in circles in the system. A lot of people are employed off tax money, and a lot of those jobs are actually useful (while others of course are useless). Also, services need consumers. If you took away welfare money and didn't replace it with anything, you'd get massive amounts of new low-level crime and plebs would bash middle-class people's heads in on the regular. On the other hand, if you took away welfare money and replaced it with "UBP", many more people would go jobless. You see, their businesses would fail because there aren't enough customers since the UBP racket collects all the money by having the backdoor deal to rake in the unemployed people money to make the fat fatter and make sure small players get stifled.

Ubi should be for citizens only and paid only by non citizens and there should be a maximum wage for non citizens which is precisely the minimum wage for citizens.

> Can you even imagine living your entire life with no goals? No aspirations? Every day is Groundhog Day that never changes. No sense of purpose or accomplishment? Just a useless consumer. Why would anybody want this?

Is this how mutts would live like if we got UBI? it would only be that way if you have an utter lack of creativity or imagination.

That's alright but I'd honestly adopt Putin's program for Siberia or Gadafi's plan with Libya. Take inhabited or depopulated land and assign it to people that want to live on their own, free, off the land. Don't give them anything, aside from the minimum infrastructure to get settled and the assigned piece of land. Let them produce food for theirselves with the condition of giving a percentage of their surplus to the State so the State can then do whatever with that food (sell it, export it, donate it...).
The same people that benefit from that program would be giving a service to their country and could strive to have something on the side as a business to improve their QoL. They could give it all up so it's assigned to the next person (under the supervision that everything is left in good conditions) and pursue other dreams at some points in their lifes or just make it their home.

How are food stamps which only work for certain products not the same thing?

dafuqs JRE?

>people's needs change unexpectedly
No. They don't
You need X calories to survive.
You don't need
>your choice of the weekly propaganda media or something
so you get none

> far more sense to let people decide what they spend their universal money
then they are comfortable and have no reason to do anything ever because everything they want is given free

>punish them for not having a job
I believe you should be punished for leeching off society

> since the UBP racket collects all the money
What money?

I don't think healthcare should be a universal right either.
Making medicine isn't free. Doctor's time isn't free.
Why is it given for free?

Agree.
Also cut all texes down to the max.
Creates more motivation to work.

>Universal Basic Provisions
stupid, how about explain where the money really comes from, have a public dividend like in Alaska, charge corporations for use of the commons and distribute the dividends to the people who own the commons in part

You don't get it do you?

The point is to stop socialists because now everyone is provided for
at the same time make the society leeches more motivated to work

The point is to REDUCE number of welfare queens
NOT make welfare system more sustainable

>stop socialists because now everyone is provided for
>stop socialists by giving them socialism

Fuck that

Let the poor die

Their poverty is the result of low IQs and impulse control

100 years ago this was common sense

>Values principals and morals are needed for a society.

Yes but this is 2019. not the 1700s and economic theory is not guided by those anymore. you're being disingenuous.
So I ask you again why would I sweep the street to value my country or another person when they are nothing more than competition?

Why not just cut to the chase and bring back the poorhouses?

>then they are comfortable and have no reason to do anything ever because everything they want is given free
Very few unemployed people fit that definition, especially over the longer term. No one is getting "everything they want" for free under a UBI system. They get some stuff, but if they want the cool stuff and not spend their lives in a shoebox and low-end consumerist bubble, they'll have to work. From society's point of view it's not a problem if some people actually were comfortable enough to spend their life like that because these people are basically doing nothing but getting their measly money and pouring it back into the system while others make more money and aspire to something.

>leeching off society
Most of the unemployment money goes back into the system and props up services and businesses. Take away that money and you have chaos on your hands very quickly.

they already have welfare
This is cheaper welfare

how will you convince the population to allow this?

Because your quality of life depends on the people around you
Why pay taxes that go to local education if you don't have children?
Because living next to stupid people makes your life shit

If you don't think your country is better than the ones around you
or if you don't want your country to be better than the ones around you
then you should go to a country you do want like this

Sounds like you're selfish.
Good in theory.
Stupid in practice
No person is an island

Because it is hard to get the public to vote for it

>What money?
Oh, so according to you no one would profit of the UBP racket because the unemployed plebs never exchange money for services? It's just magically organized? It wouldn't affect any currently functioning businesses and services? You really need to learn to see the bigger picture.

Even if you put the unemployed into concentration camps on a near starvation diet, you'd have to pay the upkeep of the system and hire personnel like guards to make sure the plebs don't try to escape. Hmm, putting them in concentration camps should teach them!

