Pedo cult shoots at neighbors

so sick of this kike hoax bullshit. Israel is such a pussy country.

That's cause you bought the storyline you were sold.

SUMMARY

A sect of the Seventh Day Adventists broke off.
David Koresh molded this branch into a cult.
ATF suspected they were stockpiling illegal weapons.
Koresh offered to let the ATF inspect their paperwork but the ATF declined.
ATF obtained search and arrest warrants.
ATF claimed Koresh was running a meth lab - they weren't.
Branch Davidians learned about the raid - Koresh said he intended to talk with the ATF.
ATF decided to go through with the raid anyway as planned.

What happens next is up for debate.
>ATF says Branch Davidians shot first
>Branch Davidians say ATF shot first

Branch Davidians called emergency services within a minute of the shooting beginning to ask them to stop shooting.
2 hours of shooting went by.
Local sheriff called a ceasefire - though the ATF readily admitted they were for the ceasefire cause they were running low on ammo.
Branch Davidians let the ATF get the dead/wounded.
6 hours later ATF breaks the ceasefire.

FBI comes in now.
FBI cuts all Branch Davidian contact to outside world.
Some negotiation happens and the Davidians let some children out.
FBI let Branch Davidians make a video but decided not to release it to the public because it would garner them sympathy.
FBI started fucking with them more.
FBI starts driving Bradleys and M728s around, playing music/slaughterhouse sounds all through the night.
FBI cut all water and power.
Koresh ordered more Davidians to leave - they did and were arrested.
Janet Reno and Clinton okay'd the siege.
FBI decides to blow holes in the wall and pump in tear gas.
Sometime FBI fire pyrotechnic rounds despite instructions not to.
Fires started and everyone remaining died.

A month later the site was bulldozed destroying any remaining evidence.

ON GUNS:

Possession of an automatic firearm is not inherently illegal. Especially if one possesses an FFL or the appropriate tax stamps. Now the often argument falls upon whether or not they were using m16 Sears to be combined with ar15 lowers. This would be illegal except for two things:

The branch Davidians possesses a FFL and ran a gun store out of the compound called the mag bag.

And two, you would have to prove ill intent given that they had a FFL. Ie. That the FFL holder was not intending to sell them to government officers for the purpose of their duties nor that he possessed them for personal use such as luxury/runnimg a gun range.

Koresh swore the paperwork was done legally. He invited the ATF in to inspect both the guns and the papers. They refused. They also conveniently staged the siege while the ATF holder was out of state selling guns at a gun show.

MORE GUNS

>Branch Davidians did not have mines - court documents talking of mines were speculating of mines and concealed bunkers and planned accordingly

>Branch Davidians did not have .50 cal rifles

This is what they had:

61 M16 type
2 M16 type lowers
61 AK 47 type
34 AR15 type
2 AR15 type lowers
13 Shotguns, 12 gauge
11 FN FAL types
10 Ruger Mini-14
7 35mm Flare guns
6 .30 M1 carbines
5 M11/9
5 M14
3 Galil
2 HK SP89
1 HK MP5
1 Air rifle
1 Sten
23 Beretta pistols
13 Glock pistols
8 assorted revolvers
6 Safari Arms pistols
5 Sig Sauer pistols
5 Walther pistols
2 Taurus pistols

The Branch Davidians did not have any M82s. The only evidence ever presented of .50 cal was hearsay provided by 2 people: a neighbour who said he heard a big gun and assumed .50 cal, and a former Branch Davidian who was kicked out. These claims were never confirmed despite having an FBI undercover agent in the facility who frequently shot with the Davidians and Koresh. So these claims were unsubstantiated.

Of the above guns, only 46 were automatic, but as noted before, automatic =/= illegal.

Secondly, of explosives, they had all of 4 live M-21 practice grenades. That is it. And once again, owning explosives is not inherently illegal.

This is completely ignoring the fact that the ATF refused to make any attempts to de-escalate the situation, refused to make any arrests when available, refused cooperation by the Branch Davidians, etc. ad nauseum.

The list of guns I posted was from the Texas Rangers and FBI's subsequent investigation into the cult. It includes all guns found at the compound. There are no .50 cals on that list. The reports of the .50 cals came from the ATF and the Brady Campaign.

Likewise, when you look at the same report in regards to explosives, it is largely unlikely that the ATF agents were injured by grenades. There was a significant lack of materials to manufacture live grenades, and the only explosives used during the entirety of the siege, came from the ATF and FBI.

ON LEGAL GUNS

Considering that the guns were legally under the name of Paul Fatta, a Davidian who possessed an FFL level 7 and ran a gun store out of the compound, the 1986 FOPA doesn't really matter as they was not an infraction. Legally Fatta may possess, manufacture and modify automatic weapons for the purposes of collection, sale to law enforcement/military, or personal use for demos etc. This isn't even including any that would have been NFA legal automatics - which any of them could arguably own. Just the modified here.

