Serious discussion on UBI

>UBI is sensible
NEETS already dont pay tax. Why should they get more money?

Since some form of welfare is unavoidable in a democracy, getting rid of the concept of government should be a priority.

All forms of redistribution is theft, and giving money to those who are net payers is stupid.

>You say that as if the government isn't going to skim a fuckton off the top
No, I say it like the amount they skim from the middle class, once you factor the $1k in, will remain about the same.

Money in a means of exchange. It's used as a measuring stick to value goods and services. UBI defeats the whole purpose of money, and you don't understand, that when everyone has $12,000 per year automatically, $12,000 just becomes the new $0 on the measuring stick. When everybody has $12,000, nobody has $12,000.

Why can't you people understand this? Just like "if everyone has a college degree, everyone will earn $60,000 per year out of college." No, a college degree just became the new base level and they earn $30,000 out of college.

>Since some form of welfare is unavoidable in a democracy, getting rid of the concept of government should be a priority.
Okay, but until then, how about a different form of welfare that doesn’t favour the lazy and dishonest?

>Why can't you people understand this?
Because that’s not how it works at all.
It would push inflation, at least at first, but saying it’s the new zero makes literally no sense.

1) Due to government inefficiency and theft, they have to collect at least $2 for every $1 they distribute.

2) Niggers and spics contribute nothing.

3) Since niggers and spics contribute nothing, a white person will have to contribute almost $4,000 for every $1,000 handed out.

Conclusion: White people will each lose an additional $3,000 per month to government.

Crunch the numbers, user.
It would require defunding LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

$12,000 becomes worthless. Huge inflation, everyone earns more money on paper, but real earnings do not increase.

It makes perfect sense and you cant grasp the basic fundamentals of currency. Currency is only worth its value when you offer a service or goods in exchange. Otherwise its just toilet paper.

>welfare niggers are unavoidable in society, lets make it happen
make welfare white again

Nah, until then we accelerate things. Make Greece conservative, comparatively speaking. When our countries collapse, we can rebuild it.

Because meanwhile, all those who breed shouldn't.

>implying its not the new $0
Even if its not the new $0 it drives up inflation which drives up cost of living.

Now all of a sudden your $1000 from the get go does not buy you $1000 worth of goods but $980 but thats not all.

The Gook is saying he wiill also throw on top of that a 10% consumption tax on goods and services making it even MORE expensive. So that probably reduces it by another 10% if you had spent it all meaning get $880 out of the original $1000 to spend.

Sure you say $880 is still better than nothing, but you forget INFLATION is OVER TIME which means every year your $880 loses more and more of its purchasing power but Gook here is only el Presidente for eight years, he doesn't care if 15 years down the track, $880 can't pay the rent or buy you basic food supplies for a month or that there are now so many spics taking advantage of UBI to rort it.

But you don't care, you're too simple minded to.

>kys and sage tranny

Or, instead of crashing every economy on Earth, how about you just implement sane economic policies and wait for the left to flip its shit as it will inevitably do because REAL COMMUNISM HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED HUURRRRRR and then all the fence-sitters will stop sitting on the fence.

>A big problem with current types of welfare is you only give it to people that don’t work, or don’t work much.

The real problem is that the difference between welfare and working is abysmally small. You can sometimes get less money when working than on welfare.

Nobody wants to sacrifice 8 hour of their life every day for measly extra 400€/month. Thats 2.5€/hour, the definiton of slave labour.

Serfdom, more accurately.

This. Theres two camps. Those who are economically illiterate and those who know this will wreck the economy and crash all gibs for everyone. Those gibs me dats welfare niggers wont be able to feed their 15 kids when their food stamp card turns into a chunk of worthless plastic.

Thats why the yang threads are so abundant, you have two camps memeing it... one knowing it will be the beginning of the end, and the low IQ tards being useful idiots expecting free money.

You cannot be this dense.
Most people would break even. $1k extra tax, $1k extra benefit.
What do you need to defund for that?

The big difference is there’s no cut-off where someon stops receiving welfare.
There’s less bureaucracy around who’s entitled to what, since everyone gets it. What do you defund for that?

>1) Due to government inefficiency and theft, they have to collect at least $2 for every $1 they distribute.

The one good thing in UBI is that it will make tens of thousands of welfare jobs obsolete. When everyone gets the same amount you don't need old grumpy women in well payed government jobs deciding who gets what.

What do welfare niggers get currently? Including money for housing, healthcare, food stamps etc.
Is that amount per month currently worthless?
Because that’s what this will replace.
They get $1k, but that’s it. They buy their own food, pay their own rent and healthcare.

a cuck is a cuck regardless if he has a designated cuckshed. It's sad.