>Making medicine isn't free. Doctor's time isn't free. Why is it given for free?
It's not free anywhere but your mind that doesn't grasp the big picture at all. Let's shut down the healthcare system. What happens? A lot of people are laid off because the system that employed them is no longer there. Yes, a significant chunk of MDs would find new employment, if not in their country then by emigrating, but there are tons of other people employed by the system that dwarfs the number of MDs. The other benefit besides increasing unemployment would be to kill lots of poor bastards by depriving them of treatment that can easily be offered in the first world in this era. For what? To satisfy someone the desires of someone like you who is mad unemployed people can buy a pair of jeans and shoes and go see a movie and eat a McBurger with their welfare money?

I just find this type of thought process unbelievably naive and simplistic.

What if the company decides to change their welfare system and suddenly I'll have to upgrade to their new premium service to have access to a certain medicine that my life depends on or to get food, but can't pay for the upgrade? There is no profit to make on UBP so why would a company pay for it.

>No one is getting "everything they want" for free under a UBI system.
They should not get ANYTHING they want.
That is the point.

>From society's point of view it's not a problem if some people actually were comfortable enough to spend their life like that because these people are basically doing nothing but getting their measly money and pouring it back into the system while others make more money and aspire to something.
>some people
It's not some people
it's enough that
>measly money
is a large chunk of taxes

>Most of the unemployment money goes back into the system
it is tax money
>props up services and businesses.
services and businesses that do not increase the overall quality of society
They serve the same poor people who then don't need to imporve anything
They quality is always shit becasue they osts must be very low
Instead the same tax money can go back into the system by paying for street cleaners
also a service
but this one is better than a little business that sells poor people shit food

So was women’s suffrage but it still passed

>unemployed plebs never exchange money for services?
What money?
Unemployed get rice
If everyone get's rice then nobody will want it.
The goods have zero market value.
They cannot be traded

>It's just magically organized?
organised by same system that currently organises welfare
government employee

> hire personnel like guards to make sure the plebs don't try to escape.
they can leave when they want. they will come back for the free rice.
It is not prison. It is a shelter

>putting them in concentration camps should teach them!
Why do you think that people who are not competitive in society (by choice or otherwise) should be given anything at all?

>Let's shut down the healthcare system.
There is no free healthcare here and the system works very well
Who lied to you to say that you need to give free healthcare for the healthcare system to exist?

Reducing welfare wont make people work harder it'll just make them more anxious, violent and mistrusting towards each other and feel left out, criminality will rise and the whole system will degrade fast, its better to opt for a more balance between people with access to opportunities and people who don't.

Rice and vitamin supplements are generic products

offer unemployed people a bit more rice if they come work on government rice farm

>access to a certain medicine
if you can't pay for a good or service what makes you think you should get it?

>women’s suffrage
literally half the population
plus it has the "moral highground"
not even close to hard

>Because your quality of life depends on the people around you

lol really..look at what you're saying here..its social darwinism your society will break down because the enemy will be each other. one person will rally sentiment here,another person over here,another over there.. each person offering each group the answer,like you're trying to do lol

>more anxious
anxious of what?
you will always have your rice. it will always feed you the same

>criminality will rise
perfect. pay police more. allow beatings.
all the criminals are now crippled and starve

>its better to opt for a more balance between people with access to opportunities and people who don't.
this exact system is literally not working right now.
it's unsustainable and does not motivate upwards mobility
how is it better?

I was actually born rich. Sorry to offend anyone.

You're joking right?
This is exactly what has always happened

People will congregate into groups
The group that is most competetive will win
the other group will capitulate or die

it's literally how all of nature works
and you're saying society will collapse?
Society was built on this very principle

That’s the crux of the problem.... communist claim that everyone is equal, which is fundamentally false in nature. What they refuse to acknowledge is literally everyone has different skill sets. These skills give you abilities. Very few people have the natural skills to acquire massive wealth. I worked for a guy who had a magical ability in business. I studied his every move because I wanted that skill. Over five years I could not figure out how he did it. People were just drawn to something you couldn’t see in action or deeds. Like a magnet. Guy was not incredibly smart, his personality was normal, he walked like an average person, he wasn’t mean or weirdly nice, no superhero looks, it was just some odd attraction humans had towards him. I really don’t think it mattered what profession he chose, he would of hit the same level of success.

>The point is to REDUCE number of welfare queens
exactly, so you are saying we should allow foreign corporations to rape our commons and not share any of the money with anybody but shareholders?

