I find myself agreeing with certain points of the "incel" view when it comes to dating. Not with the crank shit (which is the woman-hating, enforced marriages, stupid shit like that) but I think they're kind of right about dating altogether.
Dating is being pushed off the streets and into the digital plane, and the digital plane does benefit women a whole lot more than the male one. This I think is creating an underclass of men that have a extremely hard time finding a relationship with another woman. I'm not talking about the cock carousel shit or stuff like that, I'm talking simply that if most dating in the world happens in Tinder and other places like that women have the advantage because
1. Men are much more desperate about being with a woman than the inverse 2. Men are more visually stimulated than women
There are a bunch of studies on Tinder that prove that not only does it not work much at all, it also is pretty stacked against men.
However most relationships are monogamous, so does this mean these women are left alone later in life? The stats of my pic seem to somewhat support the notion that less men cover more women, but most people are still monogamous, so this deficit of men has to be made apparent somewhere else.
Considering this is pretty much an unsolvable problem since it stems from the interaction between humanity and technology, do you think it will always be like this or will it even out later on? What can these men do to compete in a market that is more and more competitive as time passes on?
I honestly don’t know, but I’m very happy that the dating scene came to our phones. I had sexual partners maybe once/twice a year since 2000 and it felt a little unfulfilled for my craving. Now it’s every week/month. And women seem to want in on more threesome dating and such instead of the idea of settling down with one person forever. I’ve seen the stats that men have less sex now than before and that honestly blows my mind. It used to be hard work, having to go out and approach strangers in hope of getting somewhere.
Connor Rogers
If you were able to do it back then and do it now it means you're one of the top men. Most men don't have much luck with e dating at all.
Jeremiah Campbell
>Dating is being pushed off the streets and into the digital plane I totally disagree with this premise, and to me it undermines the entirety of your argument.
Jack Morales
So...where does these girls go for sexy times? Are they all fucking the same fee dudes? Or not at all?
Jace Bell
>Most men don't have much luck with e dating at all. This is simply not true. Incels just keep telling themselves that.
Jace Butler
Tinder and other apps like that are, in general, pretty lousy for actually matching with anyone. >Additionally, data released by Tinder itself has shown that of the 1.6 billion swipes it records per day, only 26 million result in matches (a match rate of approximately only 1.63%), despite users logging into the app on average 11 times per day, with male user sessions averaging 7.2 minutes and female user sessions averaging 8.5 minutes (or 79.2 minutes and 93.5 minutes per day respectively). On the male/female part >However, in March 2015, the website Medium published a statistical analysis quantifying the degree of inequality on Tinder as a dating market. The analysis concluded that "the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. The Gini coefficient for the Tinder dating market based on 'like' percentages was calculated to be 0.58. This means that the Tinder economy has more inequality than 95.1% of all the world's national economies. In addition, it was determined that a man of average attractiveness would be 'liked' by approximately 0.87% (1 in 115) of women on Tinder."[71]
Easton Price
What's basically happening is that woman are all fucking the top tier guys while they are young, then settle for betas as they get older. Most incels just haven't realized that its not their turn yet, once they hit their late 20s/early 30s they will have better luck with woman as the playing field evens out. Woman lose value with age, men gain value with age. In a culture where monogamy is strictly enforced, this dynamic isn't as prevalent, but now enough woman are free to chase the alpha men that lesser men are being left out entirely.
This is an example of how unrestricted mating typically goes in the wild, humans aren't much different when the limiters are removed.
Carter Gutierrez
Like everything there's grains of truth.
Remember a broken clock is right twice a day.
I think its harder for men in the online dating space, but trying to find someone that you're compatible with seems to me a pretty big challenge for both men and women. Women just have a different kind of challenge.
Noah Edwards
I agree. On the other hand it would be reasonable that if men have a harder time with the first contact it’ll affect the following step.
Dylan Parker
Yeah pretty much. I'm a dude and I consider myself pretty average and even I get matches; none have led to anything.