That’s why I think UBI is better.
For those people, even working a few hours would be worth it.

>Most people would break even. $1k extra tax, $1k extra benefit.
Show me the fucking tax rates that will allow for this to be the case.
You haven't crunched the numbers. You aren't even quoting someone who crunched the numbers for your lazy ass.

I bet welfare niggers get more than $1000 right now. It's the same in any place that has discretionary welfare. As long as you're a nigger you can milk the system dry.

I know it'll crash it but I'm for it because it'll be funny watching the coastal cities burn first.
>Get UBI
>mass exodus from cities like LA and New York to places with cheaper cost of living to maximize UBI
>The rich spend more and more of their own money to prop up illegals because they can't get UBI and are the only ones left.

It's gonna be great.

Who's the chick?

If we abolish all other forms of wellfare and other taxpayer funded social programs then and only then can ubi be okay. Also remove all non military government workers and congress/senate and government officials cant collect on it.

This is true, I think the problem lies within our too social system. You as a finnish guy and me as a german understands the concept that when you work more the net worth of an hour working becomes smaller and smaller up to the tax maximum. And even for an employee it becomes harder to raise wages because a net wage increase must mean a bigger wage increase before taxes. In other words if you want 5% more money your boss needs to spend 5%+%tax. This is already a problem in a fiat capitalist society where purchasing power flows towards investors instead of consumers. Now add a high tax burden ontop + social programs with ultra high spending and you end up with no reason to work because 100% effort will only end up with 1% result.

But universal basic income wont solve that issue because it still works under the same rules as do benefits now. You'd have to go on a gold standard universal basic income, basically instead of money you get goods / services. Otherwise inflation forces that shit to be adjusted constantly. I like the idea that it is supposed to reduce bureaucracy. The meme that people will seek better job opportunities because they dont have to worry about money anymore has been debunked by the finnish study.

Wheres the pic of her ass, i know your in here red shirt guy

You're a fucking idiot. Let's say the number is 1k to "help" people pay their rent/mortgage whatever. Literally within a month rent and % of interest for mortgages will go up accordingly. Look what happened with Cali and their minimum wage hike, a couple of months later rent went up by 30% across the board, look at New York with their increase in welfare benefits, the taxes are so high people are flooding out like rats to Jersey, Boston, Vermont etc; I know it's a might be a foreign concept to a Britbongistahni who are literally cucks to the state, but in civilized countries handling your own fucking business and working for what you want is a thing.

And?

Why are boomers so afraid of people not killing themselves slowly at work?

Like if I put a gun in front of you and just sit there not doing anything will you just lose it and blow your own brains out? Are you that neurotic?

What's the difference if I only work 20 hours a week versus 40 if productivity is the same?

You're dumb. You think work is so great you can work for the both of us wage cuck.

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Insult, something tangentially related, insult related to the country I’m posting from.
Yep, great case for keeping the great welfare system you already have.

You do that, I'll be in the back cheering.
> Not knowing what a democracy truly is.

?

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>Nobody wants to sacrifice 8 hour of their life every day for measly extra 400€/month

Nigga what? Doesn't your backwater country have minimum wage? I make 12 bucks an hour and time and half for over time and I've paid off my house, have two cars and 180k in the bank. And that's just my money that I've saved from my main job, I also do freelance welding/plumbing in my spare time and have been making another 5k a month just from that. My loser cousin is on welfare and can barely afford a studio apartment.

He's a NEET with a complex.
Democracy is a method of giving a country the government they deserve.

Reread my post you fucking sandnigger I did all that.

You misunderstand.
He means the difference between getting welfare and having a shitty job and your welfare stopping.

they get way more than a $1000 ,, my sister is a wigger piece of filth and has a nog friend who has 4 kids by way of 3 guys (of course no husband/bf currently) uhm has no job and lives solely off the government , she has a 3 bedroom apartment , a kia mini suv thing i think is only 3 years old , a gym membership , all those shitty streaming services hulu/netflix/amazon , and i'm guessing a few other things that go into her monthly bills ,, all in all my guess is she gets somewhere near $4,000 a month from the government to live out the female nigger fantasy life

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>Since some form of welfare is unavoidable in a democracy
That's where you're wrong, it's unavoidable in socialism, in real democracy people would have option to opt-in or out.

I’ve re-read it. I stand by everything I said. You made no case. Enjoy things the way they are, coward.

no, UBI is shit, Society in Europe Shows that this doesnt work
Wages have to be fair, Fiat currency has to die and Welfare has to consist of paying the Rent, giving a good diet to the People and clothing them well enough, giving them Money has proven to be the stupidest Thing one can do

> Why are boomers so afraid of people not killing themselves slowly at work?
Well, the boomers know they can't consume more than what has been produced, and they know if we dwindle supplies, their money becomes worthless.

