Is there any point in giving Jow Forumsice to incels?

This is a legitimate question.
In my (admittedly brief) time on this board, I have seen a great many anons who might be called "incels", and despite most of them actively asking for advice, none of them seem capable of even entertaining the idea of taking any advice.
There seems to be two types:
There are those that are steadfastly certain of their worthlessness, resolute in their belief that they understand all women despite their complete lack of experience with them.
And there are those who turtle themselves in a shell of anger and misogyny as if pointless rage and cynicism were their secret, personal key to happiness.

Both types express this near-religious belief that they have everything figured out while emoting nothing but desperation and usually insisting that all women are a static and homogeneous hivemind.
Is there any point in advising any of these guys?

To be clear, I was never expecting a high return on my investment. I consider "maybe helping a little" 1 out of 10 anons to be a success.

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pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/22/less-than-half-of-u-s-kids-today-live-in-a-traditional-family/
ifstudies.org/blog/more-than-60-of-u-s-kids-live-with-two-biological-parents/

I mean hopefully they'll realize that they're being retarded and then take the advice . They're just not open minded and I'm not sure how they can be unless they experience something that proves how wrong they are, but that's unlikely.

>unless they experience something that proves how wrong they are
Literally plain, simple logic, or the fact that people are capable of being individuals, proves half of what I've seen wrong.
Some of the ones who respond can be lead to water but they just refuse to drink.
I just don't know.

Likely not. Incels need experience with girls that aren't rotten, something you can't give them over the internet. Of course, seeing as most of them are incels because they were burned in their early youth/past, most don't wish to risk getting hurt again and so they prefer to sit around and believe all women are evil and that there cannot possible be a way forward.

They're really not incels too, they're volcels. They can afford a hooker.

>there cannot possibly be a way forward.
That's the universal response.
The resentment is mixed. Some put women on an untouchable pedestal.

Women are fricking people. Most of them are just trying to get through life like everyone else. People are people, not internet concepts.

Hookers are often illegal. Claiming that is like claiming anyone who doesn't steal is voluntarily poor.
Although, when I was celibate despite seeking sex, I considered myself temporarily unfortunate, not part of an elite doomed cadre.

Copfag.

I deal with a variety of situations (Domestic disputes, traffic collisions, etc) in which two parties are heavily involved emotionally in a dispute and are only capable of seeing things from their point of view. They can't seem to understand how they've contributed negatively to a given situation and what their part in creating it was.

To any given outside observer though the circumstances that led to the situation and the steps necessary to reach its resolution seem obvious. That's because the outside observer is viewing the situation with little to no prior knowledge and is not emotionally invested in the conflict or it's outcome.

The root issue is that most of these anons seeking advice don't take the advice because they are incapable of seeing their given situation as we do (outsider observer) and often times lack the intestinal fortitude to follow through on decisions that could resolve their problems (even when we point them out) because they are to invested and the decision is emotionally painful (usually in the extreme).

It's frustrating but I don't blame them. I empathize when possible.

Also probably 20% of these threads are bait.

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Best thing to do for incels is compassion and empathy, because they usually are people who have high amounts of self-loathing and people helping them makes them feel like they are inferior (in their mind).

Stop trying to convince them that you are right, and just try to make the goal understanding them as a person. Not every incel is the same, like it or not.

>Stop trying to convince them that you are right, and just try to make the goal understanding them as a person.
How does understanding them help if they don't listen?
I guess I'm really asking if anyone has gotten through to any of these guys, and if so, how often?

If you disagree with them, they react and you will never get them to change because any feedback is interpreted as an attack on them as a person(personal attack) even though its not meant to be.

Agreeing only strengthens their view, so there's no point in that.

When you empathise, you acknowledge their strong feelings without taking any stance. Doing this removes a communication barrier (ie. Emotion) and makes it possible for them to understand your point of view.

So basically your conversation structure would be like this.

Hey I understand your point of view because.... (exain why)
This is my opinion (make sure not to present it as a truth or lie, just your opinion) from what I've seen in my life, take it or leave it.