Isaiah Gutierrez
What is the source for the first one? And the second one comes from an incel blog. As mentioned what you said is simply not true.
Dominic Brown
Literally everything you said is wrong and retarded. You repeated incel mantras word for word.
And the second point comes from a study published in medium which is still up today and has decently enough defined methodology to be considered quotable by other sources. And medium is definitely not an incel blog, lol
Cameron Gomez
You cannot have a "top/bottom % of men". This is an incel meme. There is no objective way to measure attractiveness. Every man will have some women who find him attractive and some who won't. Incels are closeted homosexuals and project what they find attractive in a man on all women.
Gabriel Bell
For me, I can't seem to stop finding bitches who just regurgitate normie memes and have shit taste in everything.
Juan Robinson
>There is no objective way to measure attractiveness. Ratio of left vs right swipes omg that was so hard
Elijah Morales
Are you dumb or lying? The supposed tinder study comes from an incel blog. The guy who made it up had no tinder data whatsoever. He sent a questionnaire to 27 girls on the internet. And based on that he somehow claims he has mapped millions of tinder users.
Ryder Lee
Data that tinder doesn't release.
Nathan Scott
What about ugly assholes that have girlfriends, Incels are just socially awkward/stupid/inept and blame women for not liking them, fuck off Incel go back to your niche forum
it's on the rise because so many women are just narcissistic e-whores who only validate themselves through social media likes. I just find most women repulsive and the sane ones are very rare or are in stable good relationships already.
Jason Sullivan
He used ratio of swipes to determine attractiveness.
Brody Lopez
For women, sex and reproduction are rights. For men, they are privileges
Daniel Sanchez
I mean, it's the same way for every mammal out there. Wombs are limited, sperm is infinite. It makes sense that the limited part is more valuable than the unlimited part.
The only thing I hope is that sexbots become advanced enough soon so the loser men such as me can at least know what sex feels like while we're still young.
Josiah Roberts
Not according to the law, but let’s go with your opinion
Samuel Murphy
>Most relationships Here's the fucking issue with incels: all we want is a citation for all their sweeping generalizations. Can't get it, though! They're the flat earthers of the dating world.
Dating is just fine as far as I can tell. About as real as your post gets is mentioning that men seem to be hella thirsty and hella horny all the time. As long as we could solve that, we could probably manage something pretty well. On the other hand you gotta understand that problem is exactly each individual man's problem. You don't GOTTA be thirsty, in fact you generally know for a fact it's bad, but guys still do it despite the large anti-thirst notions everywhere.
So no, they're not right. They could stop being so fucking sex-dependant when they get none. They could stop treating themselves like Casanova gods being shot down. But instead they come to Jow Forums, circlejerk and expect pity despite their problems being entirely self-wrought.
After that, it's really just a matter of personal issues. A lot of these dudes have standards inflated to all hell.
Camden Walker
>the digital plane does benefit women a whole lot more than the male one Well, it adds a safety level for them but beyond that?
>This I think is creating an underclass of men that have a extremely hard time finding a relationship with another woman. Because these men can afford to be complete failures in todays world. Back in the day, their loneliness would've forced them outside and their parents would've forced them to have a job. Now they can jerk themselves to sleep between vidya sessions in their basements.
>I'm talking simply that if most dating in the world happens in Tinder Very unlikely.
>1. Men are much more desperate about being with a woman than the inverse Based on what? Tons of low quality women are also desperate for dating. Hell, even a lot decent ones tend to date complete losers so they won't be alone.
>2. Men are more visually stimulated than women Sounds like a con for the women. Looking good is harder than having a halfway decent personality.
>bunch of studies on Tinder Meme data.
Lucas Cook
Women would rather share Chad with each other than be exclusive with an average guy
Tyler Gutierrez
This is is natural law
Liam Ward
Ive been waiting for realistic sexbots forever
Bentley Lopez
I disagree with these two: >Because these men can afford to be complete failures in todays world. Back in the day, their loneliness would've forced them outside and their parents would've forced them to have a job. Now they can jerk themselves to sleep between vidya sessions in their basements. 27% of men under 30 is a LOT of fucking men. I doubt they're all the stereotype of the useless unemployed failure. For example I fit into that percentage and I've been working since I turned 20 (26 now).
