Does anyone else worry that incels are right about some things?

I'm not. This kind of response is what I'm talking about...how does a guy caring about looks change the fact that women care about looks too? I want a girl I think is cute, pretty much everyone wants to like the facial symmetry and overall body of the person they're having sex with. But again, there is this meme that oh, no, women don't care about looks at all, "I see fat and ugly guys with good looking girls all the time". I almost never see "fat and ugly guys with hot girls", I see completely average (by American standards, meaning a little overweight) guys with pretty girls, but neither of them are physically exceptional, as few people really are hot enough to write home about, if we're being honest.

cont...
>I was indifferent about them for years but nowadays you can't check a yt video about some movie without having tons of brainlets bitch about a girl in "their" star wars. Here on Jow Forums any thread that is even remotely related to anything female is going to be overrun by the bitching too; then add the pathetic defeatist attitude while still being ridiculously entitled. Even literal nazis are less of a cancer.
I see this too, but let's be honest, it's usually fringe internet groups who care about stuff like a black girl playing Ariel and I don't think that's specific to incels.

>incel fantasies
But what's fantasy, and what isn't? That's what I'm asking.

>but i've never seen any of the sort online and all incel pushback comes in the form of mockery of their entitled attitude rather than what they are trying to assert.
This is what has reinforced my belief that there is some validity to what incels say. I don't like to associate myself too closely with incels because of the way people perceive them (and how they often are) but they're not completely wrong, and that's borne out by an inability of their detractors to disprove incel claims.

>I'm not. This kind of response is what I'm talking about...how does a guy caring about looks change the fact that women care about looks too?

I mean, it's the fact that "women care about looks" is constantly brought up in incel threads and whatever as some sort of ground-breaking "red pill" truth that's supposed to blow our minds. Look at the top posts.

Of course women, and men, care about looks. We tend to first act/think with our genitals when it comes to dating.

It's not some sort of "incel truth" that people prefer it when other people are pleasant to look at.

>there is some validity to what incels say
like what?

why so defensive? He made no comment on what guys like because it's not the focus of the discussion. Of course guys care about looks.

>IDK dude. The Humans of New York facebook page posted a story about a guy (pic related) and the pushback is fucking insane. Notice the number of dissenting reactions and over 50,000 comments, compare it to the level of discourse on almost any other post HONY has made recently. The dude is basically saying "just work out and talk to lots of women in a certain way and you'll get laid", and it has women fucking fuming. I really don't think what the guy has done is nearly bad enough to warrant the reaction he's getting, but the fact that people feel so strongly about his words speaks magnitudes.
It reads like a mass shooter's manifesto. Just that edgy bit at the end I WAS MANIPULATED MY WHOLE LIFE SO WHY SHOULD I NOT MANIPULATE OTHER PEOPLE I AM THE JOKER

As I said above, it's considered some harsh, damning red pill truth because some people really take the whole "women don't care about looks at all" meme way too far. Yeah, arguably some don't but to say all or most don't is downright dishonest, yet I see that response on this board alone time and again. Even someone I used to know would keep telling me the same thing, yet all she ever mentioned about her then-boyfriend, now-husband is how good looking he was and how she didn't understand why he chose her when he's so hot etc.

Even if it's not an incel truth, people are pretty dishonest about how much they care about looks. And as much as people bitch about Tinder and similar apps pushing looks over all in dating, you have to kind of admit that if so many people weren't so shallow, Tinder would never flourish in the first place.

>why so defensive?
I asked one question, is that against the rules

no but it reeked of whataboutism

>it reads like a mass shooter's manifesto

Because he became a PUA and got laid a lot? I really don't see the mass shooter connection. Yeah, his attitude is worrying in how it affects the emotional wellbeing of others but I detect no trace of wanting to physically harm others. He clearly just wanted to get laid and went a great length to make it happen.

