Real Communism

anarchism is the end goal of marxism but there are also other schools of thought in how it should be achieved that are also leftist

basically the marxist belief is that you can't achieve an anarchist society without going through socialism and rewiring people, breeding capitalist ideals out of them

> obviously these are general guidelines
well I want to know details of your utopia's societal structures & practical functionalities if you want me to advocate your plan
> cummunist utopia is capitalist production at maximum
lmao how the fuck does this work?
> why would there be no property?
I meant private property to steal, everything is public property in cummunist utopia, but since yours has also private ownership, I would like you to answer this question again.

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How are decisions made in cummunist utopia? By majority vote? That sounds hierarchical desu.
How do you force the majority's resolution on minority in a society without a hierarchy or authority?
How can you stop minority from implementing their own solutions?

Yup. Failed spectacularly everywhere. Didn't matter the country, wherever it went, pestilence, famine, disease and revolutionary warfare followed. Humans are covetous beings. Can't limit them. They limit themselves.

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you couldn't steal personal property in a communist society.

>lmao how the fuck does this work?

what do you mean?

There was never real communism. Communism is, sadly, impossible because of the human nature

I attempted it yesterday, it didn’t work.

>How do you force the majority's resolution on minority in a society without a hierarchy or authority?
we are talking about a post-socialist communist society where people basically agree on how things should be done.
>How can you stop minority from implementing their own solutions?
why would you want that? the idea is that people are free to make their own decisions, hence why it's an anarchist society. as long as you don't infringe on others you're fine.

> you couldn't steal personal property in a communist society.
Why is there need for such a concept as personal property in cummunism?
What is difference between personal property and private property?
Doesn't my personal property turn into public property in cummunism, if I offer services to others with the said personal property?
If private property covers means of production, what stops me from disassembling a mean of production and claim the parts to be my personal property?
Why would you waste resource producing more than say (hypothetically) 1 hammer/toothbrush per 7 persons?
> what do you mean?
how does cummunist utopia have "capitalist production maximised"

If the USSR wasn't real communism then Nazi Germany wasn't real fascism

> where people basically agree on how things should be done.
and what about further in time when they develop differing opinions on solutions to a problem? How are decisions made then?
Do you honestly expect there not to be any disagreements on implementation of solutions when tech is supposed to improve in cummunist utopia too? lmao
> why would you want that?
because of different opinions on what would the best solution to a problem.
> the idea is that people are free to make their own decisions
so minority could also go back to capitalism if they so wish? neat!
> as long as you don't infringe on others
how is the prevention of infringement enforced in a society without hierarchies or authorities?

>Why is there need for such a concept as personal property in cummunism?
because people have belongings that belong to them?
>What is difference between personal property and private property?
Personal property is your stuff. Private property is the means of production. Anything enables exploitation, like a factory is private property and needs to be abolished.
>Doesn't my personal property turn into public property in cummunism, if I offer services to others with the said personal property?
If you're a landlord you are no longer a landlord. You can't offer people a house and charge them rent.

>If private property covers means of production, what stops me from disassembling a mean of production and claim the parts to be my personal property?
nothing I guess. as long as you're the only one working it.

>Why would you waste resource producing more than say (hypothetically) 1 hammer/toothbrush per 7 persons?
because you get things in exchange?
>"how does cummunist utopia have "capitalist production maximised"
what do you mean dude? communism is literally capitalism with all the bad things taken out.

>so minority could also go back to capitalism if they so wish? neat!
yes, they can go and live in a capitalist society somewhere. they are free to leave.

> because people have belongings that belong to them?
but there's no private property in cummunism so how can there be "personal" property? How come is it not the same thing?
> Personal property is your stuff. Private property is the means of production.
> Anything enables exploitation
So I can turn my "personal" property into private property, got it.
> as long as you're the only one working it
why would that matter when the mean of production is public property at that point?
> because you get things in exchange?
such as?
> communism is literally capitalism with all the bad things taken out
lmao this shoe size IQ view, elaborate

The whole purpose of communism is to create a kleptocracy where the means of production are controlled by the ruling party, once the wealth is taken away from the people it is very easy to enslave them to do your bidding.