I understand your point, I just expect that from those not actively soliciting an outsider's perspective.

And 20% bait seems a touch low.

You failed to account for a third type: guys who have just given up. I don't hate women, and I don't claim to have figured them out, but at this point it's too much work and I'm fine being alone.

I get that it's discouraging when you keep trying and not getting the result you want, but based on my experiences, the more you do something, the better you become at it. You'll get a date if you keep putting the effort in. Don't give up.

Samefag on this post.

I kinda understand incels because in my mid 20's I involved myself in communities such as MRA, MRM, incel however I never fully tied myself to any movement.

I honestly couldn't tell you exactly how I got out of that mindset, but it ended up in me being more self-aware.

I guess being an incel also gives them some sense of shared purpose that they all feel strongly about as well. Someone else understands their pain. Someone else has experienced this same hurt.

It is incredibly difficult to shoulder a huge amount of emotional pain (especially sexual rejection) so it's much easier to deflect it upon the other party - then following any reaction up by accusing them of taking things personally (ie. Sorry for your feelings etc.).

Personally it was very difficult for me to finally accept that the only person to blame for both my social rejection and female rejection, because that was bringing back multiple years of experiences of rejection and years of self-unawareness to the present and... I'll admit... Some manly tears were she'd by me.

I did get over it after a while and I'm making a daily effort to get better socially by primarily focusing on self-awareness and being aware of others feelings as well.

Typo
"the only person to blame for both my social rejection and female rejection was me"
Left out was me

Seeing the same questions over and over can make it seem like nobody learns. But remember that each of those is someone new, who very probably hasn't read any of the previous threads and who is living his own misadventure for the first time.

There probably should be a permanent FAQ thread for this page, but in its absence we have to be patient with each new sufferer.

If an user, not necessarily you, were actually fine giving up and being alone, they wouldn't be here asking for advice.

As for you, how much work is too much work? How much work is an acceptable amount of work? How do you know that an acceptable amount of work won't eventually succeed?

It's more that each thread is the exact same: OP double downs on their initial position and refuses to acknowledge any other..

what if he just doesn't care about women any more?

See this is the problem, people think you have a problem if you don't have a girlfriend.

This idea is well accepted in society today, although it's not true. Guys (well most guys) make fun of you and girls think if your beyond a certain age and don't have a girlfriend your some kind of creep.

Can we stop thinking like this and let others live their own lives in peace?

>Hey I understand your point of view because....
>This is my opinion....
Have you tried this and gotten a postive result?

>It is incredibly difficult to shoulder a huge amount of emotional pain (especially sexual rejection)
I suppose that's what my issue is.
I've been there. I spent a long time being (what I call) socially retarded, like the actual meaning of the word. (I remember the moment I realized that repeating the punchline of a joke does nothing to improve the humor.) I've been rejected, a lot. Savagely. And worst of all, accidentally. Because I was so beneath notice that I didn't merit discounting.

And at no time did I blame an entire gender, give up, or decide that I was worthless. Because evidence to the contrary is all around me every day.

>Can we stop thinking like this and let others live their own lives in peace?
Absolutely.
Brian, my neighbor apparently hasn't had a girlfriend in a couple years. He keeps a nice house, nice yard, nice job, has friends over, and doesn't bury torsos in his backyard. My in-laws think it's odd. I think it's fine.

But if he posted a thread on Jow Forums about >no gf Wat do?
And ignored everyone?
That's different.

Well, it's not directly related but I managed to talk a guy out of suicide by using that approach. I'm more quiet that I used to be now, however when I do talk I just default to empathising with the person rather than trying to fix things. I mean sure, you can offer solutions, but the majority of the time people are not actively looking for solutions, they are looking for understanding.

Someone might complain to me how their life is so horrible and nothings going right. By default I put myself in their shoes and understand how they feel, and don't bother about correcting the problem. Oftentimes people will end up a lot happier if you just empathise rather than trying to solve their problem.

I used to give solutions to people's problems and wonder why they didn't improve themselves and get angry at them for not improving, but then I realised that in general, people are doing the best they can with the resources they have (mentally, physically and spiritually) at the time, so the best way to remove a problem is help them to see clearer by removing their emotion (best done by acknowledging how a person feels empathetic ally).