>"women don't care about looks at all"
>I see that response on this board alone time and again
>people are pretty dishonest about how much they care about looks

I've literally never heard anyone say that, who are you quoting

mass shooters often leave manifestos that read exactly like the thing he wrote, blaming society for their actions and all that. I'm not saying he's gonna go on a shooting spree, just that his blogpost reads exactly like those who do.

>but the fact that people feel so strongly about his words speaks magnitudes
If you remove the context. Say it being on a platform full of brainlets looking for attention and cause to be outraged like FB. It's not too representative of real people.

Besides, "The dude is basically saying "just work out and talk to lots of women in a certain way and you'll get laid"" just isn't correct given the added PUA crap in the post, even the guy admits that it's pathetic manipulation and justifies it with "b-but I was manipulated too, so it's okay for me to be a cunt now".

>it's usually fringe internet groups who care about stuff like a black girl playing Ariel and I don't think that's specific to incels.
They usually intersect and share similar enough opinions, so it's tricky to tell whether they are specifically incels, aut-righters or incel aut-righters without going in further.

>But what's fantasy, and what isn't? That's what I'm asking.
Rule of thumb ... pretty much all of it. For any specific thing you can do your own research, from different sources and try to get the whole picture, not hang up on some random study from a shitty dating site. Or maybe you can just skip wasting your precious time on this crap. It's not like it can lead anywhere. Incels who believe they are right just end up being miserable while trying to convince others how right they are. What is there possibly to gain from this?

Let's assume incels are 100% right, how would it change your life exactly? What things would you do differently?

I mean, I don't exactly save screenshots when it happens, but just in the past few days or so I've seen a lot of mentions of "fat and ugly guys with hot women". Actually, just look above you here

>We're less likely to be very attracted to guy because of his looks alone, but it's very common that people "grow" on us as we get to know them from my experience.
Sort of implies that men have a pass for being less appealing and make up with it in "personality", which usually feeds the false assertion that "women don't care about looks". I think what's meant to be said is that women weigh other qualities besides looks, or that looks are important but not all that matters, but why not just say that? I honestly think people are afraid to admit that they care about looks because it sounds shallow. I'll admit that it kind of is, but there's no need to feel this way if "nobody is entitled to sex, I can fuck whoever I want, and reject whoever I don't want to fuck". Right?

>mass shooters often leave manifestos just like this
IDK man, I think you're reading into it. It sounds like just another "red pill" type of dude, or somebody you'd see in the comments section of an RSD video.

What those women don't understand is that the alternative would be this guy killing himself in isolation or possibly committing a horrible crime.
Isolation stress is real and extremely harmful to human health. Stress-mediated disease is not taken seriously in today's medical culture and loneliness is pathologized and viewed as a mental illness in the culture at large, so of course people don't care about incels. It's the just world hypothesis/fallacy. If they are suffering, it must be their fault.
Finally, women do not understand anything about attraction. They just fucking don't. They are passive actors in the process of seduction for their entire lives. How old on earth would they know what it looks like when you're responsible for initiating and maintaining the entire fucking interaction?
It's so stupid. He clearly isn't "Hurting" anyone. People were just triggered by him using the word "manipulation." and women generally fucking HATE the idea that betas can level up.

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Like it or not, the "normies and brainlets" on FB are exactly the kinds of folks we deal with all the time IRL. But I digress...

>Let's assume incels are 100% right, how would it change your life exactly? What things would you do differently?
I'd give up on women entirely because I knew there would be no hope in hell for me to ever have a satisfying relationship. I can't give up though, I can't really believe fully in my heart that nobody could ever want me, despite my flaws and issues that I beat myself up for and laser in on in an attempt to discern why I haven't gotten laid yet.

It somewhat baffles me that women hate PUA guys.
It takes two to tango and women are willingly being picked up by these guys. They are doing this out of their free will.
It's not like these women are abused or anything. If anything, it proves that PUA stuff works.
I don't get it.