I mean, if suddenly money loses half its value, NEETs won't see the difference, Boomers with huge bank accounts will.

> What's the difference if I only work 20 hours a week versus 40 if productivity is the same?
It is not. On one hand, there's demographic winter. On the other, there is an ever-increasing debt. Automation can't compensate for both that and you working less.

And let me be clear, I am 100% for you working less, our socio-economic system to crash causing boomers and single mothers to starve as the system they use to parasite others vanishes.

/thread
ex-commie countries know

Serious answer it's a failed concept only countries that use it are beta cucks to US Military, only export oil and communise the hell out of it.

Alaskan here.

The $1k we get is alright. But I wouldn't be upset if it went away.

It would unironically be better for people on welfare to get government soilent than SNAP.

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This.

It's the same problem as raising the minimum wage, it's just makes consumer goods cost more. We have an $18 minimum wage but everything is expensive. The only way ubi could work would be full blown socialism, where the government runs businesses, exports products for profit, and instead of shareholder dividends they pay people a ubi. Theoretically it could work, but in reality it wouldn't because the government is incapable of running anything efficiently.

This guy fucks.

Welfare/tax cliffs are the major detractors from society.

e.g. free food/housing vs. Working 70 hours/wk minimum wage for the same

e.g. my effective tax rate is about 19%, my marginal tax rate is in the high 30s low 40s.

Shit is fucked.

Answer me this then why are people fleeing from NY and Cali? Even though they have the most social welfare programs? Because a raise in welfare programs = a raise in taxes, a raise in gibs = a raise in consumer goods. Look at our shitty welfare and medicaid programs, experts are all in agreement saying that it'll collapse in 20-30 years. Have you seen independent reporters filming in Cali? Record number homeless and people are dying in the streets there's more poop in the streets than in downtown India.

i dont know how things look in Canada, but here in Germany a healthy diet is the most cost efficient shit you can buy, having a state sanctioned diet would save a lot of NEETs

>Theoretically it could work
No it wouldn't. Look at Cali or Portland, buncha druggie hipsters lazing around all day not contributing shit, with a UBI that number would skyrocket across the country and our society would collapse. Ever been to Russia? Buncha fucking lazy drunken bums everywhere, same in Spain, Greece, Italy.

Pretty simple math. Once you cut all the government departments needed to administer >9000 gibs programs, along with the programs themselves, and simply issue the UBI super gibs through the tax department you come out either even or ahead depending on the country. So less government, lower burden on the taxpayer and a much fairer system since everyone, including say struggling small business owners etc get it? Yeah, it's great in principle. Also not originally a communist idea surprisingly enough, as they (despite promises) love everyone working forever for the good of the state. On top of that, if you try and do it more how superannuation works in Straya (or a 401k in the US) and instead of it being directly from taxes, you can try and get each individuals gibs directly paid from a special investment portfolio that's providing passive income. Again, lower taxes. Hell, abolish income tax as well at that point - reward anyone that can start a business and therefore keep the whole thing moving along.

Cheap food in North America is all potato, corn and soi or animals fed corn and soi.

>e.g. free food/housing vs. Working 70 hours/wk minimum wage for the same

Where the fuck are all ya'll working at that you make the same as if being on welfare? My nephew works at Wal-Mart and makes $450 after taxes more than being on welfare.

If you get 1200€/month on welfare (unemployment benefit, social security, housing benefit etc) playing ping pong with your balls and 1600€/month at mac donalds doing 40h/week it's not hard to see which one more lucrative.

450 USD a month more than welfare?
Because if that's per month and he works 40 hour weeks...
450 / 4 / 40 = ~2.81 per hour

Section 8 is more valuable in the city. An apartment that rents $900-1200 a month that you pay $100 for is what makes being a welfare queen more worth it or as worth it for working.

Yes. Defund everything except the military (which since everyone would have a lot more free time could be staffed mainly by volunteer patriots - personally I support the Starship Troopers system of citizenship) and some critical emergency services. You have any idea how lean you can run the government if you scrapped the infinite number of gibs programs? No more student support, food stamps, housing subsidies, sponsoring colleges, paying for veterans pensions etc. Just cash for everyone and nothing else. Combine that with a fully automated economy producing consumer goods at nearly 0 labour cost and widespread 3d printing driving prices down and I can't see how it's able to fail.

How the 1k line was decided? Why not 500, or maybe 1.5k?

Again, any attempt to implement this would collapse the world economy.
How reliant is Australia on International trade, user?
I hope you like onions, because that's one of the few crops you guys produce a lot of.

