My gf had an abortion a month and a half ago, she really didn't want to but i told her it was kill it or raise it, and we both knew that we couldn't keep it. I thought it wouldn't be that big a deal, she was supposed to be just 8 weeks in when we finally got the pills so it Shouldve been a but worse than a period. WRONG. She was about 11 weeks or more by our best guess judging by its size (like a fig or a baby orange) and it was pretty traumatic for her, considering she saw our tiny dead son and a few days after that her breasts started producing milk thinking "The baby came out I guess it's time to make food for it" and this upset her even more. She calmed down a lot but she still gets upset now and then, and above all she wants a replacement. She wont call it a replacement because that sounds horrible, but she says its like a hole in her, and it looks like she's got all this motherly affection that now has nowhere to go. We still can't have a baby. Nothing has really changed. What do I do to calm her down and help her fill this need she has now?
My gf had an abortion a month and a half ago, she really didn't want to but i told her it was kill it or raise it...
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Break up with her before she pokes a hole in your condom or leg locks you immobile
Fem here, I went through this in October. My bf and I came to the mutual understanding that we weren't ready to start a family. I went through the "surgical" option. I cried for days afterwards, feeling guilty and that it wasnt the right choice. Now months later I'm pretty over it and I do know it was the right thing to do.
Her emotions and hormones are playing with her. Be there for her and remind her what she did was the right choice and that years from now might be the better time. If it worsens then seek professional help.
It's not physically or mentally healthy to "replace" after such a traumatic event.
Oh and also research postpartum depression. Mothers even who went through with the pregnancy describe feeling empty inside even though they physically have a baby to take care of. She's not alone
And this guy's a twat
But would it be ok to get like a hamster or kitten or something? She's becone weirdly motherly towards me, honestly I just want to help her feel better again, I know she's still hurting and I'm not sure what to do
>abortion in the second trimester
Welp, you've killed a child. It's okay though, it couldn't technically feel pain on the level that we can because of it's under developed nervous system, so really, it's more like you killed a child that was also numb.
Abortion is not alright, it's a terrible thing to commit as it breaks deep emotional bonds within those capable of empathy. Whath of you are feeling is called "shame". Nothing wrong with shame, as it's how some of us need to learn, but you deserve to feel it.
>Now I know it was the right thing to do
No, you just need to tell yourself that to make yourself feel better. It will never be "just hormones". Don't ever call what you did moral, it was extremely irresponsible and damaging to yourself. Sometimes there is no right answer and your only choice is to choose the lesser of many evils. That doesn't mean you get to call your decision moral afterwards.
No, I love her and I want a family with her there's just no way we can have a baby right now, she needs support is all
Morality is a spook but you’re right with the bonding shit that happens in the 2nd trimester, that shit can drive a woman insane and she’ll never go back to normal completely
Lol I even rememeber the device they used, it looked like a turkey baster.
Also with OP talking about this and oranges, I'm becoming a bit peckish.
Good try though mate, made me laugh and I thank you for that
But in all srsness OP don't listen to poor excuses of the heavenly fathers children like this one here
He's either
A. Going to hell if it does actually exist for attempting to cram his shit morals down others throats
B. Reincarnating into a tapeworm
C. Becoming a lonely small fleck of dust
You realize that through this abortion you've permenantly consecrated your family with death? Sometimes life happens, events unfold outside of our control that places new challenges on us which are difficult. They provide struggle. I've seen the homeless raise children, I've been to slums and seen barely dressed children wandering the streets at night with no direction, ive seen children born with horrible birth defects grow up to be healthy and well functioning despite other challenges in their lives. We don't always get to choose who enters and leaves our lives or when or where they do so. That's part of the mystery of life.
Your first child was stillborn by your choice. You can't buy her a pet to replace this feeling in her heart. This is something only time can heal.
>Morality is a spook
No, its measuring how we interact with each other and , via some game theory, coming to a certain terms between ourself and other that benefits bus all.
Stirner was a proponent of "ethical egoism" btw. He was not a nihilist.