But in order to brainwash people into believing it will create a heaven on earth you need a bunch of stupid people a.k.a useful idiots to moralize and intellectualize this bullshit to people who are not privy to communism.

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> live in a capitalist society somewhere. they are free to leave
what if they want their "personal" property like their own house & land incorporated to their capitalist society?

Dismantle the house and ship the bricks and shit over

First off, define "Real" as it has a diffirent to alot of people even with the slightest change of opinion makes it two diffirent "Real" things, and you can see how fucked up this gets when you add more people with a slight change.

you can't dismantle allocated land and ship it away lmao

>USSR
>Nazi Germany
Which one of these was real Socialism and why was it neither one and why has that never been attempted?

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The USSR was socialist. Nazi germany was just capitalist.

>we are talking about a post-socialist communist society where people basically agree on how things should be done.
Thousands of years of human history have shown this to be complete nonsense. The idea that history is "progress" is a farce. You can look at various civilizations and see they all go through the same crisis and collapses, but the fact patterns are tweaked to fit the current time in which they exist. For the west it is the faustian destiney of power. For the east it is arrogance and complacency.

What incentive do I have to agree with people who may not hold my best interests at heart? Why should I cooperate with the community if I find a better way to do my own work (i.e. property ownership). These are fundamental questions that Marx glosses over with simplistic explanations that are not nearly as nuanced as you think they are.

>the idea is that people are free to make their own decisions, hence why it's an anarchist society
The only possible way to enforce this ideal is through violence. Without the practical application of violence gangs form to uphold their own interests. Rome started this way. The mongols came to fame because they rode from the windswept plains of Mongolia, which was the closest thing to anarchy on the planet at that time. Even the Lakota Sioux understood this fundamental truth which is why they forced off every other tribe in the area. "Sioux" is not the name they gave themselves. It was a name given to them by the tribes they attempted to wipe out and it can roughly be translated to "enemy." "Lakota" is what they called themselves which translates to "the people." Structured violence is a fundamental principle that makes human society works. You call it oppressive exploitation, I call it hierarchy and human interaction. There is no system you can create where someone doesn't get screwed. The communist "utopias" of the 19th and 20th century understood this which is why they were structured the way there were.

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>National socialists
>strict social policies
>social codes of conduct
>social services

Modern leftists are nothing but butthurt brainlets

Third Reich was actually heavily socialist lmao, they even had to forcibly unify various industrial private companies through corporate fusion and created a state owned company that took over all the private industrial companies. Effectively the same what was done in Lenin's NEP.
Additionally all the workers rights, labour compensation & benefits were organised under one state controlled public department, exactly like what was done in USSR.

the economy was majority privately owned and they even made it more private lmao. the nazi socialism thing is a total myth.

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Meme flag

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> having hair dressers & bars function on their own without state interference
> hence whole system was capitalist
lmao, nah, Third Reich also imposed price control on everything what still remained private, and every "private" entity had to fulfil state established production quota before they were allowed make any profit (if they even could with price ceiling lmao).
> and they even made it more private
only to put the blame on the entrepreneurs when their businesses failed due to state controlled & dictated economy, so the state would never be viewed as the failing party lmao.

Of course it's a Swede.

Not enough to call yourself socialist.

socialism always fails, it makes people lazy and unproductive
communism is a fairy tale that thinks they can convert some country or even entire earth (global communism) into one big ant hill but thankfully humans are too individualistic for that to happen

Do you not understand the difference between a pair of shoes or a TV compared to pair of shoes or a TV factory?

yeap, all three of them are private property with different structural forms

private property is property that begets profit through unnatural means. if your money makes money then that is a failed society.

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>any attempt at socialism is an attempt at communism but communism only happens once you no longer need the state
It is impossible to attain "real" Communism because Communism is unnatural.

In order to become Communist, a Socialist state must become more and more tyrannical and evil in an attempt to oppress the natural instincts people have. Eventually that tyranny causes the Socialist state to collapse.

>private property is property that begets profit through unnatural means.
Trying to make people act unnatural (aka Communism) is unnatural. Communists believe race, gender, borders, nations, human will, human desire etc don't exist/matter so Communists attempt to oppress those natural things out of existence.

