So, about that IQ is genetic and not environmental hypothesis, I'd like to hear Jow Forums arguments for it.
Let's take Africa (mostly sub-Saharan) for example, here are some arguments from the proponents of environmental hypothesis that I've seen.
>Africa is hotter and the breeding ground disease-carrying insects which prevents large population density that allows for urban development. Europe would have been hit even harder with diseases had the climate been as hot as Africa.
>Africa lacks good locations for ports and lacks the right kind of trees for building large ocean-going vessels
>Africa lacks good domesticated animal breeds. For example, they lack good horses for use of cavalry and transport which didn't help for any sort of expansion
>Africa not having harsh winter and lacking the incentive for innovation is actually an environmental factor for their lack of achievements
>Africans in developed nations do better than their counterparts left in Africa and even better than natives of those developed nations.
That is related to OP image.
Nathan Evans
Africa doesn't have harsh winters so they never had to learn to think ahead in order to survive a yearly season that could easily kill you.
Carson Bell
>Africa is hotter and the breeding ground disease-carrying insects which prevents large population density that allows for urban development. Europe would have been hit even harder with diseases had the climate been as hot as Africa. Europe had diseases and they also had winter. They had to produce food for the entire year in the 6 months the climate allowed for crops. >Africa lacks good locations for ports and lacks the right kind of trees for building large ocean-going vessels False they have plenty of trees and their position on the Indian ocean was superior to Europe, which you may have noticed had to sail all the way around the continent in order to trade with Asia >Africa lacks good domesticated animal breeds. For example, they lack good horses for use of cavalry and transport which didn't help for any sort of expansion. Show me evidence that Africans attempted to domesticate their animals Show me evidence that wild African animals differ temperamentally from wild European animals Show me evidence that domestication would have been even slightly more difficult, let alone impossible By "evidence" I mean scientific peer reviewed experiments, not a page from an ideologically motivated geography major's novel >Africa not having harsh winter and lacking the incentive for innovation is actually an environmental factor for their lack of achievements No it is an advantage that they did not realize. There was nothing stopping them from doing what Europeans did, they were simply content not to until White people showed up. >Africans in developed nations do better than their counterparts left in Africa and even better than natives of those developed nations. Either white admixture or the 1st generation children of the top 1% of the top 1% of Africans with the skills necessary to be allowed to immigrate to developed countries.
The colonial era was the last time there was true equality of opportunity from all races.
Samuel Gomez
SO, i guess I should let my race die out then and be conquered, because we did bad on a test.
If you say so, Chaim.
Lucas Walker
The environment affects genes.
Camden Anderson
You say that harsh winters were a catalyst for innovation, but you ignore that it would also be a catalyst for evolution. Europeans that did not build homes with enough insulation or failed to gather enough fuel or food during the warmer months died off. Leaving behind only people who could forgo instant gratification for long term goals. e.g. Not eating all of the food you obtained prior to winter and storing it via smoking or salting.
Another thing you failed to mention was the massive gap in natural resources between the two regions. Gold, silver, salt, iron, all mineral resources are more abundant in Africa than Europe. In fact every single inhabited continent has at least one country that produces more of every resource than all of Europe (excepting Asian regions of Russia) combined.
Why are you not comparing Asia to Europe? Is it because everything you claimed about Europe was more accurate with Asia and that if the state of the modern world was decided solely by the "best" environment then Asians, whether from the middle east, India, or China, would have been the ones to colonize the world and not Europe?
Grayson Foster
>Africa is hotter and the breeding ground disease-carrying insects which prevents large population density that allows for urban developmen Stopped here. Sage trash threads
Noah Cook
>>Africa is hotter and the breeding ground disease-carrying insects which prevents large population density that allows for urban development. Europe would have been hit even harder with diseases had the climate been as hot as Africa.
Europe used to be full of diseases, including malaria.
>Africa lacks good locations for ports and lacks the right kind of trees for building large ocean-going vessels
Might be true, the mditerranean sea surely made ships more important than elsewhere.
>>Africa lacks good domesticated animal breeds. For example, they lack good horses for use of cavalry and transport which didn't help for any sort of expansion
The horse was likely domesticated very late, maybe less than five thousand years ago, and breeds big enough to carry a man might not be common until much later. It's a pretty useless animal except for its use in transport. Bantu expansion happened entirely without horses, across much of Africa. Sahara is what almost completely prevents expansion beyond Africa.