You do know coming onto Jow Forums is basically a sin right? Are you trying to be some kind of godly troll
Laughter and anger eh? Well at least you're not a psychopath. Perhaps when you're older, and you'll have time to reflect on your decisions in life you'll realize that you're the reason why your first child died.
You killed your child. It wouldve lived had you chosen to do so. Many women struggle with miscarriages and the stillborn , but you actively chose to engage in something millions of women around the world dread.
t. upper middle-class zoomer
i'd love to see you as a 'barely dressed child wandering the streets at night' or as a homeless person 'raising children'
The things she says are... Certainly haunting. We didn't know it was that far in, and she really wanted to just give it up for adoption but I don't believe in that. There's no way I could let someone else raise our kid and just give them away, see my son and give him to another family and hope they take care of him and don't hurt him. I just couldn't allow her to give away our kid. But sometimes she'll cry and just say all the blood and how it poured out and covered her, shell say how tiny our little guy was and how much she wishes she'd held him and sang to him. She says how much she misses him all the time, asks if i think that he knew she loved him, she would hold her tummy and talk to him. I feel like a shitty guy and a shitty dad and I feel shame but it doesn't compare to hers.
We're all sinners m8, there is no such thing as the perfect human. I don't attack abortion from religious standpoints but from a purely secular viewpoint.
Your child could've but you'd rather it not and so it didn't. You don't have to call this killing it if you want but I just have a hard time seeing a small anthropomorphic fetus being stillborn as not ending some kind of life. Who says God had anything to do with this? It's your choice. Live with it how you may
I sure did. The second after (technicaly several minutes) I peed on a stick and 2 lines appeared, I knew I had to banish it.
Is what you're trying to achieve working? No? You must pray to God for forgivess for you cannot fix the wrong doings of humanity
Now you must say six hundred and sixty six Our Fathers for your penance
Well your right, I am upper middle class by birth, but I currently work as an EMT and volunteered a lot when I was younger so I would avoid the pitfalls of bourgeois society around me.
I have seen small children around dead bodies and the pain of the severely disabled. Drugs addicts, the wounded, etc. It never gets easier really. I've seen children raised in poverty just fine. They go hungry sometimes but that is what charity is for.
I know its hard user, like I was saying, sometimes life introduces us to a choice between many evils and no matter what we choose we can never feel vindicated. The pain will pass, but you need to accept that your child is gone. It's only something that happens with time.
All you can do is stay there for her.
I don't care about God here, I care about you. Maybe you don't realize it yet, but you've hurt yourself. Hopefully one day you do.
can you explain how stirner wasn’t a nihilist? What sets egoism apart from it?
also in this supposed game there must be different Nash equilibria, that’s how game theory works, therefore morality is relative and therefore a spook
Are you a therapist? Because you might as well start charging by the hour since you're trying so hard /eyeroll
Why do you think someone who chooses what they did, must feel negativity towards said choice? I'm actually fascinated now on how you assembled such opinion.
Kidding I'm actually not. *puts cellphone down to go have sex with bf*
>Well your right, I am upper middle class by birth
Which is exactly why you're not in a position to make the 'struggle good for you' argument. You should've stopped at 'you've permenantly consecrated your family with death'. Which is partly true, in the sense that the mother will hardly be 'complete' until she actually gives birth to a baby, it will mean a rebirth for the first baby and so the offspring will be doubly precious to him.
to her*, fck
Didn't actually see this response, sorry OP.
I would say no, she's not in the right state for that right now. But props to you for trying to really help her. Give her your time and care. But I do think professional help will do good. There is group counselling for females who have gone through the same or just one on one if she's not comfortable. You two will get through this.
Nihilism is a total rejection of all moral principles, Stirner does advocate for a kind of morality via ethical egoism which advocates for a certain amount of moral principles via the
en.m.wikipedia.org
When Stirner says that morality is a spook he has a very specific philiological context to how he is using "morality" in that phraseology that I think he goes into more detail about in his rebutall to critics of the Ego and It's Own. He basically means "objective morality" but the rejection of objective morality is not nihilism as that is just one form of morality.