> through unnatural means
elaborate
> if your money makes money then that is a failed society
elaborate.
how can it be a failed society when me and my worker have voluntarily with full conciousness entered in a mutually agree contract of reimbursement of his labour with fixed rate?
I'm completely open to do whatever I want with result of this contract, am I not? Including, but not limited to, selling it with higher margin to make some extra cash.

it's not voluntary if you have no real other options. under capitalism the person who controls the capital sets the terms, they just use bullshit rationalizations to trick people. capitalism is implicit servitude.

No. You see my point you're just bein a goof. See, now what the means of production TRULY means isn't even actually property. I think of it more loosely as a corporation, or big business in general. The slavery of people for private gain. To seize it means to not abide, and to burn the contracts. To not show up for work until it's a job for the betterment of all equally. Cut off the fuel of the trash machine that IS capitalism.

>it's not voluntary if you have no real other options.
Communism isn't voluntary. That's why you had to build walls to keep people in and send people to gulags if they go along with the plan.

If Communism worked, you wouldn't have to force it.

>under capitalism the person who controls the capital sets the terms,
Under Communism, the good goy with the gun sets the terms.

>capitalism is implicit servitude.
Communism is implicit servitude of the goyim to the Jew.

>No. You see my point you're just bein a goof. See, now what the means of production TRULY means isn't even actually property. I think of it more loosely as a corporation, or big business in general. The slavery of people for private gain. To seize it means to not abide, and to burn the contracts. To not show up for work until it's a job for the betterment of all equally. Cut off the fuel of the trash machine that IS capitalism.
And yet you think a doctor should be paid the same as a janitor.

So why should anyone actually work hard to be a doctor when they're paid a janitor's wages?

Oh wait that's right. Because the Socialist government will shoot him and his family if he doesn't.

>the trash machine that IS capitalism.
Was real Capitalism ever attempted and why not?

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> if you have no real other options
you could always become a trade entrepreneur and dictate your own terms of labour.
> the person who controls the capital sets the terms
> being this uneducated about functions of economy & markets
lmao your shoe size IQ is shining brightly Abu. Has Aladdin fed you yet?
> capitalism is implicit servitude
how can mutually agreed work relationship be servitude?
> The slavery of people for private gain
is dead concept except unironically cummunist countries lmao
> betterment of all equally
elaborate, define what is "equality" & who has authority to define "equality" in this case?
> if I just don't show up to work, I'll destroy capitalism
are you surprised why your liberal oligarchy overlords are demanding open borders now? lmao
Also, what would you do when the entrepreneur has already moved the means of production to another country, leaving you without the means of production?

I don't think people should be shot. It is just a memeflag.

A janitor is hardly a job that's needed. But, in a large hospital I would say that a janitors job is just as IMPORTANT as the job of the doctor. If the hospital is dirty how good is a doctor?

also, mean that janitors in places where people who are paid more think they're better than cleaning up after themselves they are hardly needed.

>I don't think people should be shot.
And yet it happenes every single day in Socialist countries.

>A janitor is hardly a job that's needed.
And yet according to Communism a Janitor is equal to a Doctor.
Both are workers and both should be treated exactly the same.

> But, in a large hospital I would say that a janitors job is just as IMPORTANT as the job of the doctor.
And thus they should be paid exactly the same, correct?

>If the hospital is dirty how good is a doctor?
If a doctor is paid a janitor's wages and they both live in the same type of substandard housing complex, why would anyone want to be a doctor?
Because they're forced to be a doctor by the Socialist state and are shot if they refuse.

That's why Communism is unnatural. You see to oppress the human nature out of people.

It was plenty of times, but surprise, surprise it always fails, because Marx was a fucking jorno neet that never did a real days worth of work in his life, and lives of daddy’s money, but useless retards still think he was a genius dispite his ideas clearly being disastrous in every nation attempted, because they see them self in Marx, and follow his ideas because they don’t want to work either.

>also, mean that janitors in places where people who are paid more think they're better than cleaning up after themselves they are hardly needed.
So now you're disparaging the workers because you personally don't believe their job is needed?

Not very Communist of you.

> A janitor is hardly a job that's needed.
> workers have to clean their workplaces themselves
wagecuck jannie detected lmao.
> just as IMPORTANT as the job of the doctor
lmao, what is the connection of skils equivalence between you keeping floors clean & doctors pulling bullets out of about-to-die ER patients an then order life saving medication treatment?

