In academia that the Soviet Union didn't kill tens of millions is literally just common knowledge at this point. The archives have long since confirmed that the official execution count was around 800,000 and literally all modern historians, even rabid anticommunists, are now in almost complete agreement that the Holodomor wasn't an act of intentional killing or genocide.
Here's a list of historians and academics, most of whom are liberals, who reject the notion that Stalin killed millions: - Robert Service - Stephen Kotkin - Arch Getty - Sheila Fitzpatrick - Andrei Fursov - Yuri Zhukov - Viktor Zemskov - Gabor Rittersporn - Brian Manning - Albert Syzmanski - Michael Parenti - Robert Thurston - Douglas Tottle - Mark Tauger - Ian Grey - Kenneth Neil Cameron - Isaac Deutscher - Robert Davies - Stephen Wheatcroft - Stephen Gowans - Domenico Losurdo - Roger Keeran - Bruce Franklin - Ronald Bachman - Diane Koenker - Ludo Martens - Mario Sousa - Austin Murphy - Roland Boer - Dennis McKinsey - Herbert Aptheker - W.E.B Du Bois - H.G. Wells - Sidney and Beatrice Webb
And concerning the famines (with your again exaggerated numbers), USSR ended them once and for all in Russia even though they existed for centuries before.
Was Soviet Union's economy unsuccessful? From its inception in 1928, to the point at which it was dismantled in 1989, Soviet socialism never once, except during the extraordinary years of World War II, stumbled into recession, nor failed to provide full employment. [1] What capitalist economy has ever grown unremittingly, without recession, and providing jobs for all, over a 56 year span (the period during which the Soviet economy was socialist and the country was not at war, 1928-1941 and 1946-1989)? Moreover, the Soviet economy grew faster than capitalist economies that were at an equal level of economic development when Stalin launched the first five year plan in 1928—and faster than the US economy through much of the socialist system’s existence. [2]
Adam Clark
To be sure, the Soviet economy never caught up to or surpassed the advanced industrial economies of the capitalist core, but it started the race further back; was not aided, as Western countries were, by histories of slavery, colonial plunder, and economic imperialism; and was unremittingly the object of Western, and especially US, attempts to sabotage it. Particularly deleterious to Soviet economic development was the necessity of diverting material and human resources from the civilian to the military economy, to meet the challenge of Western military pressure. The Cold War and arms race, which entangled the Soviet Union in battles against a stronger foe, not state ownership and planning, kept the socialist economy from overtaking the advanced industrial economies of the capitalist West. [3] And yet, despite the West’s unflagging efforts to cripple it, the Soviet socialist economy produced positive growth in each and every non-war year of its existence, providing a materially secure existence for all. Which capitalist economy can claim equal success?
1. Robert C. Allen. Farm to Factory: A Reinterpretation of the Soviet Industrial Revolution, Princeton University Press, 2003. David Kotz and Fred Weir. Revolution From Above: The Demise of the Soviet System, Routledge, 1997. 2. Allen; Kotz and Weir. 3. Stephen Gowans, “Do Publicly Owned, Planned Economies Work?” what’s left, December 21, 2012.
Jow Forums was wrong all along
Oliver Phillips
bump
Asher Carter
You forgot to include these academics who proved that the executions could have been as low as 70,000: - Ben Franklin - Patti Ann Brown - Che Guevara - Robert Moses - Jeffery Niedermayer - Russell Crowe
These are the only ones that I have in my notes. If I summon the spirit of Robspierre, maybe I can find out why those 70,000 were not actually human, so don't count.
The holodomore was an intentional attack on Ukrainian nationalism. (Margolis, Eric. "Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust". ukemonde.com. Archived from the original on 9 September 2017. Retrieved 8 October 2017.) (Bilinsky, Yaroslav (1999). "Was the Ukrainian Famine of 1932–1933 Genocide?". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (2): 147–156. doi:10.1080/14623529908413948.) The death toll was at least 6 million (Уиткpoфт, C. [Wheatcroft, S.] (2001b). "O дeмoгpaфичecких cвидeтeльcтвaх тpaгeдии coвeтcкoй дepeвни в 1931–1933 гг." [On demographic evidence of the tragedy of the Soviet village in 1931–1933]. In V.P. Danilov; et al. Tpaгeдия coвeтcкoй дepeвни: Кoллeктивизaция и pacкyлaчивaниe 1927–1939 гг.: Дoкyмeнты и мaтepиaлы [The Tragedy of the Soviet Village: Collectivization and Dekulakization 1927–39: Documents and Materials] (in Russian). 3. Moscow: ROSSPEN. ISBN 978-5-8243-0225-7. Archived from the original on 20 March 2008.)