>Africa not having harsh winter and lacking the incentive for innovation is actually an environmental factor for their lack of achievements
Much of Africa has pretty harsh climate, with cold and dry season. On the contrary, It might be because the fertile crescent and India make agriculture so easy, that enough people people were free to work on other things.
Camden Cook
Yeah, surviving in a jungle / desert isn’t hard at all. My god, are you completely and utterly retarded?
Joseph Ross
Literally the same shit applies to hot weather. Plus, the savannah and jungles have way more dangerous animals.
Logan Peterson
I mean rainy and dry seasons
Elijah Sullivan
I thought asiatics were supposed to be smart. Harsh winters environmentally select for those able to successfully plan ahead, and cull those who fail every year.
Julian Taylor
> way more dangerous animals. If your tribe has trouble with an animal, your tribe is going nowhere regardless. Besides Europe had lions, Mammoths, and Rhinos. Same with Asia.
>use merit immigration to displace high skilled natives in favor of high skilled migrants who accept lower wages >these meritorious migrants have children that do better in schools because meritorious migrants are smarter than the average person from their native country >use the scores of their children to extrapolate results to the natives of their home country to justify open borders
Christopher Brooks
North Eurasia had no civilization to speak of until something like a thousand years ago. It's the very latest part of the world to get civilized. Rome, Greece, and other ancient European civs. were limited to places where winters are jsut rainy and you could cultivate year round.
Easton Roberts
Jungles are more chaotic It's harder to deal with predators than climates that follow a strict schedule.
Grayson Hughes
>if the state of the modern world was decided solely by the "best" environment then Asians, whether from the middle east, India, or China, would have been the ones to colonize the world and not Europe? Not disagreeing with your post overall, but the Mongols basically conquered all of Eurasia and their genetic signature still lingers everywhere from Turkey to China.
Nicholas Adams
Most of Africa are fertile plains where wild fruits and game exist in abundance. You are a total moron.
Henry Kelly
No one ever claimed IQ doesn’t environmental component. It is heavily genetic and with enough mental strength you can push yourself and raise your IQ 20-30 points
Noah King
>Eurasia We are comparing Europe to Africa, not Europe and Asia to Africa Also easily attributable to the fact that Europe had no native cereal grains and very few other native crops, Therefore they were dependent on Mesopotamian crops and it took a long time to spread the crops and then cultivate them for the Colder temperatures. One example is wheat, which in Mesopotamia was planted in the fall, germinated over the winter, and was harvested the next fall. In Europe the crops just died over the iwnter and that lead to the development of spring wheat, which could (obviously) be planted in the spring and harvested the next fall, albeit with less nutritional content, especially protein.
Charles Phillips
>Why are you not comparing Asia to Europe? Is it because everything you claimed about Europe was more accurate with Asia and that if the state of the modern world was decided solely by the "best" environment then Asians, whether from the middle east, India, or China, would have been the ones to colonize the world and not Europe?
They were the places where civilization started. Europe wasn't civilized until millenia later.
>black students from families with a household income between 80k and 100k scored lower on the SAT than whites from households making less than 10k
Luke Walker
>you can push yourself and raise your IQ 20-30 points No you can't
Camden Johnson
and? By that logic, Asians had a head start over Europe as well as an objectively better environment than Europe.
Jordan Phillips
Yes you can, its called education. And that is about max. Just going to college like a casual isn’t going to do much. But reading and studying throughout your life will raise your IQ considerably
Jason Allen
t. retarded nigger
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about
Benjamin Reed
No you can't IQ is not a test of what you know. IT doesn't ask you what the capital of France is, it asks you to solve logic puzzles and grades you by how good you are at it.
Easton Cox
How new are you? There is a difference between fluid and crystallized intelligence. Lurk 6 million more years.
Nolan Myers
>Africa not having harsh winter and lacking the incentive for innovation is actually an environmental factor for their lack of achievements
Id sum this up as if you have a population that selects out physical weaker individuals then strong ones will continue to survive. If you combine this with nothing to select for advanced intelligence then the only chance for a more intelligent individual to spread his gene is to also be one the most physically dominant. Both of these things are highly unlikely.
Also remember, africans when compared to other great apes are very cunning and far more advanced. Its unfair to judge them against whites.
Sebastian Morris
>Thinking we'll assume the methodology was fair and undoctored in a modern school. This shit only works with cuckservatives.
Samuel Thomas
The much hardier rye used to be the main crop in Europe. It is still common in many places. The mongol empire was enormous, Both China and India are limited by heography, making land conquer impractical and China never really sought conquest, even though they had ships.