>Finally, women do not understand anything about attraction. They just fucking don't. They are passive actors in the process of seduction for their entire lives. How old on earth would they know what it looks like when you're responsible for initiating and maintaining the entire fucking interaction?

I kind of see a point in this. Like if you're one of those people that mystifies attraction as this magical thing you just "feel" and nothing else, something that cannot be complained or controlled. Then when a guy just admits that he got jacked and acted like a douchebag and it made women want to fuck him, these women feel used. This is almost like a "red pill" for women, realizing a lot of guys will say and do whatever it takes to try and get laid, including lying or manipulating. That they wouldn't care nearly as much about a random woman if she didn't have a magical orifice to pleasure him with. That kind of brutal truth - that men are just acting to get sex from you out of horninesss or a desire for validation - can sting a lot, and I suspect it's at the root of all those angry comments.

I always find the "women don't owe you sex" thing to be so strange, you can just imagine the smug look on their face while they type that out, I've never seen any incel indicate that women do, I'm not counting the nutcases saying womens rights should be taken away into this. Incels are crying out for help and trying to plead the life that they are expericing and the reply they get is: "you don't inherently deserve a good life". Fine, but no one is ever making that point in the first place

Really concise post. If anything the real concern should lie with the fact that women are (supposedly) falling for this. Women have no problem shaming men who are either ugly or likely have mental problems, yet a guy using their own ego against them is abhorrent, wtf?

It's hard to accept the fact that guys actually learned strategies and worked on certain aspects of their interactions with women in order to make sex happen more frequently. It goes entirely against this notion of "true love" where a guy just happens into your life and you fall for him because you're both amazing wonderful people and the world is all perfect. I suspect far more men have at least dipped their toes in the manosphere pool or at least had their dad, older brother etc. "teach them about women". But all that, the idea of having to learn "game" and how to act in a way that's attractive, well, it just shows women that men are not born inherently sexy, strong and confident. They don't seem to like that, but I can't say I fully understand it either.

PUA only works on certain kinds of women, and it also only works coming from certain types of guys

>well, it just shows women that men are not born inherently sexy, strong and confident
women aren't inherently born that way either what are you talking about it's all learned behavior

>We're less likely to be very attracted to guy because of his looks alone, but it's very common that people "grow" on us as we get to know them from my experience.
That goes both ways. I've been with girls that weren't just attractive to me at first but their personality was stronger than that.

>the frogposter, expert on women

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Telling somebody they're not owed sex isn't even helpful, and it's not even addressing the fears and concerns of a foreveralone (maybe we need to start calling them foreveralones or virgins now since "incel" is so toxic lately). Like, thanks for reminding me you don't have to sleep with me. I never said you did. But contrary to popular belief, "shedding toxic incel beliefs xD" is not usually how guys get laid. If it was, then that guy wouldn't have had so much success.

>I can't give up though
Then wasting your time on incel shit makes even less sense, since it'll work as a repellent. Besides, given how only few incels manage to actual give up women and focus on their fucking lives, it seems like the suboptimal belief system for that as well. There is literally zero way to win going that way.

Shit seems simple…
in a world where incels are wrong:
>if you follow their ideas you'll end up unhappy
>if you look for positive, self-affirming shit and fall for the b-urself meme, you might find a partner, you might not, but at worst you tried

in a world where incels are correct:
>if you follow their ideas you'll end up unhappy
>if you look for positive, self-affirming shit and fall for the b-urself meme, you won't find a partner, but at worst you tried

Trying to achieve/gain something sounds far better than giving up, even if you have zero chances to get it.

None of the women I've had a serious affection for and desire to be in a relationship with have ever been exceptional looking. If I had to form a "type" it would be your typical THICC IG girl, yet it's almost always small chested skinny girls because they made me feel genuinely cared about and respected.