Now ignoring that a more important thing wasn't even the possession. The warrant was never issued for possession of an illegal firearm. The warrant was issued for "conspiracy to possess illegal firearms". While they had a member that could legally own said illegal firearms.

It is also worth note, that the Branch Davidians, when first informed of the interest in their firearms, sought to allow the ATF to inspect not only the firearms they suspected were illegal, but also the paperwork which would show any circumstances that would right the issue - that is FFL papers/NFA tax stamps etc.

ON PAUL FATTA

Paul Fatta ran a gun store out of the compound. It was no secret that he sold to law enforcement or military. In fact, the gun store was responsible for a large portion of the group's funding for their lifestyle. Hell, he had automatics with him when the raid went down as he was selling guns in another state at a gun show.

But more importantly, if an automatic is not illegally modified - all you need is a tax stamp and anyone could own it - which basically means you just need your paperwork. Given that there was 80 or so Branch Davidians (There were 132 but I am taking into account women and children as unlikely to own a firearm) at Waco, that would not even be remotely out of the question for there to be NFA tax stamps among the group. Especially since the group was pro gun and had members who could fill out the paperwork. This paperwork was cited as evidence the group did nothing wrong, yet the ATF refused to look at it. Any evidence of this paperwork was destroyed when the compound caught fire along with various other files they maintained on religion, taxes etc.

Fatta did not need to have a "use" for the collection. And the modifications were not illegal so long as he was registered as the owner.

Lets assume they are a cult with neo-apocalyptic outlooks. You are suggesting that it is alright - or positive - for the federal government to violate the rights not only of the group but of the individual when there is no evidence of illegal wrongdoings, no trial nor allowance to provide evidence against any allegations let alone suspected allegations, and ultimately condemn the citizens to death based upon premises that are shaky at best.

Having doomsday idealism is not inherently illegal nor does it inherently mean the individual or group is dangerous to themselves or society at large. This was not even a considered factor in the warrants.

Remember, the entirety of this boils down to "conspiracy to possess an illegal firearm".

To assume the Branch Davidians shot first is presumptuous, especially considering at the time they had invited ATF in to the compound in regards to various claims such as a meth lab/illegal weapons. Furthermore, considering the ceasefire during the siege, the Branch Davidians also showed considerable empathy, given that after the ceasefire was called they allowed the ATF to remove the dead and wounded from inside the compound and its surrounding grounds despite having the advantage of ammunition and fortification. Given the cults reputation with nearby locals, it would be rather out of character for them for them to be non-compliant with a search warrant.

Furthermore, Authorities acknowledge they started shooting the dogs first.

What happens next depends on who you side with.
>ATF says they attempted to breach and were met with Branch Davidian gunfire
>Branch Davidians claim ATF fired first

If you look at the evidence, what you see is that:

One ATF agent admittedly shot himself on accident climbing a ladder
He was removed without any shots being fired at him despite being in full view of windows/no cover
The ATF admitted to shooting the dogs first
The church's front door had damage showing exits on the interior (meaning it was shot through from outside)

So in all likelihood, ATF shot first. This would be consistent with the Branch Davidian's statement.

Elaboration

Well you have to consider what was going on politically and societally at the time of Waco. FOPA was introduced in 1986, the War on Drugs is declared (which figured into this as the ATF told the Feds that the Branch Davidians were running a meth lab in order to gain additional resources), Ruby Ridge had happened, the ATF had just had their shit taken to the cleaners in congressional hearing for generating cases by fucking over citizens, the militia movement is gaining popularity as the government keeps fucking up, etc.

iirc the ATF was also in a position where they were gonna lose a bunch of funding as well.

So basically it came time that they needed an event to flex their muscles and come off the victor. I mean there are other conspiracies out there - but the most likely cause is that the ATF is a bunch of idiots. For example:

>FBI try to negotiate
>FBI promise no change in electricity/water access etc.
>ATF go and cut the lines etc.

Every time the FBI tried to make an effort the ATF fucked it up.

The cult was targeted by feds over allegations they were stockpiling guns.

MOLESTATION

The problem with the molestation charges comes with how they were gained. As per the report sent to the Deputy Attorney General:

Evidence #1 was an ATF affidavit containing hearsay an ATF agent gained from a former cult member

Evidence #2 was notes from an interview a CPS made when talking to a girl who's family was kicked out of the cult

Evidence #3 was hearsay from a former cult member

Evidence #4 was hearsay from a former cult member (related to evidence 3 member)

Evidence #5 is interesting - it was from the shrink who interviewed the kids when they were released - he said from what he gained, none of the kids were abused but may have been present when sexual things were talked about

Evidence #6 was from the FBI on the phone with a branch davidian - the FBI try to pressure the davidian into saying he was fucking 12 yr olds, but the davidian believed the youngest he fucked was a 14 yr old

Evidence #7 was from a psychiatrist and he said that there was no way to resolve the situation at all and that Koresh was fucking kids - this is the only psychiatrist out of 8 who were consulted that suggested Koresh was fucking kids.