Brandon Cooper
Nigger babies were given to white parents and the nigger still had lower IQ than a white baby given to black parents. There is 0.7% genetic diversity between a white and a nigger, that's the same amount of genetic diversity bewteen different species of apes. If we evolved different physically then we also evolved different psychologically and mentally. Or do you think evolution only works from the neck down?
Environment was largely disproved by twin studies. IQ is at the current academic opinion to be 80% heritable at the least. Never mind that there are over 200 SNPs that range from 100% to over 4000% less likely to appear in blacks that have a r^2 correlation higher than 0.7 in regards to intelligence via mathematical ability etc. If you assume best case scenario this accounts for at minimum a standard 15 point deviation from the mean IQ in humans but could be potentially larger.
Never mind the twin studies results.
Cooper Rodriguez
Africa includes norf Africa you racist fuck.
It's only Sub Saharan that's sub.
Adam Martin
>The much hardier rye used to be the main crop in Europe. It is still common in many places. Rye is native to Mesopotamia. It did better than wheat in Europe. That doesn't mean Europe had any kind of agricultural advantage over Africa. Let me ask you this. Is there a crop that is currently grown in Europe that cannot be grown in Africa? What about the reverse? > Both China and India are limited by heography assuming you meant "Geography", you are comparing countries to a continent, besides China is almost the same size as Europe. 9 million km^2 vs 10million. >China never really sought conquest, even though they had ships. Sounds like a human problem not an environmental one.
Oliver Phillips
India is pretty toasty. Why can't Africa deal? There are clear ports on the east side which allow transit to Asia, and had plenty of trees they could turn into planks. India domesticated elephants. Why can't Africa?
Gavin Turner
Quality poster. Also Ryan Dawson BTFO by proxy :^)
>Is there a crop that is currently grown in Europe that cannot be grown in Africa? What about the reverse?
Certainly. many crops need low temperatures that makes growing them in Africa impossible. The reverse is also true. >> Both China and India are limited by heography assuming you meant "Geography", you are comparing countries to a continent, besides China is almost the same size as Europe. 9 million km^2 vs 10million.
I mean the geography makes it difficult to expaind beoynd their historical areas, India is surrounded by mountain ranges and China is surrounded by deserts.
>Sounds like a human problem not an environmental one.
All of these arguments put the cart before the horse. >If only africans had the exact conditions that europeans had then they would be just as smart. I don't disagree with this on a long scale time frame. If you have conditions that select out feeble minded individuals then you will have a smarter society, but this takes thousands of years to reach a level where cultural evolution could take place.
Think about why gorillas are unable to speak any human language. You might just say they do not have sophisticated vocal chords like we do which is true. What is arguably more important is that they lack certain areas of the brain that humans have that would be necessary to understand words or physically process them.
We think of the brain as being abstract, but it is a physical organ and has limitations. Many Africans lack certain areas of the brain that were selected out for and developed through millenia of evolution.
Jonathan Bennett
>Certainly. many crops need low temperatures that makes growing them in Africa impossible. The reverse is also true. Then name one >I mean the geography makes it difficult to expand beyond their historical areas, India is surrounded by mountain ranges and China is surrounded by deserts. And Europe is surrounded by the Atlantic, the Mediterranean and the Eurasian steppes. expanding outside of Europe was no less difficult.
KEK this argument still Yes, surviving a winter climate is infinitely harder then one that stays warm all year round.
Benjamin Morgan
Have you ever met an indian or black fucking doctors they are utter shite.
>thinking the world scores all their exams with the same questions and scoring system
Dont reproduce you fucking retard
Christopher Hernandez
The teachers in the UK are afraid to give British students "extra attention" for fear of being called racist. There was an entire documentary about this. Of course this isn't everything but it certainly plays a role. Imagine being a male British youth in the UK...
Joseph Ross
>Because a huge mountain range has ways and means to traverse it if you know how, it's somehow not a dirty great mountain range to climb Grasping at straws m8. That's like posting a picture of a Landrover to show how the Sahara isn't completely untraverseable.
Carter Jenkins
Man you're dumb.
Xavier Harris
Then name one
Most fruits need winter, C3 grains also grow poorly in too much heat. There is usually enough crops for any cultivated palces, so why is it important?
Charles Bell
What are you talking about? I'm saying the opposite, that mountain rangers are barriers that limited expansion.