Angel Howard
Sure the economic growth was impressive. But its GDP per-capita should have been twice what it was given its level of education and capital goods. Fischer, Stanley; Easterly, William (1994). "The Soviet Economic Decline, Historical and Republican Data" (PDF). World Bank. Retrieved 23 October 2010.
You can attribute their economic problems to the war and lack of an empire or slavery in the past. But being destroyed in the war didn't stop Japan from achieving a higher standard of living than the soviet union. Lacking an empire or slave labor didn't stop Switzerland or Luxembourg. You can blame capitalist interference. But the communist world was also interfering the capitalist world as best they could. So your defense of the Soviet Union, as brilliantly marshaled as it was, doesn't cut the mustard.
Ethan Rivera
all those countries were aided by the USA, while the ussr was all alone
Brayden Ross
>communism wasn't a failure because it collapsed but didn't kill millions of people righto dickhead
Elijah Kelly
Lol the USSR was aided through out most of its early history by (((international financiers))) who bankrolled (((Lenin))) and Braunstein.
Brandon Morris
the death numbers are clealry exaggerated, and the Ukraine famine being deliberate (and treating it the same as the holocaust) isnt true dickhead
Jeremiah Hughes
>ideology being about anti bourgeouise >funded by the bourgeoise Did you get those nazi propaganda conspiracy theories from stromfront you utter brainlet?
Kayden Howard
Absolutely fucking based. About time someone points this out. Communism has literally vastly improved the standard of living in nearly every country it was attempted in, save for maybe three examples.
Not only are you wrong, but that's the opposite of the truth. Almost everywhere communism was implemented, over the long run, life expectancy and caloric intake per capita rose dramatically - the two biggest indicators of a general improvement in society. It's unfortunate that some of these countries had to revert to capitalism and erase these gains.
The U.S.S.R. wasn't all alone. They had China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Cuba.
David Ortiz
It was defeated, not collapsed. Political decisions from the top dismantled the economy first with "market reforms" and then large-scale privatizations. This is what led in part to the economic troubles in the late 80s, but things really went to shit after the privatizations.
Ethan Hall
Ussr was aided by the west the whole time especially the USA
commies killed 6 million jews and blamed it on germany
Isaac Hernandez
You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Western Scholars over-estimated the economic performance of the U.S.S.R. because they didn't take declines in life-expectancy into account. The impressive calories per-capita figures are just artifacts of ignoring spoilage and waste. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12288887nintil.com/2016/05/11/the-soviet-union-food/
Levi Turner
And don't forget socialists states provided a better physical quality of life than capitalist states.
>b-but muh ussr collapsed Dismantling the union wasn't part of Gorby's intention he wanted a social democratic state not a complete subversion than Boris set up a coup against him And now here we are seeing North Korea btfoing everyone
>In academia that Nazi Germany didn't kill tens of millions is literally just common knowledge at this point. The archives have long since confirmed that the official execution count was around 800,000 and literally all modern historians, even rabid antinazis, are now in almost complete agreement that the Holocaust wasn't an act of intentional killing or genocide.
I guess you know how we feel
Noah Rogers
Communism is an effective tool to quickly transform undeveloped countries into industrialized nations. Once that has been achieved it will naturally evolve into a capitalist society. Marxists will have you believe that communism is the next step AFTER capitalism but it is in fact only useful as a jumpstart for backwards countries that need to catch up with already-Industrialized nations.
Robert Fisher
>It was defeated, not collapsed. more dialectic jewry imagine my shock
Hunter Anderson
You are getting causation backwards. Economic collapse caused the market reforms. Not the other way around. The effects of privatization, at least on the micro level were positive overall. (Effects of Privatization and Ownership in Transition Economies)
Noah Diaz
USSR was killed by a boomer shill who had thought they could live as affluent as the west, but then the expectation died out as soon as the west waned as well. Literally it's like a midsummer night's dream, nothing more.
>Lacking an empire or slave labor didn't stop Switzerland or Luxembourg.
Slav labour even held the southern US states back. Colonies aren't even a guarantee of profit. Spain had an immense colonial empire and they were the first great colonial power to precipitously decline. Colonies absorb a huge amount of resources to maintain.
Gavin Green
>Ukraine famine being deliberate (and treating it the same as the holocaust) isnt true >dickhead
I'm sure all the people that starved to death after farming was collectivized felt so good that it wasn't on purpose. I'm sure the starving Venezuelans feel so great that you commies shits make them starve accidentally rather than on purpose.
Zachary Gomez
>- W.E.B Du Bois >- H.G. Wells
Ethan Campbell
I can give you a list of people who think the Earth is flat, and that doesn't mean a fucking thing, you idiot.