No but they grow up and develop boobs and a butt and grow out long hair, and men who care about nothing but sex develop all these intense strategies for fucking them because that's all that they want to do. Those men, as insidious as it is, learned what women wanted and became or at least emulated it, and they wanted to fuck him because of that. He didn't grow into a muscular chiseled frame or just wake up one day and know how to talk to women in a seductive way. It's like they say, women simply are, but men have to become.

I was a hell of a lot unhappier before this incel stuff became more mainstream and talked about, as I felt entirely alone in my experience of life. I was around people who seemed to just be gliding by and getting what they want due to either good looks or having a good up-bringing with afforded them confidence, good social skills and just generally skills with granted them respect from others

It wasn't until all this incel stuff as cropped up that I see others have experienced a similar kind of life to myself, and as they say misery loves company. This isn't really disproving what your point is, to try and at least give yourself a fighting chance, but I think the main reason behind this incel ideology is to ease isolated mens minds and make them feel slightly more sane in an insane world

People act like trying has no cost, which is totally wrong.

>People were just triggered by him using the word "manipulation." and women generally fucking HATE the idea that betas can level up.
Don't flatter yourself. We see incel threads always trying to toot their own horns

>why do women hate incels
>why do women hate me for being a virgin
>why do females get triggered when I tell them that I'm MGTOW
>etc.

no one is mad or triggered or jealous, the whole world is laughing at you because you think that being autistic is an act of rebellion and something worth taking pride in.

>They just fucking don't. They are passive actors in the process of seduction for their entire lives. How old on earth would they know what it looks like when you're responsible for initiating and maintaining the entire fucking interaction?
why are you mad about that, why is it even a problem
is it cause you don't know how to talk to women?

what is the cost of trying

women still have to learn confidence and how to look good and how to flirt and everything that men do

The biggest is your sense of self worth. If you're unsuccessful romantically despite trying it takes a massive hit. Also to your reputation, if you're a poor flirt but keep trying enough you'll become a known creep.

>but I think the main reason behind this incel ideology is to ease isolated mens minds and make them feel slightly more sane in an insane world

that's the same logic that gave us "fat acceptance" and all this dumb shit in modern society. it's telling flawed people that they're not actually flawed it's society's fault for having unfair and unrealistic standards.

It's what we call a "circle jerk" in good internet lingo.

>we are not mad I swear
OK roastie

you sound like a drama queen faggot I've been rejected plenty of times everyone gets rejected at least once and you don't see us writing blogs about it and trying to blame our parents for it or whatever the "incel truth" might be

10/10 solid argument coming from the frogposter as always.

Yeah except incels are supposed to be responsible for their actions while everyone else can cry about being a victim

the difference between fat acceptance and incels is that fat acceptance has much more widespread (hehe) support. That's an interesting point though, I hadn't considered it before.

we live in an age where no one is responsible for anything and everyone has to be accepted for everything. Incels will be accepted as fat girls are, probably just as soon as they stop driving vans into crowds of people and going on shooting sprees.

>you sound like a drama queen faggot
That's some amazing lack of self awareness you have there, making such a ridiculously melodramatic post. Point to where I blamed my parents or the blogs I've written about it.

>but I think the main reason behind this incel ideology is to ease isolated mens minds and make them feel slightly more sane in an insane world
Oh definitely, just the good you can get from it is limited to moving from very unhappy to unhappy; at least based on what I get from incels. I don't recall a single one who is completely content with their life.

If you try enough, you'll start to take it less serious and won't see something like a rejection relevant enough to affect your self-worth. It's like with job applications. Getting a rejection for your first 10 would suck, for the first 100, it'd be devastating. Getting the 500th won't even make you shrug.

>Also to your reputation, if you're a poor flirt but keep trying enough you'll become a known creep.
You'd get the reputation if you're avoiding women too.