Okay, so it isn't for people to *become* equal, it is for everyone's *gain* equally. I don't even like that entire idea of making people equal. It's impossible to make people equal. But it is possible to gear society towards a common goal that would benefit everyone *equally*

communism (and capitalism, for that matter) are like perfect geometric circles. No one is capable of producing a literally perfect circle. They're asymptotes that people aim toward, but will never achieve.

The problem is, and this goes for both capitalists and communists, is that whenever there's a flaw in the societies they've created, they can always just fall back to "well it wasn't real communism/capitalism" and they'll always be able to use that excuse, because like a perfect circle, it's impossible in the real world to ever fully achieve such a thing.

>Okay, so it isn't for people to *become* equal, it is for everyone's *gain* equally.
Equality is a myth. Yet another reason why Communism is unnatural.

>I don't even like that entire idea of making people equal.
That's because all you Communists really want is power.

>It's impossible to make people equal
So you finally admit that Communism is impossible?

>But it is possible to gear society towards a common goal that would benefit everyone *equally*
Not under Communism because Communism denies natural truths.

>how can mutually agreed work relationship be servitude?
I already explained how you retard. Does every sentence you read function in a vacuum where you just forget all context and everything you read before that? Because that's what it looks like to me. I mean I'm all for breaking down points and discussing them but people like you are the fucking worst. You don't have to respond to a fucking sentence if you have nothing to say.

> it is for everyone's *gain* equally
so everybody would earn the same for whatever the job they do, like me acquiring as much goods & services as any ER brain surgeons would thou I can only provide hentai cartoon sketches? lmao
> It's impossible to make people equal
how can they not be equal if everyone gains equally?
> society towards a common goal that would benefit everyone *equally*
how are needs of this common goal defined? Who has authority to define these needs?

>be marx
>alcoholic
>never worked in your live
>scam friends and family for loans an money
>they want their money back
>suprisedpikacu.jpg
>hate capital because you never had any
>treat actual working class communists like shit and threaten them with murder
>never visit a single factory in your life
>never work in your live
>treat own working class housemaid like trash

Communism was never about making people equal you retard, it's about freeing them economically and ending the upwards transfer of wealth.

You have a narrow and dumb view of what communism is and can mean. At this point I think you're trolling, bravo.

your assessment of no options is false, short sighted & shoe size IQ number answer to my point that doesn't even counter it.
You should be able to do better Abu, tell Aladdin to feed you already.

It isn't what people have or have not that makes them unequal you absolute dolt. Some people are better than others, and you definitley are one of those lessers. I do know I probably don't deserve more than you do, which is a quality that makes me better. Nigger

how can they not be equal when they earn equally, regardless whatever people do?
If I making porn earn as much goods & services as ER brain surgeon, aren't we equal then?

>Communism was never about making people equal you retard
It's really about giving the Jews control over the goyim and destroying the White race.

>it's about freeing them economically
by denying nature? lol

>and ending the upwards transfer of wealth.
Because Communists believe success is unnatural.

>You have a narrow and dumb view of what communism is and can mean
You mean I don't believe your communist bullshit?

>At this point I think you're trolling, bravo.
Nope. I'm just not buying your lies.

Because internationalism is the exact problem Marxs points out when he talks aboit capitlaism. His ideology is just as pervaisive, and cultures who have different views on howntheirnsociety should be run have no benefit to be gained from joining that system. Even farmers in capitlaist nations have everything to lose should the urban proles and their socialite masters try and implement it.

Has real Nihilism ever been attempted and what would even be the point?

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> Some people are better than others
> and you definitley are one of those lessers
that sounds very hierarchical t-b-h lad, why do you have authority to define my contributions worth in cummunist society?

