A lot of people like to tout it as such. And a lot of people like to believe themselves to be compassionate and altruistic (even if it's unwarranted). But it always comes with these terms and conditions. And it seems that we only apply altruistic practises *IF* the other person meets certain criteria -- or if we otherwise feel they "deserve" it.
But that's contrary to the concept of altruism and empathy. The fact we'll take it away if the other person doesn't satisfy our standards for it. Example: if they're racist, a rapist, serial murderer, paedophile, do anything that disrupts the lives and safety of those around them. A criteria of individuals that most of us would agree, and find reasonable and sufficient enough evidence, to withdraw any sort of sympathy, empathy, compassion, and altruism for.
Yet, withdrawing those for *any* reason alone, even in extreme cases like rapists and murderers, contradicts the very notion of altruism. Because it shows that we're willing to turn it off, as long as the other persons irks us in some manner. As long as they do something, or have certain qualities about them, that rub us the wrong away, is enough reason to stop being compassionate towards them. And in order for compassion and altruism to truly work, it has to be applied across the board, to all manners of life. Even to the ones most undeserving. Even to child molestors, sex abusers, murderers, bigots. Even those who show no compassion, no altruism, no mercy towards others; not even remorse. And even those who not only harm others, but us as well.
But, obviously, most of us are not willing to do that. Which is always why I have my doubts about the existence of altruism.
'true' altruism doesn't exist, no. there's always somebody who we're not going to give a chance. there's always somebody who we'll drop in an instant and give no fucks about. sometimes it's because of what they did. but you also see others dropping people for belonging to a certain race, or gender, or political class. so unconditional altruism doesn't exist.
Caleb Roberts
>And in order for compassion and altruism to truly work, it has to be applied across the board, to all manners of life. Even to the ones most undeserving. Says who? Altruism and compassion exists but it's conditional. You can pick and choose when you want to take a hit to your time, resources, and health to help someone else (which is what altruism really is).
Henry Stewart
>Says who? The basic concept and functionality behind the two. >Altruism and compassion exists but it's conditional. You can pick and choose when you want to take a hit to your time, resources, and health to help someone else (which is what altruism really is). That's not altruism, then. That's just allying yourself with someone you approve of.
Luke Ward
>Does altruism even exist? In the most sincere sense, no. We are humans, and we act according to what makes us "feel good". In that sense, altruism is just an act to personally feel good, much like virtue signalling or taking drugs.
If you disregard this over-analysis, altruism exists as the most virtuous act in society, because helping others is the best way forward.
>And a lot of people like to believe themselves to be compassionate and altruistic (even if it's unwarranted) Naturally, because compassion and altruism can mean almost anything. Compassion means anything from trying to help the starving children of Africa to taking pity on a serial murderer because he had a rough childhood. There is no consensus on what a good compassionate deed constitutes. Is it compassionate to call the cops on your drug-addicted brother? Some would say yes, some would say no.
>But it always comes with these terms and conditions. And it seems that we only apply altruistic practises *IF* the other person meets certain criteria -- or if we otherwise feel they "deserve" it. Yes, because compassion and altruism with default comes with judgment. Who deserves it is no different from who needs it. A rich Wall Street broker and an African child might both need compassion but it's common to see them very differently. That doesn't mean the compassion or altruism is misplaced, only that we have different views on the world.
>ut that's contrary to the concept of altruism and empathy. No, it isn't. We are free to define our own criteria for who "really" needs our help, and what is worthy of helping. You didn't have the same childhood everyone else did. Perhaps your drunk dad beat you every day. That will likely alter your perspective to how important it is to help children in such situations. Perhaps my mom died of cancer when I was 8, so I am profoundly inclined towards helping people dealing with mom-related grief and loss. >1/?
Philosophy is a bullshit waste of time. Get a job. Work out. Read a history book. Stop wasting your time with this pointless shit.
Hunter Hernandez
Pretty simple dude. We're social animals. In the jungle we depend on the group. Cooperation, selflessness, good acts and genuine care for the well being of others are good for the survival of the tribe as a whole.
Sometimes selfishness works pretty good too. So we kind of evolved both. The brain doesn't have to make sense or be consistent. Being a selfish asshole at times doesn't make the times you aren't less genuine. It's just a Jekyll and Hyde thing of the human condition.
So yes, altruism is real even on a factual evolutionary biological level. You're just letting our darker nature get in the way of accepting that because you expect some kind of consistency that, frankly, evolution doesn't really favour.
Duality is good. Being good doesn't make you any less evil sometimes the same way being evil doesn't make you any less good other times.