>Why do you think someone who chooses what they did, must feel negativity towards said choice?
I don't. Some people are just so anti-social that they have no reason to be concerned with being so careless about life. Other times people hide behind their mannerisms as a method of coping. There truly are people who wouldnt think twice about eviscerating a fetus. For some it is not so easy.
Hell, I've seen people stab each other out of rage yet scold me for being too liberal on the subject of abortion. It's wild world out there. Still, what you are if you truly feel nothing (although you already admitted you did feel sorry earlier) then you're just a person with no empathy. Unfortunately, you're not actually the psycopathic type and are obviously lying to yourself about it out of recklessness and anger.
>Just because you grew up with money around means you have had no struggle in life
Topkek. My life was fairly miserable despite me not going hungry and having healthcare and an education. Suffered from extreme psychosis and was almost condemned to a psychaitric wing in high school after 3 suicide attempts and drug addiction. Most of my friends were gang bangers, the poor, the people which bourgeois society hated and for which I got many cold looks for even associating with them.
That's how I got to live outside of my own bubble, and yeah I saw children living in terrible conditions who relied on the charity of others to live. It's not always such a bad life, we all have our struggles and duties.
>Just because you grew up with money around means you have had no struggle in life
that's not what I said, and that wasn't the subject in discussion, it was specifically about children and having children in an unfavorable moment in life, for the parent and/or the children
don't have sex if you aren't mature enough to handle these kinds of things.
Yeah you see this kind of morality in war sometimes. When the gestapo comes knocking on your door , sometimes it's easier to kill your children yourself than let those monsters do it.
Unfortunately such a decision is still willingly taking life, and for what? So that your child, which you have no evidence will not survive the birthing process, may never feel inconvenienced in life? No matter where or how you have your child it will never be spared be pain.
I'm not totally against the concept of eugenics but abortion in context to a young couple feelings like now is not the time is no excuse to have an abortion especially when you have a myriad of different options to prevent pregnancy to begin with. If you're not willing to commit to the consequences of sexual relations then you are being irresponsible period
>sex is bad mmmkay?
How is what they're feeling a sign of immaturity? She's feeling loss which is completely normal. And he is unsure of what to do because it's not an every day type of occurance.
She's not very social in general, so one on one might be better. I dunno, shes just sad here and there but its deep sad pits, and half of what she talks about is
"user I miss our baby." "user when can we have a new baby?" She loves looking at cute things etc. I know she'll get better with time but how do I respond to these things?
>How is what they're feeling a sign of immaturity?
They failed to have monthly pregnancy tests while they were having casual sex in a position where they could no afford to raise a child in their specific ideal then aborted the child when they were unaware it was in the 2nd trimester already.
Yeah, you know, something about that seems kind of irresponsible , immature, and tragic. Almost as if they are a young and inexperienced couple.
You're going to have to be sad with her, there is no other response or quick tip in healing a deep emotional wound. It's a part of the grieving process.
I wish I could tell you a quick way to fix this but you feeling so protective is part of the process too
Has she shown signs of depression or any other mental illness before this? She's being obsessive seeing how's it's been a month and a half.
In my exp, I felt a "need" for a child after the abortion because that's what my body was prepared for but it passed within 2 weeks at most. I'm not sure if this is still her body telling her this is what she needs or if this is her mind playing worse tricks. Does her family know? Are you able to talk more sense to her in a careful way?
Also if this is draining you too much, you are her boyfriend and you're doing very well at that but please don't feel obligated to ruin your health over it either because that will do no good.
>She's being obsessive
*Is having a perfectlty healthy grieving period
>I felt a need because of hormones alone and it only took me 2 weeks
Them you're fairly abnormal if you also had an abortion in the second trimester. There are just some people with greater levels of empathy than you.