Personally, I don't like empathising, but to get along with people better, I just had to learn the skills - some people just refuse to do the self work to accept themselves and continue to seek acceptance from others to feel validated.

As to why people end up blaming a whole gender, I can't honestly say I 100% understand why people will do that either.

I'm not entirely sure where I fit into the whole incel paradigm but I'd be interested in other people's takes. For reference I:

>am 29, never kissed a woman, never slept with a woman, never held a woman's hand
>Don't hate women, don't consider myself "entitled" to have one
>I'm resentful of what I perceive as their much easier ability for them to get partners
>Feel like I have abysmal social skills
>Terrible social anxiety and no sense of self worth
>Don't believe a girl could ever be interested in me, have destroyed several potential relationships because I avoid girls who show interest in me
>Am very prone to feeling like a creep if I express any sexual interest
>Hate my sexuality anyway due to disgusting perversions
>Have rarely tried flirting, feels unnatural when I do
>Have been rejected twice
>Intensely jealous when I see normal man-women interactions. Flirting, relationships, all that.
>Feel that I'm a genuinely "nice guy" because that's what others have told me, but I'm a nice guy to the point of spinelessness
>Feel that outside being a "nice guy" I'm boring and there's nothing to grab a girl's attention
>Feel that if you strip away the misogyny there's still truth about gender dynamics hidden in the incel's worldview, and find myself annoyed that people won't accept this. Yeah there's a lot of horseshit but there's truth too.
>Know that even if I got a gf my jealousy about her past experiences would inevitably ruin the relationship
>Am more focused on trying to get through life without a partner than trying to obtain one at this point

There's a lot more too but I can't think of it right now

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You can't help them if you don't understand their problems in life. Also, your advice is probably along the lines of "just buy some cologne bro", so fuck off.

Incels understand their own problems the least of them all.

not if you're a massive bitch. incels are hurt and you just like to hit them while they're down

incels tend to understand their problems but see them as impossible to overcome. I don't think you understand the incels mindset when it comes to what 'women have become' and 'how they used to be in the good old days'. Some of it is wishful thinking but alot of it is statistics and 'observing how women behave'.
They forgot that women have been sluts throughout all the ages, it's their evolutionary strategy

Id say you are pretty much average.

To be perfectly honest I think the only difference between guys who hardly get any girls and guys who get heaps of girls is just how many girls they approach.

The guys good with girls are quite heavily insecure people as well with social anxiety (most times) but they go ahead and ask the girl anyway even if they end up looking completely retarded to the girl.

None of these guys are superior to anyone else really, it's just they make a habit of consistently approaching different girls. Their success rate may be as low as 1%, but 1% of 1000 is still greater than 1% of 100.

These guys have problems too, most guys who mass approach girls have social anxiety too - they hate looking retarded too (most times they do end up looking retarded), But they just approach regardless of all these things.

Being good at social skills doesn't make you a better person.
Having a girlfriend doesn't make you a. Better person.
Having lots of friends doesn't make you a better person.

You are just a person with more skills tha other people. The only thing that determines your value as a person, is you.

I don't have many skills, I'd wager that I'm quite a retard, however I feel satisfied just for being me. This is more than I can say for many unfortunately and I wish I could explain to others that the best validation that you will ever get is from yourself.

Their entire ideology is based on cherrypicking whatever anecdotes fit their worldview and ignoring all facts that go against them. It's like a religion.

This is me. I don’t ask genuinely for advice because I know where I’ve failed. I’m not interested in becoming attractive. I sometimes larp as a really deranged incel because it’s east (You)s but I’m honestly fine being alone

>Incels understand their own problems the least of them all.
this is exactly what I mean. You don't have a clue.

>Their entire ideology
you don't even know what an incel is lmao

Calling it an “ideology” is a big part of the disingenuous behavior that causes incels to become defensive and double down.

>I sometimes larp as a really deranged incel because it’s east (You)s
I prefer larping as a white knight for (You)s. It's much easier to bait anons and derail a thread.