He makes 9.60 an hour. His average paycheck is 921. Every month he makes 1,843.

There's a difference - they lose the gibs if they work. UBI, you get it regardless, so no reason not to work as well and get more. So yeah, absolute lazy fucks will lie around, which they already do. Would you? Cutting off your nose to spite your face is most of the argument against UBI.

Also end all of these subsidies to these mega-corporations----and end the Fed and all Wall Street banks and all private equity firms. Banking and burgher commerce is not Aryan....Plato was right---merchants are lower than farmers....

I suppose so but their shitholes on average and less and less people accept section 8. I turn down those cocksuckers all the time.

>momokun
"enjoy"

What we produce most of is raw materials - so honestly, we'll be fine regardless as robots still need steel kek. And no, how exactly is massive defunding of all the various government programs (that cost more than $1000 per head already) going to collapse the global economy?

I can't see this working, user. I'm sorry. Good luck with your 100% automation, no government, volunteer soldiers country.

Right but if he takes home only 450 a month more than welfare would give him, he is basically working for $3 an hour.

He could go on welfare, donate plasma for cash $70/wk, and be only $170 worse off with 152 more hours to himself.

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>corporate subsidies
Yep, that too - no more billion dollar bank bailouts, as job losses are absorbed by UBI.

how the fuck are we going to pay for this without inflation? Money is all what we collectively believe it to be, and no way is apple going to give away ten iphone x's a year for free every year to every person

Serious discussion on shill posts and why OP is a faggot.

I desperately want a UBI so I can fully embrace my autism and become a steam train driver

>turn down section 8

nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/think-twice-before-turning-away-tenants-with-section-8-vouchers.html

ISHYGDDT

>how exactly is massive defunding of all the various government programs (that cost more than $1000 per head already) going to collapse the global economy?
You mean aside from the global economy being based entirely on speculation and US force projection across the globe allowing trade vessels to not get hijacked by pirates or attacked by competing countries?
The swing in oil prices it would cause alone could crash most countries.

UBI is essentially the last hand that elites use to curb the retard population

That being said once it's invoked it's essentially only downhill
There's no way to recover a country that has accepted UBI as it's means of substance, not while producers > consumers

UBI is basically doomsday, but not like America has any other option anyways

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for any simpletons who don't understand why this will cause inflation, read this (complicated and long) reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/v0r11/eli5_if_there_are_hundreds_of_countries_in_debt/c50b5s2/?context=3&st=jt44gp5z&sh=205f4f4c

I don't need luck. I work for a mining company as an automation specialist haha. What I described is one option - or you could try mass culling of the useless eaters by the elites. It's gonna be one or the other, make your choice. My way is small government and nationalist focused (as it's not viable with mass immigration distorting each nations programs). But maybe you'd prefer the kikes way, who knows?
>Volunteer army
Have you never noticed that burgers and other nations with militias (like Straya used to) have no issues finding volunteers?

What are you babbling about? I specifically said you downsize the government not abolish the military.

A fucking tweet can send the stock market into a tizzy and you think a COMPLETE RESTRUCTURING of the US federal government wouldn't have some crazy economic repercussions?

>why are people fleeing from NY and Cali?
Because if tax and gibs.
UBI would replace a hundred kinds of gibs. No minimum wage, no foodstamps, no related bureaucracy.

>No it wouldn't. Look at a place that doesn’t have UBI and imagine how bad it would be with UBI
I don’t think you’ve got the hang of this user.

>No minimum wage
HAHAHAHA
Good luck with that.

It should be just enough to live on, but it doesn’t really matter as long as everyone gets it.

>just enough to live on
You dont need money to "just enough to live". You just need a cardboard box and some carbs and you can live indefinitely.

Just ask the niggers in Africa and Haiti.
youtube.com/watch?v=s3337cj4sJQ

Socialist programs like UBI can only work in ethnostates with a homogenous culture and set of values, of races with a high average IQ.

Deport all the non-whites & lock the borders down and I will gladly pay into some socialist programs. Handing my money to Shaquayla, Juan, and Mohammed who have no chance of ever becoming a net positive for society no matter how many free gibs we’re forced to give them, is just throwing it away.

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I think you’re expecting a bigger change in than you’ll actually get.
Welfare niggers get welfare anyway, so it’s just rolling all of their handouts into one big handout.
Rich people would come out ever so slightly worse off.
Middle class would get taxed more, but it would basically even out with the $1k they get back.

The big difference would be for those people that are under-employed. People who don’t want to work more because they would lose benefits.

This would also mean there’s no excuse for minimum wage. Everyone already has enough to survive, so you could let the market set low wages.