Jeremiah Garcia
That doesn't make either of us lack empathy, it just means we use our own personal experiences to judge what is "most" important. Being selective doesn't mean that you don't care, it just means that you aren't infinite, and time isn't infinite. Lots of people want to help everyone in the world with everything, but it's not possible.
>Yet, withdrawing those for *any* reason alone, even in extreme cases like rapists and murderers, contradicts the very notion of altruism. No, it doesn't. Altruism is an act of helping others without concern for yourself. You are still free to judge who deserves that help (because *you* are also worth something), and whether or not that help is worth giving (drug addicts often relapse for instance, so helping such a person could be futile). Altruism doesn't mean you have to be inconsiderate of reality or the existence of personal responsibility.
Actually, I think the last line answers the rest of your concerns. 2/2
>Personal development, enlightenment, and growth is bullshit
Alright bro, thanks for your input.
William Ortiz
When helping someone out, is it a bad thing that I consider not only the good I could do them, but the possible positive effects doing it could have on my image?
Camden Foster
>That's just allying yourself with someone you approve of. What if I try to help someone and I don't want them to be in my life? Like random anons on an advice board who I will never talk to ever again.
Lincoln Ross
No. It's normal. SeeYou can be good even if you stand to gain. The fact you're worried about this even shows you're pretty good. You're just aware of the duality of the human condition.
Xavier Edwards
Those things come from working hard. Not mentally masturbating by deconstructing things that ultimately don't matter.
Zachary Campbell
Consider that we don't do anything that doesn't benefit us in some way. It could be that we want to feel good about ourselves or we have some kind of "poor me" identity or we want to focus our attention to doing for others to avoid really working on ourselves. So there is not such thing as pure altruism. If you want to "change the world", change yourself. It's much harder.
Jayden Jenkins
Studies have shown there is an "altruistic gene" in that it benefits the species for some of its members to be unselfish
Christian Adams
No. Those things come from from introspection.
Consider getting hit by a car. Some people will take nothing from such an experience, noting it simply as "something that happens sometimes". Some people will reflect on their lives from this new experience that life may end at any time. Those that reflect, like OP is doing now, might find some new insight, or enlightenment, about what matters in life or how they want to approach interactions with others. Those that simply "work" without reflecting on the wider implications, will not find any insight nor enlightenment. Hence, working hard will not provide any personal development, enlightenment, or growth. It is just an experience. It is the introspection upon that experience, wherever it may come from, that is important, which is what OP is doing now.
Carter Lewis
Why don't you engage in some actual scholastics about human altruistic behaviour instead of making beg the question threads on Jow Forums.
What you're doing is conflating self-preservation with cruelty (essentially the opposite of altruism), since it's an easy mistake to make.
Unfortunately, if you want a flat answer no, it does not work that way... Ideals do not get to exist properly in our world unless we temper them with knowledge and realism. As said, 'true' altruism doesn't exist-- or at best is not very sustainable.
Noah Jones
>Does true hatred exist? We say we hate people who murder and rape and shit, but we're pretty cool with normal people and sometimes even love them. Hatred must not exist, huh? This is how retarded you sound.
Gavin Martin
It exists, it's exceedingly rare and it comes in a form that most would mistake for not being altruism. For example, a true altruistic human being does not often help others by providing for them or giving advice. Instead they direct that person into the storm that affects them, driving them deeper into their messes instead of away from it.
The confucians recognize a quality within a human being known as Jen which can be best translated into English as having the heart of humanity within a person. Confucius himself said he never saw it fully expressed in his lifetime but he saw glimpses of it and he knew it existed and that if it existed had the possibility of being fully expressed.
Tyler Howard
>Does altruism even exist? Sure. You have people with a mental condition that makes them too trusting and keep getting scammed and taken advantage of everywhere they go.
Angel Moore
It’s a narrow line to walk though, regarding challenges to foster mettle, too much can be just as cruel as too little. To think it can be done precisely and without marginal error is like playing arbiter to natural law Rather than to remove obstacles, just lessen the trauma of failure? Idk man it’s difficult to wrap my head around. What are your further thoughts on this?
Lincoln Price
a saged bump, hoping for some additional perspective on this. It’s hard to grasp my head around this
Henry Gomez
When you possess the confucian quality of Jen there's no hesitation in these circumstances. There's no choosing which method is best, there are no calculations, you act, you're decisive, you're not choosing between options. When you choose you lock yourself into an oscillatory state and this oscillation leads to anxiety and no quality decisions can be made under the duress of anxiety. When you decide you're decisive, when you choose you oscillate.