>Sounds like a con for the women. Looking good is harder than having a halfway decent personality. In tinder you make a yes or no decision based on a few lines and a bunch of pics. It's much easier to look good for a few pics than to convey your personality eloquently in a paragraph. I also want to say that being a decent person is the default and it won't get you anywhere dating. You have to be interesting and charming too (and no I am not saying incels are decent people, just that the bar is higher as it should be)
>They're the flat earthers of the dating world. Have you actually looked into it? Or do you believe everything that NASA tells you?
Sebastian Gray
I don't understand why its so hard for people to believe that woman have a huge advantage when it comes to sex and dating, why does this fact upset people so much? We know to be unfair and brutal in most respects, but somehow sexual selection is totally fair and balanced?
>27% of men under 30 is a LOT of fucking men. Yes but we have no data on how many of these actually want to fuck nor how many are dating. (I take you picked the no sex number that often gets thrown around in these discussions) And then how many of these, did something about that want.
>In tinder you make a yes or no decision based on a few lines and a bunch of pics. Sure but it's not like tinder is the only thing there is. Basically any other dating app and scenario offers way more room for personality.
>You have to be interesting and charming too It often runs together with being somewhat decent. To a point obviously. I guess one downside for men OP didn't mention was that they are usually the ones who have to show initiative, which is tricky for the social retards among us (and here the technology definitely contributed to that number of people rising). So let's change it to "being somewhat decent and showing some initiative."
Juan Rivera
Because objectively speaking women have had the raw end of the deal in pretty much everything for centuries so it's hard to accept that nowadays they do have an advantage in some things.
But in this case it is actually just how nature works. Very few penises are valuable, while every single womb is valuable. It's the reason why a farmer has 1 bull for each 20 cows. Penises are expendable and cheap because they work all year round and are always ready to go, wombs are valuable and stop working for months at a time so each one of them counts.
No matter what society and culture does reproduction still works under these terms. The way we chase and pursue relationships is molded by it.
Brody Ward
Because pointing out the truth undermines the pretty good setup women have
All men want to fuck. Only reason those 30% arent is because they cant
Colton Collins
Historically, women were getting a raw deal because most of them wanted to sleep with prince charming but had to settle for peasant billy.
Carter Rogers
I don't think it's a very significant number of that 27% percentage. As a late twenties man that talks with lots of late twenties men I can tell you that the amount of men that think about and want to fuck is pretty much all of them.
That's a fair point but Tinder is the most popular one and has the best male/female ratio, I think. Other ones tend to be much more male skewed.
Most people who live in a first world country is decent. It's where the whole friendzone meme comes from "I was her friend and listened to her and she doesn't want to fuck me! This is so unfair!" Well no shit dipshit, that's just being a decent human being. Being a decent human being doesn't have that much to do with being attractive, its the baseline. If you have no charm and confidence then you can expect having 0 success.
Dylan Long
As someone that was around before Tinder I agree, it's 10x easier to get laid now than in was back then.
However we probably had to develop social skills before Tinder came out, I imagine zoomers probably have trouble as they can just stay behind their screen all their life.
Christopher Foster
They were getting a raw deal because they were weaker than men, and people who are weak ended up being subservient to stronger people. This is how humanity has worked until maybe the last 100-200 yearsm
Jaxon Kelly
As a socially retarded millennial a big part of the problem is how uncertain and tense relations between the sexes are. I was raised being told to respect women, their boundaries, to not annoy or talk to people out of nowhere and similar stuff and flirting with women is incredibly difficult because at its core flirting is invading someone's privacy and pushing their boundaries.
Jack Taylor
Womens strength doesnt matter in terms of reproduction. Men dont care how strong a girl is.
Maybe you could argue that physically weak men were prevented from breeding for most history, but not women.