Nobody knows except her and me, so she's only got me for support. She's had some depression, but she always wanted a family so I dont know if its just strong maternal feelings? She just reminds me of an a mother animal that had its babies taken from it
I try my best to make her feel ok, at first I tried acting normal like nothing was going on but that made her way upset because she wanted to see me grieve too
What is healthy? When should I be worried for her?
Well, men tend to grieve differently than woman, it's different for everyone really, so if you want to blame yourself out of some confusion then don't. You have your own process and she has hers.
I'd say about 3 months, if she has any vseriously dangerous mannerisms about her then you might want to get her checked for depression. It sounds like it's fairly normal right now, trying to find comfort in her surroundings.
Unfortunately, these kinds of events don't leave the memories of people at the same rates. I wouldn't be frightened at this , however, as its a part of maturation to rack up painful memories. It's just what you have to deal with.
I was afraid she hated me and blamed me, but she doesnt seem to. She blames herself and she's going through all that negativity, she'd curl up during the first week or two and just nestle up on my chest and say that she was a bad mommy. I know that well get through it but I do worry about her fixating on it. She's fine at work so she says she just grieves at home and told nobody, so how do I help redirect her need to care for something to a healthy outlet? One thing I forgot to mention is that she picked a name for him, I didn't really understand why but it helped her, and sometimes at night when she's asleep ill hear her say his name
buy a low budget pet
I've been thinking a hamster
look up postpartum depression, it’s possible she could be suffering from something like that
no it is normal to feel guilty after murdering your own child
I've seen abortion ruin like 3 different relationships. It's amazingly traumatizing for the mother.
No its not that bad she's just grieving I think
Get a dog. A dog is the most emotionally engaging pet. If there's a pet that can take her mind off the baby, it's a dog.
OP it's hard to give advice to pieces of shit like you. You aborted a baby, forced your GF to decide whether to raise or kill it, and you have zero idea how to help your GF. God damn I hate faggots like you.
I mean... Ouch I guess a lot of hate there user. I'm not exactly great with this so yeah I asked for help, etc does "faggots like you" mean
We can't handle a dog right now
You know. The discussion here made me 100% anti abortion.
I always see not ready or cant have a child. Why exactly? When is someone ready for a child? With experience, nope not possible. Child having school? No such thing. Too poor? African tribals manage it somehow and so do chinese peasents.
Cool but I'm not ready to go live in the dirt and feed my starving kid insects. I'm not bringing a kid up in poverty. In shithole places a shit upbringing is normal.
What was getting in your way exactly?
I can't understand what about your life is so pants-shittingly difficult, you couldn't handle a child. It really doesn't cost much, a second bedroom and some lost work time for Mom. You might have had to change your schedules around to rear the child in shifts.
You are awful. You should change and then give her what she wants.
Oh so once you have a child you get fired, all your money burned, each and every thing you own gets destroyed and any family and friends Support vanishes into thin air... Yeah the baby poverty enforcement agency is horrible.
Work two jobs.
Your poor woman. God. I wonder how many slightly more giving men she could have chosen and not suffered like this. Is she pretty? If she is, she could have gone to any church and bagged a rich one.
Well he cant go on vacation every two weeks and they still need that fifth entertainment System in the bathroom, because boredom on the shitter is against basic human rights.
There are so many programs for new families too.
Like a baby costs fucking thousands. Yes masses of diapers are expensive but damn they aint made of gold and platinum.
Nono the agency forces you to be homeless and starving dont you know that? The BPA is ruthless!
There is no sky papa that is judging our actions. Spark of the divine is within every being to some degree and you are actively killing it in yourself.
She works full time 12 hour night shifts, having a newborn wouldn't fly and she'd never have time for it, and she'd lose a lot of hours and money. And taking into account all the doctors appointments, toys, baby clothes, crib, we'd need to move because we can't have a baby where we live now, we dont have famiky around here at all... No. It couldn't have worked. We couldn't have given a child a good life.
Tldr.
You murdered your child and even looked at its helpless tiny dead cold body. As a man, a user luckly without such experience it hurts me. I dont want to know how it feels for a woman, much worse the affected one.