Camden Hughes
Except for some reason in the case of Europe because you need a non human reason for why Africa is a shithole, because the truth is racist and we can't be having that.
Mason Anderson
>Banana. Apples. Not sure which direction you find important. Obviously if more and better plants could be grown in Africa than in Europe, then Europe could not have an agricultural advantage over Africa. Apples and bananas can be grown in Africa. Bananas cannot be grown in Europe without greenhouses. smallstarter.com/get-inspired/apples-grown-in-africa-meet-the-kenyan-entrepreneur-making-money-from-red-apples/ bananalink.org.uk/content/where-bananas-are-grown The Ural mountains then. Doesn't change anything. Freezing cold for winter and soggy mud for most of the rest of the year is not an ideal route for expansion. Just ask Napoleon or Hitler. There is a reason Europeans started sailing around Africa and then Columbus sailed west after Europe was cut off from trade through the Eastern Med instead of going North of the black sea >Then name one Coffee, chocolate, oil palms, rubber, papayas. >There is usually enough crops for any cultivated palces, so why is it important? Because Africa and Asia had massive head starts over Europe, by virtue of having native crops, especially grains, they did not need to transplant to a vastly different climate.
Parker Gray
>So, about that IQ is genetic and not environmental hypothesis, I'd like to hear Jow Forums arguments for it. Its both, obviously. Its the entire nature vs nurture debate. Its clear that both genetics and culture/environment factor into achievement and IQ.
This documentary touches on native British children education.
Lincoln Scott
Couldn't list a single one. As expected. Also you don't seem to know the difference between crops and planets anyways, illiterate-kun. I'll give you a piece of advice since I'm such a nice person. You're wasting you're time, he's right and you are wrong.
Jaxon Miller
Being educated helps with pattern recognition. It has been shown you can raise your IQ. What the hell even is “general intelligence” precisely? Sure whatever that means may never change cause your brain stays about the same, but you can learn to recognize patterns better and you can learn new info. You absolutely can raise your IQ 20-30 points but that is about max for try hards.
Levi Barnes
Bullshit. Maybe a couple of point if you practice the test, no way no how are you getting 2 standard deviations though. That's normie to genius. Just doesn't happen.
The usual varieties won't flower without winter, making your point invalid, it must be specially bread varieties that can bear fruit in the tropics.
I think you overestimate how much Africa is a shithole. Have you seen Nairobi?
I named two ranges of crops that cannot be grown in the tropics. I still don't see how it's an argument against or for anything, as there is enough crops for any climate. Fruits are also crops.
Jonathan Myers
I can name no worse shitholes on earth than exist in Africa. At their best they are around the worst of eastern Europe. This somehow becomes impressive simply because there's niggers involved.
Julian Ramirez
>it must be specially bread varieties that can bear fruit in the tropics. Just like virtually all crops grown currently in Europe. Africa had more and better native crops than Europe. Africa is far more suitable to growing imported crops than Europe. Why are you denying Africa has an agricultural advantage over Europe and the current economical, or technological disparities can not be explained by Europe being a better location for growing crops? >I named two ranges of crops that cannot be grown in the tropics. Where? You named bananas, which are tropical, and apples which are currently being grown in Africa
Nathaniel Foster
>Why are you denying Africa has an agricultural advantage over Europe and the current economical, or technological disparities can not be explained by Europe being a better location for growing crops?
I'm not denying that, In fact I used in an argument why Europe was civilized so late. Where? You named bananas, which are tropical, and apples which are currently being grown in Africa
Ethan Cooper
>I'm not denying that, In fact I used in an argument why Europe was civilized so late. Fine then. That was my point to.
Easton Ortiz
Europeans absolutely suck at pattern recognition. They are sensitive for patterns, but they suck at selectivity. Which even results in a specific way of talking where everybody is responsible to be careful not to say anything that could confuse people (which is virtually impossible to emulate for others withou special training)
Connor Richardson
No they don't. Unless you mean willful ignorance surrounding race.
Jason Perry
Well, the problem with the arguments you're bringing is that there are exceptions. India and MesoAmerican had hot climates, and not all of Africa does. Likewise, there are good locations in Africa for ports as evidenced by the fact people later built them. This is ignoring the fact that there are plenty of early civilizations without large ocean going vessels. As for livestock, MesoAmerica had none. Llamas for the incas of dubious value.
You're going to run into issues of sampling. You'd often be comparing the elite of Africa to the mediocre of whatever country.