Alaska has fewer welfare scum than most states, and they have a dividend

this system was promoted by economist Henry George and when his book was first in print every person in the United States owned a copy

he suggested we tax land based on use, using his formula for land tax the only entity paying taxes would be the owner of the land with the trading floor on it, I like that system because it fucks up their system for good

The foundation of society was tribal and with social cohesion.
Today world is multi racial and there's no common good in your community, its everyone for themselves,which is like Todays system..the one you said doesn't work.

>I was actually born rich
no you weren't, rich people don't type on computers on basket weaving forums

you have to be over 50 mil to even be considered rich and really if you have 50 mil you're not rich you're upper middle class

Why would enyone work for a bowl of rice, have no dignity and be the equivalent of second class citizens? Better be a criminal drug dealer degenerate or something and make more money that way.

if you can't pay for a good or service what makes you think you should get it?

Its a moral question, basic human rights which corporations aren't concerned with., I deserve to get it because I'm a human being.

>foreign corporations to rape our commons
grow rice locally genius

>Alaska has fewer welfare scum than most states, and they have a dividend
small rich well-educated population with minimal progressive values

>tribal
we have plenty of tribes now
>cohesion
>no common good
yes. I compltely agree. the lack of this common interest is exactly why
>its everyone for themselves
and everything is falling apart

Because selfishness without cooperation is unsustainable on a large scale
unless you're self-sufficient. Which nobody is

>Why would enyone work for a bowl of rice
you wouldn't
the rice is for those that don't work

>Better be a criminal drug dealer degenerate
this is already a thing
Only so many drug dealers
they will compete and hopefully kill each other
solving the problem

Also many drugs are bought by people on welfare
if they have no money to buy drugs
then there is less demand
so then there can be even less drug dealers

>I deserve to get it because I'm a human being.
and this is exactly why communism exists, cannot be argued with and ultimately always fails
becasue people think they deserve something merely for existing

The only basic human right is the one of not being interfered with.
There are no basic rights that give you something
only ones that prevent someone from taking something away

>small rich well-educated population with minimal progressive values
would you consider the sharing of profit from sale of the commons as progressive?

>grow rice locally genius
what the fuck will that do about theft of value from our nation signed into law by treasonous scum congressmen who are loyal to foreign nations?

Atleast we agree on something.
>Because selfishness without cooperation is unsustainable on a large scale
That won't change because societys main value is materialism, unless this changes society is going down a slippery path.

>sharing of profit from sale of the commons as progressive?
About as progressive as Norwegian citizens getting a share of the Oil revenue
It only works in places that are
>rich
>small population
>well-educated population

>what the fuck will that do about theft of value from our nation signed into law by treasonous scum congressmen who are loyal to foreign nations?
This is completely irrelevant
Currently there are foodstamps where certain corporations provide the goods available through them
I'm suggesting reducing all of that down to a single good which can be produced locally

> societys main value is materialism
this can be changed with "brainwashing" a snese of patriotism and communal value
alongside a strong forced community

The death of Christianity was the death of white people.

>This is completely irrelevant
listen if someone is stealing your shit and you don't cap them you get what you deserve

I like your project in principle but would rather see government out of it entirely to reduce costs, any public benefit can be provided locally by those who are able to help

leave government out of it, welfare only weaken society especially when applied unevenly which it is of course, try claiming anything in a city full of nonwhite people, you won't get shit

>stealing your shit
stealing what?
What are they stealing user?
There is nothing to steal.

>welfare only weaken society
yes
>would rather see government out of it entirely to reduce costs, any public benefit can be provided locally
You will not be able to convince the public to vote for this

You forgot the other thing
>forced sterilization, reversible once they're off the take
You can't allow underclasses like that to breed rapidly or else you're in for disaster, just look at poor communities now.

> Also many drugs are bought by people on welfare
if they have no money to buy drugs
then there is less demand
so then there can be even less drug dealers

Drugs will always exist or find a way into the community, people will find other way to get more money illegally because they're living on one bowl of rice a day, demand will always exist and will only spread more in society if we went with UBP.

But there are apparently rights that allows you to own slave labor, and dictate the way people live their lives exist, basic rights protect people from the violent nature of the free market. The market interferes with the will of the person everyday.

Doubt. No one has a right to society. We have the Amish who saw it fit to make their own society apart from modernity.

Think of it this way. Do you have a right to anyone else's time? How is that different from their money? Why doesn't the state mandate everyone spend 5 hours doing community service instead of a tithe to state owned charity?

You need food as s much as you need friends. But you don't have a right to either.

Abortion helped. Planned Parenthood needs to get into assisted suicide. Then we can start liquidating the poor and truly raise global standard of living.