A human-hearted person knows they are just as much of a fool as the person who seeks their advice. They don't seek to control that other person nor do they assume they know better and dictate the other person's course of action. When a person comes to them with their problems they often stir up their problems to the point of absurdity, usually by sending them as deep into their problems as possible. When a person pushes their problems to an extreme a break happens and this break may not always lead to a happy ending, and if that's the case, that was the course of things. That may seem coldly sociopathic on the surface but the seemingly disastrous result provides a harmonious resolution regardless of the outcome. Now if the break does not lead to the demise of the person involved something extraordinary happens. Some will call it experiencing satori or achieving nirvana or enlightenment, however, I think it's best stated as becoming self-aware in the truest sense of the term and with this awareness comes a heightened state of consciousness that would not have been accessible unless the darkest of darknesses was face head on.
A human-hearted person sees the divine spark in all life whether that person be good or that person evil. They know the two go together as neither good nor evil can exist without the other to provide the contrast for the other's manifestation.
Cooper Bailey
When you possess the confucian quality of Jen there's no hesitation in these circumstances. There's no choosing which method is best, there are no calculations, you act, you're decisive, you're not choosing between options. When you choose you lock yourself into an oscillatory state and this oscillation leads to anxiety and no quality decisions can be made under the duress of anxiety. When you decide you're decisive, when you choose you oscillate.
A human-hearted person knows they are just as much of a fool as the person who seeks their advice. They don't seek to control that other person nor do they assume they know better and dictate the other person's course of action. When a person comes to them with their problems they often stir up their problems to the point of absurdity, usually by sending them as deep into their problems as possible. When a person pushes their problems to an extreme a break happens and this break may not always lead to a happy ending, and if that's the case, that was the course of things. That may seem coldly sociopathic on the surface but the seemingly disastrous result provides a harmonious resolution regardless of the outcome. Now if the break does not lead to the demise of the person involved something extraordinary happens. Some will call it experiencing satori or achieving nirvana or enlightenment, however, I think it's best stated as becoming self-aware in the truest sense of the term and with this awareness comes a heightened state of consciousness that would not have been accessible unless the darkest of darknesses was faced head on.
A human-hearted person sees the divine spark in all life whether that person be good or that person evil. They know the two go together as neither good nor evil can exist without the other to provide the contrast for the other's manifestation.
Mason Martinez
I studied this concept in college. One argument against the existence of altruism is that even when we think we're being altruistic, we're really just doing it for greed, so that we can feel good about ourselves or look good in the eyes of others. I had a situation though in which I think altruism was in fact truly at play. My family had this small and cute dog named Lacy. Lacy would sometimes poop on the carpet when there was no one home to let her out. My mother, upon arriving home would scold the dog, which would make the dog feel bad. One day I got home before mom and saw that Lacy had pooped on the floor. Nothing disgusts me more than picking up dog shit. I could have just left it but I picked it up because I didn't want Lacy to get scolded. I did not derive a pleasant feeling from doing this. It genuinely disgusted me to do so, and I did it knowing that I would receive no reward from the dog. This was back before the internet and I had no idea at the time that I would ever be relating this story to anyone. I simply did the dog a favor in that moment. She probably didn't even understand that I helped her and I was personally grossed out to do so. In other words, I received no psychological or physical reward from my altruistic action. I simply did it (much to my chagrin) to help the dog, who was my friend.
Thanks for clearing it up for me user, I appreciate it. I suppose the part I’m hung up on is the middle part, regarding sink or swim. Naturalistically it’s rings true. Still, I’m hung up on it (basically, since I sank) Going through hell can make you appreciate hell, the hardest thing imaginable makes you stronger than you can imagine, like metal sharpening metal. To be thankful to be tested by evil. And come out having reached a whole new potential. I think I failed it though?
Bentley Carter
What is success? When you finally 'win', when you make it, when you collect all the material items that you desire, when you conquer your competitors so you're the only one left? Everyone wants to succeed yet when they get to the top and have bested all there is to best there's something missing, soon that person realizes it was the competition, the striving, the hunger that made the game enjoyable. And in that way true success is really and truly the biggest failure. You'll see these contradictory themes in all aspects of life, it's almost as if there's a law of reverse effect in play throughout this reality.
I won't go much further than this, I may have already said too much. You'll figure it out user, you're already on the path, see where it takes you.
John Davis
Thank you user
Jonathan Scott
that was such a left turn from what op was saying, it's practically nonsequitur.