Is your home literally filled with toxic fumes? All that shit you listed is consumerist luxury fluff. Once again. A baby needs warmth, food and some hygene. Thats it. Cloth, some food and a sink.
I didn't see it no, but she did. She didn't want me to see it.
I've literally seen retail team members manage.
You didn't even try. You've just been worming your way out of it since she came to you.
Ever seen a gore thread? Those tiny human corpses. Heartbreaking. For me at least. Your girl spared you seeing this. Imagine having this little living thingy in you. And you rip it out killing it. Pair that with female hormones and mother instincts. She is traumatized and pushing it away to forget.
Just note that some places in Africa eat mud pancakes to keep tgeir stomaches full, plenty more die. Starving kids in Africa isn't a myth, it's a big place with a lot of communities and cultures.
There's people starving all around you too.
No one in America is unwillingly starving.
Also that they didn't bother to see if they were compatible on kids and life nor discuss what to do if this situation arose.
You mean you live in even worse conditions? How do you have Internet?
And even those poor Bastards survive even with high death rates. Dude just stop. You are diging yourself in a hole. Your own arguments prove how much of a hypocrite you are. Your cope levels are of the charts.
What do you expect from a person writing such bullshit like muh starving africans.
>those capable of empathy
>Jow Forums
topkek
Glad you went around the whole country to verify this. If you are poor you are always starving because you can't afford food. There is not endless good at shelters and soup kitchens all the time. I have experienced this personally.
Wtf are you talking about?
Not every post is either OP or you.
There's also people here you know.
wish my parents had aborted me
I literally spent my childhood raised by a batshit dog lady. We were entirely dependent on the state and still couldn't make ends meet because she was too dumb to be in that position.
You have to actually be retarded to not be able to get food in this country. Even if you somehow exhaust every shelter and food pantry possible, every thing is stupidly cheap in this country. Fucking one dollar for a two liter of Coke.
>There's no way I could let someone else raise our kid and just give them away, see my son and give him to another family and hope they take care of him and don't hurt him.
>so instead let's just fucking kill him
this is your logic
>its like a hole in her
It is and know exactly how she feels. Me, I had to leave my bf of two years 5 months later. He was never giving me a child. I found another guy a few months later and had a baby and he wanted the child. Doesn't sound like you get it user calling it a "replacement" like its some lost toy. You just want her to shut up and have have 0 empathy for her, its clear.
No, you don't get fired. What you do have is your expenses doubled in some cases. It happened to me. My girlfriend and I went from living comfortably on our own to barely scraping by. Had we been making just a little less money, I don't know what we would have done. Family and friends are great, but they aren't there to indefinitely support your family. And having a kid isn't a rough patch that goes away after a few months. It's something you have to deal with for the rest of your life, and most people aren't willing to let you crash at their home for 6 months, never mind years. Government programs are great, but don't cover nearly as much as you think.
Most people aren't completely ready for a child. But some of us are more ready than others.
Sometimes what's moral and what's right aren't the same thing.
Fuck you
I think it's normal.
First and foremost, i'm personally not against abortion. If a woman, by mistake, get pregnant and both mom and dad agree that they aren't in a position where they can raise the child in a proper manner, it's understandable to break off the pregnancy. So many children nowadays grow up in broken families which hurts their ability to grow up as productive and competitive adults. I personally wouldn't want to have a child unless i'm certain i can raise the child the way he/she should be raised. If i ever mistakenly knock up a woman and i know i'm incapable of taking proper care of the child, i don't want the kid to be born.
That being said though, to a woman, abortion still feels very much like she's killing her own child (because she is). There are no two ways around it. A woman starts producing mommy hormones the moment she becomes pregnant and a child in her womb will already feel like her child even if it hasn't been born yet. By taking an abortion she consciously kills her own child. That will traumatize her for some time and in some cases even for the rest of their lives. Abortion simply takes a massive toll on a woman's mental health and it's always a difficult to decision whether it's worth it. You and your girlfriend will have to deal with this consequence now. The only advice i can give you is the be very supportive of her and care for her like a man. She will eventually feel better.