Daniel Lewis
>was not aided, as Western countries were, by histories of slavery, colonial plunder, and economic imperialism;
Soviets conquered half of Europe, and then imperialized the Middle-East and Southeast Asia and African countries via communist shitskin revolutionaries.
>bragging that you purged 800,000 of your own citizens like that's supposed to be a low number good joke Comrade, btw Soviet Union failed, as can be observed from the fact that it no longer exists
Ian Adams
How many of those historians maintain the Holocaust did happen?
Jonathan Richardson
so the USSR was just so mismanaged and incompetent that holodomor just sort of happened. and you're advocating for system that lets this happen. at least hitler knew who he was killing
>meme flag
Nathan Ross
lol, where are you getting this shit?
Do you believe Chinese state propaganda about them having clean air also?
>the Holodomor wasn't an act of intentional killing or genocide.
But let me guess, the Holocaust was real?
Angel Rivera
This is such a retarded plead for concession appeal Stop using this fucking hypocritical western moral stamp of putting human life on the top of everything Only your own life has inherent value, everyone elses is only as valuable as much pleasure it brigns to the life of evaluator In case of national scale human life is only as valuable as much it improves the nation Since its impossible to accurately calculate on national scale value of millions of people without knowing exactly who they are or what they would do had they lived, our only methods left are statistical "National development", in itself being debatably evaluatable number, can be plotted as a function of time Approximate derivative thus would be the "natural" rate of national development change over time Indefinite integral of which, with the constant to match factural function of national development over time, will be an expected development without the death of millions Now if we will look what happens after the deaths on appropriately small scale(+-decade in case of this specific function) we can see one of three things - the average delta between the factual continuation of the function and expected development can be negative, approximately zero, or positive If its negative than shit sucks and stalin is an idiot If its approximately zero than stalin is silly and spent money doing things which didnt matter in the end, oh well, arent we all If its positive than good news stalin killed mostly people who would impede national development
If we will take "national development" as gdp than its extreme positive, if its "freedom of expression" than its a rather stark negative, if we will take all such classical values and get the average then it will be averagely positive value Now we can go further and start to get similar values for other our rulers, calculate the average, or maybe mean If its average than he is slightly above If its mean he is noticably above Thus he is ok and did nothing wrong
Liam Garcia
Fucking Ukraine starved every 10 years lel, all of the ussr was starving in 1933 but Ukraine was hit the worst because their local administrators were incompetent and vindictive fucks settling scores.
People politicize the Holodomor for the same reason as the Holocaust, it's super convenient to hang a muh genocide on an opponent
Nolan Torres
>GDP Oh god, no it's the 'but still higher GDP lol' dude again! Here's the reality manager-magazin.de/politik/artikel/a-703860-2.html >Sarrazin: Die Binnenkaufkraft der DDR-Mark war in etwa so hoch wie die Binnenkaufkraft der Westmark. Zwar kostete ein Wartburg 30.000 und ein Farbfernseher 5000 Ostmark, aber das repräsentierte ja nicht den gesamten Warenkorb. Dazu gehörten Lebensmittel, Energie, Mieten und soziale Dienstleistungen. Und so gesehen, konnten Sie für die DDR-Mark in der DDR genauso viel kaufen wie mit der D-Mark in der Bundesrepublik. Sorry for the german reference but there's really no more vividly comparable subject than it.
Translate the text dumb burger Devaluation is due to the exchange rate it has nothing to do with the actual quality of life, in ppp wise there's really not much difference between the west and east Now more than half of the population from the ex-gdr regions is on life support because monetary Integration has literally killed its manufacturing even though it was totally unnecessary Nothing is more soul crushing than the reality of them
>the official execution count was around 800,000 oh well that's perfectly fine then
Brayden Perez
>Bolsheviks
Argument ended. Kys commie jew nigger
Gavin Morgan
First source is some guy's baseless speculation, and second source proves my point. With regards to mortality, you must measure improvements against the same country or similar countries (that is, countries that were at a similar level of development at the time the transition to socialism was initiated), as many of the communist countries started off the heels of a developmentally retarded capitalist country in collapse. Russia in 1917, China in 1949, and Cuba in 1959 are three good examples.
Charles Hall
OP was referring to classical liberals, that is, right-wing pro-capitalists today.
Tyler Collins
>Rome failed, as can be observed from the fact it no longer exists
Hudson Diaz
A bunch of people deny the Holocaust too and I could also give a list of retards with no credibility.
However, there is a caveat. Communists aren't people, and technically murder is when a person kills another person, therefore Stalin really didn't kill that many human beings.
Hudson White
HELICOPTER RIDES ARE TOO MERCIFUL FOR THE COMMUNIST SCUM