Then explain, if an incel is not someone who follows incel ideology and beliefs?

Then enlighten me, I'll listen.

Of course. I have a whole wardrobe of bait personalities that can get me easy replies when I wear them. A personal favorite, when it’s appropriate, is the radical feminist who thinks men’s issues don’t exist. There’s also the generic slut, Reddit white knight/cuckold, and genuinely down normies. Just depends on how the board looks on a particular day

I have tried and tried and I just don't see the point anymore.
I tell them how women "work", cause I had to learn that myself.
I used to be an incel.
They just tell me I am wrong, even get irrationally angry at ME for telling them dating advice and when I then point out, that I AM getting laid, they just tell me I am "bragging".
Right. I am bragging on an anonymous image board.
Most likely to intentionally mislead them.
For reasons unknown.
1 in 10 sounds about right.

Not even true.
They just read stuff on the internet, immediately believe it and set those beliefs in stone without ever even considering any sort of alternative.

The average guy has had far more success than me. I'd say I'm far more insecure that average, and far less successful than average.

>Being good at social skills doesn't make you a better person.
>Having a girlfriend doesn't make you a. Better person.
>Having lots of friends doesn't make you a better person.
They're heuristics

I sure would like to be satisfied with who I am though.

It's their experience I'm pretty sure. You call it their ideology but that's already dismissive. Why do you think incels become dismissive of you

bullshit. it's not just approaching women. I know an autistic guy who's ripped, smart af, but also very much a douchebag because he thinks he's better than everyone. He gets girls only because he asks out literally every girl but he still has fewer girls than me, because it's about picking your fights and setting up the battle. Not just accepting every battle you encounter. You'll need to learn to be charming and set up the encounter and set it to your hand.

You do know death is freedom from your pain, right?

But to them you are bragging. Normies have this tendency to brag about things with the sole intention of yanking incels’ chains, getting them riled up, and then immediately deflect saying, “everyone can do it! What are you, crazy?” Something similar to that.

But sexual rejection, to most incels, seems to mean
>Women are not approaching ME and throwing themselves at me
They seem to think most men don't have to be proactive.
Which is ofc wrong.

What’s my pain?

>You do know death is freedom from your pain, right?
No, it's not. Please read about reincarnation.

Well, as one of the guys who has simply come to terms with my unattractiveness, and who admits fully I never tried, I will say that a big part of my discouragement is that no female has ever expressed interest in me. Not saying they should, but by being observant I realized by negation that I am not attractive. And so not only would I have to become attractive, I’d also have to overcome my general social retardation, and then learn how to be in a relationship well past an acceptable age. I just don’t want to

So strong are their beliefs they consider meme diagrams on incel blogs "scientific evidence" while actual studies and statistics are "wrong because women lie".

Being satisfied with who you are is a slow process - mainly about addressing emotions.

Couple of things I do everyday to help with this.
1. Write up to 5 things I'm grateful for each day
2. Write up to 5 achievements that I am proud of myself for each day (no matter how small they are)
3. 3-10 minutes meditation.
And mabye 4 - catching myself when I judge myself or think negative thoughts and reframe them into constructive feedback.

When you start doing this, it seems like it isn't making any difference, but after doing this for a while consistently, slowly you start to feel better about yourself, you take rejection and negative comments from others less personally and the like.

I won't pretend I'm happy all the time, and I don't expect to be - I guess this just helps me to not take things personally and also rebound back quicker from times I feel bad.

This is definitely not a quick fix, but if you keep doing it it does give results

Incels don't have experience at all. Ask one if he has ever asked a girl out. He will say no. Or that he once did in middle school and got rejected so that makes him an expert on women.

Doesn't exist, loser.

I did once and got approved. It went terribly (my fault) and now I just my sexual desires gone

Proof?

>Doesn't exist, loser.
It does. I have no doubt you will suffer a terrible future life with that attitude.

Some take longer to learn what works than others I agree, but in the end - why do you care how many girls another guy. Has?

If he's happy with his results then good for him, and likewise for you.