Isaac Nguyen
I wasn't talking about reproduction. A woman couldn't fend for herself and when pregnant was out of the action for a few months. If a woman decided to not obey her man he could just use his superior physical strength to make her do it. That what I meant.
Why do you think women were weak? Times were tough for everyone. It was a very short overlap people are talking about where men had it fabulous and women had it shit. And that was quickly fixed. Back when only debt free land owners could vote, women didn't have direct political power, but her politics were still influencing her husbands in most of those households. Talking about women not being able to vote when 90% of the population couldn't vote isn't inaccurate, but it is dishonest.
James Jenkins
I had it a lot easier to get women before smartphones. All it took back then was to talk to girls, but now everyone is in a relationship and women don't leave their home to meet me.
Easton Carter
>men wanting to fuck I mean sure, if one could magically summon a fuckbot, I bet the majority would say yes; but as in actively pursuing and upholding a relationshits or even putting effort into hookups and dating apps; I wouldn't be too shocked if a decent part of the 27% didn't want to fuck THAT badly. And I mean the people who generally have no problems with any of the stuff. It's still an investment of time and all.
>being decent is the baseline Yeah but usually you don't need much more. Charm and confidence are important too, but to a very basic level. No need to be someone overly charming or a total Chad to get a date. It's only the complete lack of it that is really a large con.
>at its core flirting is invading someone's privacy and pushing their boundaries. Care to elaborate? I don't really get the privacy thing. As for boundaries sure but it's done in a way the person enjoys it too, so "expanding boundaries" seems more fitting.
To be fair, the last time I had sex was before the first iPhone was released. My problem is more than every women getting married after 3 minutes on tinder.
Jace Howard
>All it took back then was to talk to girls All it took for me was having to go stand around in some horrible club or bar for hours on end, and most of the time it was unsuccesful.
Now I can sleep with more girls than my floppy boomer dick can handle, without even leaving my house.
Jose Rogers
Well I think that comes down to how you wanna count it. I think the ones who have resigned to their romantic failures and don't bother to try should also be count, going by your metric they shouldn't. Its a point of view thing, I can see good reasoning for both of them.
I would say you do need a pretty good amount of charm to land a date nowadays, though. With how easy it is to ghost and cut contact if the first conversation is a bit awkward you're just gonna get cut, she isn't going to stay around to see if you pick your shit up. You have to be on point.
Zachary Stewart
I find that being in a relationship makes it easier for me to get girls to fuck on the side. If that helps your argument or not?
Who? The incel who posted that fake study on his blog? He had no access to tinder data whatsoever.
Parker Morgan
Source: your ass
Kayden Watson
I never understood the bar meme how that was supposed to get girls in any way. Maybe I just get drunk and forget about girls and have a good time instead.
I have an idea on how to use online dating, but I am terrible at taking photos so just taking 5 pictures of myself on different days seems like an impossible task.
Joseph Nguyen
I don't understand why it's so hard for incels to believe it's never been easier for men and women to meet each other.
Blake Moore
I want a personal connection, not just help masturbating.
Levi Brooks
Dont believe everything you see on Jow Forums especially when it comes to women.
Ethan Scott
>I have an idea on how to use online dating, but I am terrible at taking photos so just taking 5 pictures of myself on different days seems like an impossible task.
Get a selfie stick, walk around somewhere interesting filming a video of yourself then find the frames in which you look most attractive.
James Jones
>I just want a personal connection You dont have much experience with women do you? They're not that fun to hang around with contrary to what you may think, women dont need you or really give a fuck about you.
Jacob Parker
Sexual liberation was a mistake, and you have to be deranged to think it could result in a pleasant society. Enjoy single mothers and the malcontents they breed, cynicism, and a lack of motivation for your working mules. You'll all either come to your senses or collapse a society in my lifetime and either way I am looking forward to it. The world as people screamed for it to be is so goddamned dreary.
Carter Nelson
>With how easy it is to ghost and cut contact if the first conversation is a bit awkward you're just gonna get cut, she isn't going to stay around to see if you pick your shit up Well, I was thinking more about dating generally. For online dating and specifically dating apps you're absolutely right.
