Is there a philosophical study for "being wrong by being outnumbered"? For example if you are in a room with 4 other people, and you claim 2+2=4, but the other 4 people are adamant that 2+2=5 and they refuse to accept any alternative. You are alone in your claim, and despite the inherent truth and your ability to prove it (hold up 2 fingers and 2 fingers...), the working reality is now 2+2=5 because more people say it is this way. Akin to how the world works. There are obvious, blatant falsities that are not only allowed to survive in society but they are enforced as the truth.
A real world example: The left claiming Trump is a "Nazi". He fits essentially no definition of a Nazi. The Nazi party is officially disbanded. He's shown very few socialist tendencies. He's annoyingly pro jew and pro israel. He even leans on his Scottish ancestry over his German side. Yet millions of people are convinced he's a "nazi" with no ability to persuade or argue against them on it.
Being in a leftist city feels like you are living in the Twilight Zone as people bleat out these constant falsities, but there's seemingly no overcoming it due to being outnumbered. And my question extends to the internet. If you're on a thread and the voice of reason and/or fact is stamped out by simple being outnumbered, what would this concept or situation be called in a formal sense?
I think that's called being politically incorrect.
Oliver Anderson
argumentum ad populum but more specifically in this case it might be classified as gaslighting (no you can't be right, how could you be right and everyone else wrong?)
To add to OP, how do you even debate or gain ground when you're outnumbered by hostile, refusing to reason people?
Zachary Rogers
Nobody believes any of it. The media projects the idea that the majority believes Trump is a Nazi and everyone just conforms to that. youtube.com/watch?v=NyDDyT1lDhA
>Akin to how the world works. No. This is how women work. Some men as well, but mostly women.
Zachary Richardson
might makes right to a degree depending on the circumstances
this is the debate aspect
Liam Ward
>argumentum ad populum This, although it's also known as the bandwagon fallacy. OP, there have been some studies. One psychology experiment had participants in a room answering which lines of a powerpoint slide were longest. Just bars on a blank background, it was obvious which was longest. Anyway, there were actors in the room with the participant who purposefully said the wrong line, and everyone was instructed to present their answers at once by holding up the corresponding number the bar was labeled with or something. I forget the results, but a lot of people just went along with the obviously wrong answers others were proposing just so they wouldn't stick out. And this is a situation where nothing is really on the line, just people in a study they'll never see again. I consider bandwagon the most dangerous fallacy because it happens and works everywhere. So many sacred cow ideas are basicslly held up by bandwagon and appeal to authority which is like bandwagon but instead of saying "listen to the majority" it's saying "listen to the experts". A good example of the two combined is the typical argument that man made climate change policy pushers use about scientific expert consensus. You'll see a lot of people default to "well 97% of climate scientists say..." to explain why they believe man made climate change is a huge deal, but seldom do they know about chemistry or basic physics with regards to gases and heat transfer.
Ryan Rodriguez
Asch conformity experiments
Blake Lewis
In psychology, the Asch conformity experiments or the Asch Paradigm refers to a series of studies directed by Solomon Asch studying if and how individuals yielded to or defied a majority group and the effect of such influences on beliefs and opinions.
Cameron Nguyen
Yes, there are studies where people will change their answers or refuse the give the correct answer if everyone else around them is giving the wrong answer. I know Vsauce did one of his shitty "Mind Field" episodes about it (it's called "Conformity"). I think Head Games had a small section for it in one of its episodes.
Thomas Phillips
It's Solomon Asch's conformity experiments
only one participant wasn't an actor - when the group gave the wrong answer to the length of a stick, so did the participant.
It took only one other actor to disagree with the group for the participant to then go with their true thought.
Leo Fisher
That state of group conformity could be called The NPC state
Luke Peterson
when you allow social majority to over ride individual decision making
this ties into Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration as well.
Cameron Miller
this, women mostly have the herd mentality, though not ALL of them, just most, and some men have this mentality too but most do not.
why do you think (((they))) pushed so hard for female politicians? its much easier to sway the mind of a woman than it is to convince a man, especially when you surround the woman with other women who are all in agreement.
Oliver Reyes
The truth is divine, no matter what others parrot, 2 people following the truth will prevail over 50 billion following lies.
>Asch conformity experiments Yep, watch that video. Possibly Baudrillard's Simulacrum and Plato's Cave explain this as well. But most of this is conformity, same as when ants are choosing a stable location to build their nest, the minority will simply follow the majority.
Matthew Moore
Yes in philosophy, what you describe is a logical fallacy known as the Bandwagon fallacy, or alternatively the ad populum fallacy:
>The bandwagon fallacy assumes something is true (or right, or good) because other people agree with it. A couple different fallacies can be included under this label, since they are often indistinguishable in practice. The ad populum fallacy (Lat., “to the populous/popularity") is when something is accepted because it’s popular.