What? No it's not. They're the exact same thing.
Retarded logic. If a baby is growing, developing, it is life and human life enough not to ever kill it. Don't want a baby = don't get pregnant in the first place you retards.
By your logic it would be fine to "break off the child's life" if I get into financial troubles and me and my wife argue a lot, especially because you acknowlege that abortion is killing a child.
very sorry to hear your gf is grieving after you convinced her to kill your child. Best way to help her is to get on a path where she can have a baby soon, hopefully with somebody who doesn't want to kill it because it came at an inconvenient time
>Retarded logic
Nothing in my post is about logic you idiot. Nothing about abortion in general is about logic. It's solely about morals and your personal belief system. Basically the way you personally feel about this. Some people believe it's morally acceptable to consider abortion, other don't. You can't have a rational debate about abortion in the same way you can have a debate about climate change. Don't challenge me on whether abortion is acceptable or not because it's a pointless debate which i'm not going to engage in with plebs like you.
>By your logic it would be fine to "break off the child's life" if I get into financial troubles and me and my wife argue a lot
You make these conditions up yourself. Don't put words into my mouth, thank you.
These are very average reactions to an abortion. Your girlfriend is experiencing the hormonal changes that would occur with any woman having an abortion or miscarriage. Milk production, depression, etc.
It can take several months for her body's hormones to regulate. It is also very likely that she is very fertile, so use a solid birth control method and condoms or you will find yourself in the same boat.
I think she should reach out to a support group for women experiencing something similar. To her, this is a loss. And her hormones are heightening the emotions involved with it.
Reassure her that right now, a baby is not doable and in the future you guys can bring a baby into a more stable environment to ensure your child's future.
I abhor the killing of unborn children and will rebuke anyone trying to make excuses for it.
You claim;
> If a woman, by mistake, get pregnant and both mom and dad agree that they aren't in a position where they can raise the child in a proper manner, it's understandable to break off the pregnancy.
You claim that abortion is understandable when certain subjective terms are met (conditions of "proper" raising of child). You further claim:
> So many children nowadays grow up in broken families which hurts their ability to grow up as productive and competitive adults.
You imply that it is understandable to perform an abortion of a child if it is safe to assume he won't be competetive in the work environment.
I claim that these are bad excuses and an extreme procedure like murder of a child should not be administered.
You're still trying to debate about it, how surprising:
>I claim that these are bad excuses and an extreme procedure like murder of a child should not be administered.
Like i mentioned in This is based on YOUR personal belief/conviction/morality. You consider these bad excuses because of your upbringing, religion, background, peers etc.
I'm not interested in your essay on why abortion in general is bad. OP's post is about how he can deal with the situation and how to help his girlfriend. That's what i gave him my 2 cents on. I will not bait myself into debating with you over the concept of abortion in general. If you're interested in that, go find some other thread where you can try to convince people why abortion should be illegal.
>no way we can have a baby right now
its never the right moment, user. If you made such a serious step as an abortion, you really dont want kids, dont lie to yourself that you are not ready yet. People are raising children is much worse conditions and never regret it. You are just a pussy afraid of change!
Hope you never breed and feel that father-son relationship while teaching your son life lessons or feeling young again while playing with his car toys.
And before you ask, yes I have a kid, I am one happy father and I love my 4 year old son more than anything in this world.
>How do I redirect her to a healthy outlet
You can't, like I'm trying to say it's all part of the grieving process. Eventually she grows past it as part of a natural emotional process. You just need to give her room to grieve and be close when she wants to find comfort then wait patiently.
If she struggles with this, then therapy, prayers, or meditation
Trying to reduce the grieving process down to purely mechanistic issues is not enough. It's more than a hormonal imbalance and depression is not the same as sadness.
You’re a piece shit and I’m not even anti abortion. You pushed this on her and now she is likely traumatized for life. You clearly don’t love her so let her find someone who can give her a loving family.
Fuck off.
this user, get the fuck out of there. this is will be a stain on your relationship and will color the rest of it