Though then again, online it's a lot easier to practice and actually nail a great first impression and appear more charming than you actually are with some practice, or trial & erroring.
Even as insecure loser teen who couldn't maintain eye-contact IRL, flirting with girls online and making a great impression for them wanting to meet me was damn easy, specially after getting the hang of what works and why. And then I messed it up face to face due sperging out.
Flirting is invasive of the person being flirted with, it's precisely fun and sexy because it's inappropriate, it is only determined if it is appropriate after the fact. If you flirt with a girl and she doesn't like it then you fucked up and it wasnt an OK thing to do. It's basically gambling.
And with the current climate men are very wary of not having these faux pas. I'm not going to tell you some incel bullshit about how the girl will sue him, but I will tell you that many men are very sensitive about what women think about them and don't wanna be in those shoes at all.
Grayson Cox
Maybe I should just do that. I was thinking about getting a tripod setup instead.
I know multiple women who are an absolute blast to talk to, they are very friendly and very interesting to talk to. They have shown signs they care about me. I would just never hit on them because they are practically married and of they would leave their bf for me, I wouldn't find them appealing.
Nolan Cooper
Incels are lucky. They don’t have to worry about staying loyal to their girl. It’s so fucking hard sometimes
Zachary Lopez
Even simpler than that, drama is just a shitton of work no man wants to slog through.
Andrew Cooper
Why don't incels just have sex?
I don't get it.
Jaxson Nelson
It is gambling but by starting slowly and more on the playful than sexful side, you can manage the risks much better and then ante up. It takes a massive misunderstanding and/or total inability to read the room to seriously mess it up.
Carter Parker
That too.
That takes a certain level of social skills many people just simply lack. Many men (me included) just have zero fucking idea how to flirt because we've never done it and even just getting a "is this guy for real look" is a confidence crusher.
Owen Evans
>That takes a certain level of social skills many people just simply lack. Humans learn a lot by imitation. Observe how successful guys do it and what unsuccessful guys do to be unsuccessful. Try to see the wider picture too and not just the flirting itself. With time you'll notice pretty similar patterns for both.
Oliver Morris
yep lol
Brody Watson
Social skills is such a small part of it. Access is much more important. I live in such a segregated world, most men I know are single and has been for years. It is not just bad social skills, there are just no women anywhere to be found. Back when the government forced girls and boys to interact, everyone hooked up all the time. But ever since I was sold the meme of personal choice, I haven't had a female coworker or costudent. That means I only talk to a few set of women who all are taken.
Austin Walker
Which ones would these be? Not being ironic, I legit would like some advice on how to flirt. I've never done it with anyone because I'm terrified of fucking it up.
Do girls even enjoy being flirted with?
Aaron Foster
Well incels never once post any facts, only fake studies and meme graphs and their homosexual cuck fantasies.
Kayden Martinez
This, too. I can literally count with the fingers of both hands the amount of women I've been with in class/workplace in the last 8-10 years or so. Working in IT does that to a man.
In fact I'll count them. For most of Uni my class was about 60 people of which 3 were women. First workplace had like 4 girls, of which 0 were of my age (they were all mature women). Current workplace has 2 girls, both of which have boyfriends already. That's 9 women I've met and have talked to daily in about 10 years. Where the fuck are the single women aged 20-29? They literally don't exist.
Nolan Hernandez
You can meet single woman on this place called the internet, give it a try.
Logan Turner
>You can ghosted by single women on this place called the internet, give it a try. I mean, I guess.
Ryder Long
It's a huge fucking topic with a lots of small bits that tend to come naturally if you're having a good time with someone, even for most spergs ... dumbing it down to something overly compact ... just view flirting as bantz with sexual bits thrown in. And ideally start with actual bantz in the first place. If you got someone laughing, you can afford to fuck up, unless you go full retard.