Gabriel Fisher
That's the difference between objectivity and subjectivity
Blake Wright
You will either cuck to their world view or they will murder you for imagining you are God.
Ryan Rodriguez
The subjective murders the objective when it cannot understand why a thing is in fact objective.
Gavin Kelly
I don't get what your point or question is. There is no such thing as "being wrong by being outnumbered", there is at all times only one truth no matter the question. Having a dissenting opinion is not being wrong, it is being disliked
Logan Allen
You cannot use reason to change an opinion which was not built on reason in the first place. All incorrect opinions are necessarily arrived at by emotion instead of reason. therefore you have to use emotion to gain ground against a reasonless person
Wyatt Jenkins
>there is at all times only one truth no matter the question
Okay Ayn Rand. Objectivism already proven false by science. Reality is probabilistic, not deterministic.
Ethan Hughes
I don't know how to deal with this. When you redpill people on something or start asking questions everyone discards your point of view automatically becasue "my celebreties opinion, my college, my jewtube etc. etc.".
Luis King
in the example he used his guy was wrong by being out numbered. just because 5 people that 2+2 is 5 doesn't make it true.
Joshua Anderson
Corral the sheep. Don't throw your pearls before swine.
Kayden Edwards
>If you're on a thread and the voice of reason and/or fact is stamped out by simple being outnumbered, what would this concept or situation be called in a formal sense?
The only man i met who was ok with my opinions was ex-kgb politology teacher, he scoffed at the stupid npc, and i got a free pass for every lecture
Landon Edwards
Goldboi 2nd from Right has some nice Milkers
Ian Wilson
That's the result of having a society that's overly feminised, everything is about social perception and/or status, because these are the only things that give women value.
William White
new jojo ep
Matthew Rodriguez
Come to think of it, why are all these men dickless? What did (((they))) mean by this?
Dylan Young
>Being in a leftist city feels like you are living in the Twilight Zone Everyone acts like things are one way so you have to start to act that way to even function. You start accepting their false reality and questioning basic facts to make it all fit. When you add 2 + 2 apples in front of them they'll say you have 5 apples. If you hide the 4 apples and show them again they'll say 4. If you try to explain the error they'll say stop being autistic about math stuff and watch Harry Potter with me. Is that an objectively true statement?
Jack Johnson
The truth is the truth regardless of how few believe it and a lie is a lie regardless of how many believe it.
>A real world example: The left claiming Trump is a "Nazi". He fits essentially no definition of a Nazi. The Nazi party is officially disbanded. He's shown very few socialist tendencies. He's annoyingly pro jew and pro israel. He even leans on his Scottish ancestry over his German side. Yet millions of people are convinced he's a "nazi" with no ability to persuade or argue against them on it.
Youre really taking it too literally. Most people just mean "Trump is terrible", it's a form of hyperbole. A simple reply of "I think there are more accurate ways of describing of you feel about Trump without involving false equivalencies."
Any idiot who is going to double down and argue that Trump is literally a Nazi isn't worth talking to - they are irrational people. The world is filled with them, and mostly their opinion doesn't matter, because it breaks down at the slightest challenge.
If you don't feel like being cordial, just say "That's stupid" and move on. Why are you so concerned with it anyhow?
Jace Morales
I remember when I realized that those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music.
Jonathan Rogers
>Trump is terrible You live in a constructed virtual world where reality doesn't matter. All that matters is conformity to media narratives.
Robert Powell
Don't debate people without open minds. Simple as.
Nolan Carter
>Is there a philosophical study for "being wrong by being outnumbered"?
no, but there is a psychological study / experiment on this.
Turns out, after a while, some significant amout of ppl start to agree, that 2+2=5.
Pretty pathetic.
Jack Morales
people also thought the earth was flat but how the fuck do you convince 99% of the population hookup culture is degenerate?
Thomas Sullivan
>how the fuck do you convince 99% of the population hookup culture is degenerate? Disease
Logan Sanchez
Confirmation bias is one.
Daniel Hill
I really wish sociologists would spend their time studying effects like this and how to best negate them instead of writing dissertations about pointless shit like feminist perspectives on glaciology.
Lucas Cook
Isn't quantum theory deterministic?
Would that account for the "timeline" chat on youtube and also what people were terming the mandala effect?
William Price
Nah man, to most people, truth isn't worth pursuing. It doesn't affect much in their lives whether they believe Trump is a good/bad president/person. That doesn't mean they aren't capable of discrete, critical thought.
Talk civilly with people, and it becomes pretty apparent.
>Believing in the herd mentality If you know you're right, yet you bend knee to those who haven't convinced you that you're wrong, then turn in your testicles because you are no man. The truth shines the brightest no matter how much the liars and the stupid muddy it.