The conclusion at the end of the report is that there was no direct evidence establishing sexual abuse allegations, however it noted that there were circumstantial indications and the children were in a deteriorating living environment and the possibility of abuse would increase as the siege continued.

The vast majority of the evidence came from former cult members - the same members that false claimed Koresh had machine guns, .50 cal or larger weapons etc.

So realistically, what it would at least get is a warrant for Koresh, and the ability to allow CPS into the compound to do their own investigation. However that course of action was chosen against and a siege was carried out instead.

Looks like HP Lovecraft.

Other random facts:

youtube.com/watch?v=7iWqfUSKT0c
>supposed audio blasted at the Branch Davidians

ATF still went ahead with the assault after discovering that the Branch Davidians knew they were coming
>their assault plan was conceptualized around making it to the door before the Davidians knew they were coming and had a chance to arm

Tax fraud was never proven
Child abuse was never proven
>one of the people who said Koresh fucked a kid, was married to said kid, and said Koresh married them to cover up his escapades
Welfare fraud was never proven
Drug manufacturing was never proven
>one could even argue against it was considered as Koresh had called the government to clean up a meth lab ran by the original leader Roden

Lon Horiuchi, of Ruby Ridge fame, was present at the Waco siege
>Texas rangers alleged that he fired the first shots on the final day

"Long before the fire, the Davidians were discussing the evidence contained in the doors. During the siege, in a phone conversation with the FBI, Steve Schneider, one of Koresh's main confidants, told FBI agents that 'the evidence from the front door will clearly show how many bullets and what happened'." Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who went inside Mount Carmel during the siege, testified at the trial that protruding metal on the inside of the right-hand entry door made it clear that the bullet holes were made by incoming rounds. DeGuerin also testified that only the right-hand entry door had bullet holes, while the left-hand entry door was intact. The government presented the left-hand entry door at the trial, claiming that the right-hand entry door had been lost. The left-hand door contained numerous bullet holes made by both outgoing and incoming rounds. Texas Trooper Sgt. David Keys testified that he witnessed two men loading what could have been the missing door into a U-Haul van shortly after the siege had ended, but he did not see the object itself. Michael Caddell, the lead attorney for the Branch Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit explained, "The fact that the left-hand door is in the condition it's in tells you that the right-hand door was not consumed by the fire. It was lost on purpose by somebody." Caddell offered no evidence to support this allegation, which has never been proved. However, fire investigators stated that it was "extremely unlikely" that the steel right door could have suffered damage in the fire much greater than did the steel left door, and both doors would have been found together. The right door remains missing, and the entire site was under close supervision by law enforcement officials until the debris—including both doors—had been removed.[90]

This door is what they are talking about.

based corbett

They also did shit like this - this is a Devtech 25 flashbang found at the point of origin of the 2nd fire. They used quite a bit more of these then they let on to.

Yup. CS gas is what they usually say they use. CS itself is a powder, that is mixed with methyline chloride (otherwise known as dichloromethane or DCM), which is important as it produces flammable vapours. A volume of 13% to 25% of DCM at 25*C (or 77*F) and atmospheric pressure can ignite easily.

Link to door image:
Link to Devtech:

Came here to post about mcveigh being a patsy for the gov to destroy the evidence about the waco seige and learned some stuff. Thank you leaf for not being a faggot.

McVeigh was just a sad case. The entirety of the ATFs existence is just pure fucking over citizens.

>since when do FBIs have access to bradleys and m728s? next you will tell me they used cobras and f15s

They gained access through the ATF filing a request due to the War on Drugs legislation that allows the FBI/ATF/anyone involved in an operation to request equipment, vehicles and training that is afforded to the military.

In essence its a way to deploy military equipment against civilians bypassing the legal structure preventing the use of the military against the civilians.

>despite having the advantage of ammunition and fortification.

>fortification

>in the 20th century

>advantage of ammunition when you are being sieged

yeah nah

did they have them on hands 24/7 or did they have to request them on a case by case basis.

oh_look_this_thread_again.jpg

Case by case, in that they have to request for each operation. But that said, its 24/7 as in they had it for pretty much the entire siege.

The initial raid was poorly thought out. ATF ran out of ammo pretty early on, and didn't really have any fortifications set up. Basically just cars and hiding behind what was at the compound. The Sheriff's department called for a ceasefire, explaining the situation, and despite having the upper hand - as in they could have easily wiped out the ATF stragglers who had no ability to shoot back nor shit to really hide near - the Branch Davidians ultimately chose to follow the Sheriff's department's request..

yeah i read through the wikipedia article. the whole thing seemed fucked up with the goobermints intent on mayhem for some reason.

>daycare center
>not a federal building containing a daycare center
>waving the bloody diaper