One thing unsuccessful people tend to fuck up is seeing it as something too serious and approaching it with the goal to go further while being overly apparent about that. It'd be like having banter with your mate for the purpose to have him help you move or some shit, instead of being in the moment and just enjoying yourself.
There is a trophy to be unlocked if you manage 100 ghostings in a row.
Samuel Barnes
>the digital plane does benefit women a whole lot more than the male one You can't start your post with fallacies if you want an actual discussion. For every "tier of attractiveness" men fall into, there are also women that fall into them.
The issues you're talking about exist only in young children. 18-22 range. As you get old, visual appearance (which is the primary information first presented when using something like Tinder) decreases in importance dramatically after that.
In essence, the only thing you need to take away from Incels are that they are a combination of two factors: 1. The prevalence of digital technology allows men that struggle in social situations to retreat back into familiar territory, and thus never grow out of that phase.
When I was young, I was very shy. Played a lot of computer games, read a lot of books. I was team captain of two highschool sports teams, and in all AP courses but I was still just sort of a weird introverted kid. Since I didn't have a smart phone though, all my time at school was spent face-to-face talking to girls and guys, and I eventually learned how to be socially agreeable. Now that kids can take AIM with them wherever they are, they use that for their primary method of communication ALL THE TIME and never actually learn how to become sociable. This gets them in trouble because:
2. Incels have an external locus of control.
You can look up internal vs external, but the main different is: Internal Locus of Control: When something in my environment isn't the way I want it to be, it is because of something I did/didn't do, and it's within my power to change that. External Locus of Control: When something in my environment isn't the way I want it to be, it is because of outside forces I cannot control. I am a victim subject to the will of the universe and my struggles are not my fault.
Combine those two and you get incels that never grew up and believe that is everyone else's fault/problem.
Samuel Roberts
Based mid twenties boomer.
Carson Rodriguez
Just turned 33 actually... Feelin' OLD these days. fuckin' hate boomers though. (like actual boomers, not neo-Jow Forums teenage definition of "meme boomer").
Henry Sanchez
Most men I know are single too except for the few and one of them is literally just playing the numbers game since he's not much of a looker and got a gf, but a lot of girls hate him because he hits on so many. And women just have very high standards in general and if you fuck up once with them, it's over.
Connor Thompson
It is also self evident. Why the fuck is prostitution a female only phenomenon then? Because deep down women know if they want sex they can get it within an hour, while men have to work for it. If it was equally as hard then attractive men would make money being paid by women to have sex.
Parker Bennett
>Most men are single >No women are single Your math doesn't add up you know.
Tyler White
>Why the fuck is prostitution a female only phenomenon then? It's not.
There is a cultural factor that shames women for seeking out sex while normalising it for males, so a female wanting to visit a prostitute would be doubly stigmatized.
William Ortiz
>Why the fuck is prostitution a female only phenomenon then? Because a woman trawling street corners, approaching strange men in the hope they might be a prostitute is dangerous as fuck? If he's not slinging sex for cash, they run a real risk that her approach will anger him and he'll beat the shit out of her.
kids are really too dumb to understand this?
Tyler Lee
I can't imagine that 27% of dudes really haven't gotten laid. That's insane to me. Women are so easy to fuck these days. I don't see how it's possible not to be fucking, at least once
Andrew Mitchell
Escapism in the form of vidya and social networks, men and women have less casual sex these days.
Jace Stewart
Alot of men these days have male feminist onions attitudes which inhibits them from ever having sex.
Adam Wilson
Like what? I'm more progressive than most women I fucked and never felt "inhibited to have sex".
Thomas Cruz
Because people will blow your genius post over, let me tldr it: >The internet now coddles destructive behaviors through echo chambers >People are putting too much worth outside of their own selves
Jack Robinson
Here’s the data for virginal women. It’s also risen, but not as drastically. I’m gonna go ahead and round it up to 30% for men and 20% for women. So that means for every ten men and ten women under 30, 7 men and 8 women have had sex. A drastic decrease from the 90% ten years ago, but not really as bad as the incels would have you believe with their bullshit 80/20 “””rule”””