Im not going to be specific about which is the best method and which isn't, because thats just retarded - not everyone is the same, so not every method is right for everyone.

>another instance of normies trying to understand the problem they’ve created without being willing to accept fault
Yawn

Waah Waah it's someone else's fault.

Keep being a victim bro.

Of course it’s the incels’ fault for remaining incels but it’s the normies fault for creating the circumstances which inceldom spring from

bait

Mabye it is normies fault.

Instead of trying to fight the system, learn how the system works and make it work for you - exploit the loopholes.

It's a much more efficient way of going through life.

As a former incel (I’m now just a celibate because I could get a prostitute (even though it’s illegal)) but still virgin, I will say it’s really hard to overcome the fact that some 13, maybe even 12 or 11 year old kids have had more sex than me. They are more human than I’ll ever be.

I couldn’t give two fucks. I’m fine being alone; I just wish normies would leave me be about being a virgin, a “creep,” or whatever other shit they say about me to me

can you give
some advice? thank you
all I ask is that the advice has clear steps, more "do or die" rather than "trial and error" on my part and I am sure I can reach success

And what circumstances are those?

Incels in the strict sense (the kind that legitimately think they're 100% undateable, not trolling, or appropriating the word for other situations) tend to come off as having a version of body dysmorphic disorder, but they view themselves and circumstances being the contributing factor. It doesn't have to be their physical traits or include any of their physical traits, but can be social aspects too. For example, lack of friends, lack of job, lack of money, etc.

You could appear, wave a magic wand to fix all their problems, and incels would most likely spend their time looking for another cause of their problem. It really does remind me of people who don't date, blame it on their weight, have weight loss surgery, lose weight, then shift their problems to a different outlet like going into debt. It's basically a symptom of a bigger problem.

What is that problem? It could be a bunch of causes. Lack of self-esteem, personality disorder, abuse, and tons other possible reasons.

Not entirely sure as I didn’t create them, but I’d say overstimulation, consumerist tendencies, oversexualization, hypergamy, and a complete disregard for male problems

I don't
I hope all those failures stay incels so I can fuck more whores. Incels don't listen so you can say the truth to them and they'll ignore it. Great. Their disgusting kind deserves to be stepped and trampled on by chads and whores.
I only care about the roasties on this board stepping on incels, because roasties don't deserve that pleasure. They deserve my dick and then a childless lonely death due to old age and depression.

None of the things you said mean anything. You're just vagueposting with no substance. Mention a specific problem that created incels, is normies fault, and did not exist until recently.

The popularization of the internet.

And, to be specific, the years 2006-2008 to be specific in that regard

Nothing wrong with being alone m8. Just saying that there is a system to how people operate, and you can get what you want from people with small effort, you just have to know what people respond to and what they don't respond to.

It's not that people choose to respond in certain ways, it's just the way the human brain is wired to respond (goes way back to caveman days).

Not many people understand what triggers certain reactions in people, but there are psychology books which explain what people respond and don't respond to.

I don't like how people work to be honest, but instead of getting angry at how the system works, I choose to learn how it works so I can benefit from it.

At the same time, if a person is happy with their current situation, no matter who they are I am happy for them - even if I disagree with their personal beliefs.

This. I wish my parents never had me because what is the point if I’m genetic waste? I stay alive to pay taxes for 70-100 years? Is that a life? Fuck normies, but you guys should actively encourage eugenics so that people like me die at birth and don’t clog up the machinations of society

How did that create incels? And why is internet a bad thing?

There are few of those incels desu
most think they're better dateable but women haven't seen them or something like that. Or rather women don't want them even though they think they're dateable.

Or think they are too nic and smart so that's why women don't like them.

If you’re trying to sell me something, being extremely vague and saying
>Just saying that there is a system to how people operate, and you can get what you want from people with small effort, you just have to know what people respond to and what they don't respond to
Isn’t very convincing. Why am I manipulating people? What could I gain from this? What psychological books would you recommend?
Don’t bother answering because I’m not interested. You just posted a lot without saying anything

Internet is not a bad thing. Creeps/weirdos no longer have anywhere to go. They become mocked and kicked out of their places. They radicalize because they have no where else to go and no thinks their problems are serious.