>rewiring people
I.e once we beat the individuality out of you via the state and crush your spirit until you are an automaton bug person
Communists are not even humans

this

but socialism fails to result in communism because the precepts of class theory are designed in a manner similar to that of a cult, only missing the leader figure. the leader figure position naturally fills itself when the winning cult-like socialist party ascends to political dominance. on top of that there is no real proof that the marxist interpretation of the classes are accurate to reality, aka they aren't real, then being real doesn't prove universality, and assuming existing and universality doesn't necessitate their interaction functioning as marx assumed.

let's take the example of the racialized class theory idea of "white privilege" with respect to the idea of "being color blind/not seeing race" which suggests an alternative answer to the supposed problem of marxist class conflict where everybody just gets the boon of the ruling/bourgeoisie/capitalist class BY that class.

similarly lets take the emergent idea of trans "valid/existing" - the current efforts of the leftists coopting trap/femboy/twink culture. if you're a passable trap that means you've obtained the ultimate benefits of the target transition state - with effort you can obtain the upper class benefits.

>I already explained how you retard.
oooh the commie is getting pissed. Is calling people retard how Commies get others to become communists?

>but people like you are the fucking worst.
What do you mean "people like you"? That sounds very close to "you people". Are you racist?

You live in it.

All of the people in your life determine how good you are. That is why no matter if you become rich and famous you'll still feel empty inside.

your retardation is stunning. you can't be bothered to do basic research.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contribution

If you're doing an important job or working hard you will be rewarded significantly more.

Personal property cannot exist in a comminust society, its Marx's cop-out so people wont immediately reject it. Should the proletariat determine you do not need your property, or no longer consider it as such, then you have none.

>It isn't what people have or have not that makes them unequal you absolute dolt.
And then you deny things like racial reality, gender reality, and national reality. You think all those things "don't matter."

> Some people are better than others,
And some races are better than others. Some nations are better than others. Some ideologies are better than others. Some religions are better than others. etc.

> Nigger
Would a real communist call someone else a "nigger"?

Lmao when did I say social hierarchies didn't exist you fucking retard? You are 11. Or do you not know or think that there isn't a difference between socioeconomic status and social status?

>All of the people in your life determine how good you are.
Including your extended family aka race
And then there's the land your people reside in aka the nation.

>That is why no matter if you become rich and famous you'll still feel empty inside.
Because you deny God and deny your people. Those are the only things that can fill that empty hole in your soul.

> All of the people in your life determine how good you are
well good thing no such thinking exists in cummunist utopie where there are no hierarchies and authorities over others ;)
> If you're doing an important job
> or working hard you will be rewarded significantly more
who has authority to define my labours worth in hierarchyless society of cummunist utopia?

that's not true you dunce. the soviets never seized private housing or possessions.

You can tell the commie has run out of arguments in defense of his jewish ideology. He's resorting to baseless insults.

>who has authority to define my labours worth in hierarchyless society of cummunist utopia?
it will be determined naturally based on demand. if you're talking about state capitalism then it's the state that does that.

the german sperg started insulting me so I responded in kind. it's impossible to tell you two apart because you seem to have the exact same posting and argumentative style.

> when did I say social hierarchies didn't exist
you didn't, but Marx did when he described the cummunims' functionality in his envisioned utopia. Which is what I've been talking about.
> do you not know or think that there isn't a difference between socioeconomic status and social status?
I do think there's difference between the two, but what is your point?
Neither of these concepts wouldn't exist in cummunist utopia anyway, so why bring them up?

LOL this shit already exists dumb ass, it's called the price system.
Imagine if the government were supposed to define the price of everything unilaterally. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Communists are basically flat-earthers by this point.

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It can work in a small commune of like 10 people since they#ll want to be there and can divvy up responsibilities fairly easily, once you start getting into the nation-sized category is when it goes to shit, unless everyone there is a communist it cannot work, and that'll never happen not a national scale, let alone a global scale.

This is verifiably false.

>the german sperg started insulting me so I responded in kind.
Commies always blame others for their failures.

>it's impossible to tell you two apart
Yeah the ID and flag's are exactly the same.

>because you seem to have the exact same posting and argumentative style.
You mean we tell the truth and refute your communist lies?

> based on demand
> mfw producing porn becomes more important than doctors' work
lmao, the power of cummunism

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>This is held in contrast to the method of distribution and compensation in capitalism, where those who own private property receive unearned income in the form of interest, rent, or profit by virtue of ownership irrespective of their contribution to the social product.[2]

>the soviets never seized private housing or possessions.
You're kidding right?

>inb4 some explanation of how there's no such thing as personal possession therefore the soviets didn't technically seize anyone's homes or items.