Alexander Allen
Yes, they do. They can see patters where none exists. It is the reason for the perception why the Chinese lie so much, because for the Europeans what is sayid implies things that woudl be seen as bizarre by jsut about everybody else. People who learn English need special traning (in addition to the language itself) to spot and avoid these patterns, becuse they don't learn them on their own.
William Martin
His point is that they still managed to build a civilisation in harsh, hot conditions whereas blacks did not
John Murphy
>The race largely responsible for *ALL* scientific endeavour to date suck at pattern recognition No, they really really really REALLY don't.
Jayden Barnes
/THREAD
Liam Johnson
From the same report, fag. >White students have fallen from over-performers to under-performers on average over the three decades. Hmmm, I wonder what could have happened. In a matter of a single-ish generation too.
Asher Jones
They really, really do. Occasionally, soemone among the millions spots something that is actually true, but it's more like winning a lottery, rather than genuine intelligence.
Not better, only different tradeoffs. Asians are good at spotting patterns without the drawbacks.
Zachary Foster
>So, about that IQ is genetic and not environmental hypothesis, I'd like to hear Jow Forums arguments for it.
That's what heritability estimates try to determine. In America, in 2019, height has a heritability of .80-.85, or 80%-85% of the variance in height in America is due to genetic factors, 15%-20% is due to environment. This isn't controversial at all. As soon as you do the same type of study for intelligence people lose their minds.
The heritability estimates for the variance in intelligence in America in 2019 is .80, or 80%.
Estimates for the heritability in the variance in intelligence in Africa would be different due to a greater range of environments. In America the range of common environments that children grow up isn't nearly as extreme. We don't have child soldiers, chronic malnutrition, water full of amoebas, ect.
Because the environmental factors are greater in Africa the average IQ of Africans born in the West is higher than in sub-Saharan Africa due to removing negative environmental factors. The issue is that the increased IQ, on average, is only ~82 as compared to average IQs in different parts of sub-Saharan Africa that range from 62-78. That's a big increase but not big enough when the Average White, Asian and Ashkenazi Jewish IQs average at least 1 standard deviation higher. Additionally the European admixture in American Blacks, which on average is 25%, skews the average Black IQ higher as many studies have shown that the lighter the skin color the higher the average IQ.
Until political correctness an 82 IQ was considered to be cognitively deficient and a significant portion of Black Americans have an IQ below 82.
Blake Sanchez
Absolute tripe mate, Jesus Christ... Now you are just making fucking excuses. "europeans just get really really really lucky compared to everyone else, that's all!"...
Andrew Howard
/thread
Samuel Walker
It is the reason why Europe is so obsessed with pattents (it's a "rare genious" we need to reward as much as possible) while the Chinese see no reason for them (it's nice you were the first one to solve a problem, but just about anyone else will also solve it just as well, so why give you any sort of privileges jsut because you happened to be the first one)
Matthew Hernandez
Friend, it is a simple point of recorded history that science was invented in and largely advanced in Europe. Watts, Newtons, Pascals, Curies, ALL OF IT. China isn't even on the map in that regard.
>muh gunpowder and paper No, there are a handful of things that comes from china. Literally about 5 or so things historically. The vast majority (we're talking 95%+) is down to Europeans.
Owen Collins
the chinese see no reason for patents because they are inherently mimickers. The trade deals the US has set up with them require us to give them the designs for the products we sell in their country, which they use to make copies of and then undercut the product so we don't sell any to them anyway. They have no concept of intellectual property rights, because stealing/copying ideas is part of their culture. Their education system is built on the premise of cheating/bribing your way to a degree, whereas in most places it happens but it's considered corrupt, not required.
Adam Cruz
And the reason for it is because solving a problem isn't such a rare event as it is for Europeans. It's such a common ability it doesn't make sense to give people privileges because of that.
Jeremiah Turner
You can't just raise IQ with education. It doesn't work like that. 20-30 points is impossible. Maybe 5 max. And even then that is pushing it. Environment has minimal effect on IQ.
That describes an increase in the IQ of a population as time goes on, not in individuals. They also don't really know what's behind it.
Blake Kelly
enviroment influences genetics over time you chicom scum
Ethan Allen
It's also in decline in western countries and masks the IQ gap between ethnic demographics. Hell proponent of Flynn effect often reject twin studies as evidence and have been known to be quite against hereditary IQ, which is commonly accepted in neuroscience. The problem is that it's support comes from an incestuous branch of psychology. These are the same people who got Chris Brand sacked despite his work on the g factor and intelligence heredity being proven in studies.