Individuals are different from groups. The conformity experiment doesn't work with only one person. The passive conformity to media propaganda like "orange man bad" is one of the worst human tendencies there is and it does create an artificial world that sometimes nobody even believes in, they're all conforming to create a hell nobody wants.
Elijah Morris
>There is no such thing as "being wrong by being outnumbered",
They are right, words and numbers are a social construct. 2 can be whatever they want if they are the majority and in control.
Oliver Harris
This is precisely how Democrats operate. They create a narrative. The media gets onboard for obvious reasons. That narrative then becomes the defacto norm and they push it into schools for obvious reasons. Brainwashing complete.
In two generations the Democrats have the capability of creating new realities simply by controlling the media and education systems. Strip them of these and you can stop it. The right is too full of pussies to really go after them.
I guess my point was that most people operate in good faith when confronted. It's not necessary to take such a malevolent stance against people who do fall into conformity, as most people will attempt to engage with civil debate.
I'm going to screencap this and post it on Reddit in a few days for a sweet internet dopamine fix. Once everyone forgets, though. But you'll know. And that's what's important, user.
I think you're being purposefully cynical, and haven't talked to many people about this stuff. I'm on the Left, but still call people out for saying stupid shit like "Trump is a Nazi". Most people are willing to rephrase themselves in more discrete terms, and those who double down aren't worth talking about "reality" with.
Luke Brown
You can’t debate idiots with low iqs. You just ignore them and treat them like the morons they are.
Reading through the comments here and people are constantly telling you that you shouldn't pay them any mind. You shouldn't give up. Giving up means they win. You're doing Gods work. As to your question: "what would this concept or situation be called in a formal sense." I'm going to have go with some mix between Framing and Mob-Mentality. It's tough to overcome. That doesn't mean you cannot administer red pills nor does it mean you should stop trying. 5 years ago I was attending BLM and Bernie Sanders Rallies. People like you brought me to see the reality. Keep up the good work, user. You're making progress.
Landon Carter
Being outnumbered doesn't make you wrong and Trump is in fact a nazi
Christian Bell
It's not about the phrasing and I don't care about hyperbole. You're explaining why ackshually 2+2 is 5 when I consider socioeconomic factors and CNN talking points. I have no patience for any of it anymore. The only thing left for you people is the gaschamber.
His support of Israel is an indicator.israel is the favorite country for Nazis as a millitaristic right wing ethnostate.
Lucas Jones
>The truth is divine, no matter what others parrot, 2 people following the truth will prevail over 50 billion following lies.
BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM! People of the truth are not prevailing over the people of the lie. And, when we look at all the repressive, communist regimes of the 20th century which lasted for decades and are still only shells of their pre-communist glory (all of them grounded and saturated in pure lies)... we should be seriously concerned.
Here's a cheat code for you to understand why "the truth" never seems to prevail against lies...
You only THINK that you're standing on the side of truth. But you and your opponents are both rooted and grounded in the same fundamental error... materialism. And their side is actually more consistent with it (hence the reason why it always "wins").
What's interesting is also to think of why this effect even exists, or rather why one would be scared of standing out even if it's for being right. It speaks volumes about how fucked our society is that social perception and conformity are enough to make men give up on reason. Even as far back as school it's often undesirable to stand out given it often comes with mockery, peolle trying to use you for personal gain or trying to fuck you over in jealousy. How would you even fix something like this?
Dominic Wood
It worked fine to keep small groups relatively unified like in chimps. The problem is propaganda, the public relations industry and all that exploiting basic ape social functions to create golem armies.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments >a sizable minority of responses conformed to the actors' (incorrect) answer (36.8 percent) >Only 5 percent of participants were always swayed by the crowd. 25 percent of the sample consistently defied majority opinion, with the rest conforming on some trials.
I imagine more people would be swayed to conform if the planted actors were able to reward/punish the participant based on their conformity or nonconformity. Also, if the task was more abstract or subjective (anything that would make the participant have doubts due to lack of expertise or lack of full information) then the pressure to conform would be higher.
Eli King
It's partly a consequence of our economic environment. When there are too many people and not enough jobs, people feel strong pressure to stay silent and not risk their careers.
It's insane to me that people on the American right will complain about political correctness (ie pressure not to express right-wing views) but then turn around and express pride and satisfaction with the economy and laugh at the idea that people are finding it harder and harder to get good jobs.
They aren't just shooting themselves in the foot, they're shooting themselves in both knees.
Ryan Adams
It's present in all observable areas, really. And the higher you go the worse it gets: in school it's mockery, at work it's your job and when it comes to politics and similar areas it's your life itself. People know this and use it as a tool of intimidation.
Jeremiah Rodriguez
They'll just bash you over the head and that's it now whos right?
Parker Ortiz
>Most people just mean "Trump is terrible", it's a form of hyperbole. >they are irrational people. The world is filled with them, :^)