Good boy. Now stop talking and die quietly already. You're not needed anywhere anymore.
Pathetic.
Honestly I think this is what incels need. To be completely disregarded and scorned by society, so they'll start to hate it with a passion (the weaker ones will commit suicide). In that hatred, you can find a will to live, by destroying this worthless society and the garbage it's produced, even you, who's subconsciously been raped and murdered dozens of times by this crumbling society.
Hate society and you'll find it to be true that you are worth more than this society combined, because you value something and society values nothing at all.
But you won't because incels can't see meaning, filthy postmodernist failures~

That's what happens to nice guys during puberty, I too thought that being nice helps. It doesn't, just treat them like whores and you get better results. Although obviously pretend to treat them well. Women love the White Knight on the horse theme but only if that white knight also takes them away and rapes them somewhere :)

Sigh...I don't like being specific because I believe that most people are intelligent enough to connect the dots for themselves. That, plus its a waste of time.

I'm only speaking from my own experience and what I've done.
If it helps you to believe that I've got some ulterior motive for it, then go ahead in not going to tell you what to think or believe.

Ok

Kek seething traditionalist

One problem I've seen with this board is that threads with questions more specific than "how 2 get gf? :(" or "haha why are women so shit?" often don't get answered. I'd say at least half of the incel posters here are listening but have learned that stubborn and pathetic posts get much more responses and they're just sifting through for new information.

Well, normies insist incel “problems” don’t exist because that conflicts with the normie just-world. No dialectic can happen when one position holds that the other doesn’t exist

People on this board are looking to feel good about themselves rather than actually give advice. It's easier to respond to the incel troll with righteous indignation than it is to offer thoughtful advice about a unique topic.

Believing shit like this is why incels exist.

I don't think anyone can come up with one thing, but loneliness in general started skyrocketing with the cultural revolution of the 60s, the average family structure also started shifting towards fewer children and degrading with higher divorce rates and more children out of wedlock and/or unknown fathers. Incels today are probably a sum of many factors that result in poorer socialization growing up and development of weaker more passive personalities.

You still haven't mentioned what "problems" incels have.

Divorce rates have been going down for a long time you know

there are none and that’s what incels don’t understand.

Depends on how you measure. Per 1000 population sure, but only because marriage rates per 1000 population have been dropping even faster.

Boomers are driving divorce rates. Younger people are divorcing much less. And having less casual sex.

Younger people aren't getting married in the first place, almost half the kids in the US right now are being raised without their dad.

Half? Got a source for that?

Incels are a death cult. By giving advice you may prevent some people on the from joining or reconsider their membership. But most times it doesn't work.

If someone actually asks for advice I would offer it but quit quickly if there is no response. If it's one of these "tfw no gf"-threads I would write something obvious like "have sex, incel".

US Census. I've found data that seems to conflict though. Pew Research puts "living with two biological parents", the sum of married biological parents (58%) and otherwise cohabiting biological parents (4%) at 62%.

Where's the source?

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/22/less-than-half-of-u-s-kids-today-live-in-a-traditional-family/

ifstudies.org/blog/more-than-60-of-u-s-kids-live-with-two-biological-parents/

I also got the sources in my other post backwards, Pew posts a lower figure for living without dad than the Census bureau.

The problem with most advice given to incels is that it engages only their surface-level delusions. But 'We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them'.

So how to approach it the right way? If you look at the way that incels think it's textbook C-PTSD. The way they are is the result of a lifetime of chronic emotional neglect, and often physical abuse, lack of father figures, bullying, social isolation, narcissistic mentally ill single mothers.

Incels don't need advice from women who have nothing but hate and disgust for them, they need positive male friends and role models in real life. Words don't teach, experience teaches. They need wingmen, friends, mentors who are truly there for them and to model positive lifestyle, attitude and behaviors for them to imitate, not Jordan Peterson jewtube videos or "game" books that were just made to make money and to puff up the authors' fame and vanity.