Lol they won't
Society doesn't give a fuck about men
Look how they treat abuse victims or how they ignore male suicides

Congratulations, you managed to focus on the most insignificant part of my post as well as miss the point entirely.
It has nothing to do with triggering women or making them feel angry. What purpose would that serve?
>is it cause you don't know how to talk to women?
You are resorting to typical shaming tactics here. It's funny; the more you interact with hysterical females about this stuff, the more you realize they really are one trick ponies.
The only problem is that women refuse to see show an ounce of empathy and their brains literally cannot comprehend how orientation toward self-improvement is not only good for the perceived incel, but GOOD FOR THEM TOO.
I'm not a fan of RSDTyler and PUA has a lot of problems, but I like this quote: "The only thing creepier than learning success with women is not learning success with women."

The problem with incels seem to be that they push the blame/issue away from themselves. They want it to be out of their control or something that is done to them. After all, it’s involuntary, so must be society and women who are doing it to them and not their responsibility. I can’t really find any truths or half-truths to incel-dom.

Oh, additionally: When I talk about trying, I don't mean shit like asking 500 women hoping for the best. It's about trying to make the best of your life and trying to get into social situations. That shit has zero downsides.

>they push the blame/issue away from themselves. They want it to be out of their control or something that is done to them
Sounds like feminists

For some yeah probably, but for me it was just knowing that *others* have experienced the same thing I have, with fat people it's quite clear physically that they are fat and such, but only until a few years ago was I even aware that others have experienced the same kind of life/situation or whatever that I have. Also I don't think that the real honest & sincere incels are not blaming themselves, but rather that they are not FULLY blaming themselves. They bring up the fact that they were born under circumstances that have alienated themself from a good chunk of society, and this alienation just gets worse and worse as time goes on. As far as circle jerks go yeah incel forums are that, but I've always found those places incredibly depressing and never go on there, I suspect a majority of incels find the entitled attitude pretty disgusting too

Incels are male feminists, instead of becoming a better person to attract a mate they stew in their hate and become uglier and uglier. If you watch an incel/feminist grow up they get nastier looking with age.
>Half truths
>There's a little truth in every lie

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If incels are male feminists doesn't the provide evidence of how much better women are treated? Feminists have huge amounts of support while incels are universally derided.

Not to have sex with handsome players they don't

Women have been a protected group throughout history. This is nothing new

I mean that kind of supports the incel worldview...

Who's quote is that user?

The difference being that feminists points are logically incorrect most of the time and misunderstand the bigger picture, yet are given heaps of support. With incels you can attack their attitude towards life and call them entitled, but this doesn't damage the point they make whatsoever, the points made always stand - it's just a matter of 'manning up' and dealing with it

But Incels go against the grain on purpose to piss people off and waste everyone's time by hating womens natural state of being. It's like you being mad at the sun for rising in the morning.

I know what you mean, but from societies point of view a single man is not contributing to the economy or possibly having his kids be doctors helping the sick. Society sees it as a waste of potential so they shame Incels because of that, not really anything personal or they think having a family makes you special.

Yeah, except incels have no history of systematic oppression.

what oppression have feminists my age experienced that I haven't?

I think you've essentially hit the nail on the head here - the problem with being an incel is that your future potential has been harshly limited, due to both factors out of your control and how you deal with these factors. Your grow as a human has now been crippled, limiting what you can offer back to society. Then when incels try to bring this point up and have a discussion about it they are talked down to and dehumanised, further alienating these people. These people also being the types that constructed the foundation of society to begin with, engineers, various civil working boomers I've spoke to IRL would be 100% incels in this current time. This is the essential incel problem in my eyes and treating them like scum isn't helping anyone. I'm not saying you are, but the general sentiment seems to be this way

I don’t know, i don’t know you. But feel free to mention a half-truth or truth to incel-dom instead of this.

you made the claim they've experienced a "history of systematic oppression". Again what "history of systematic oppression" has some 20 year old feminist experienced that I haven't?

>Society doesn't give a fuck about men
society is run by men though

incels go on killing sprees explicitly because of their incel beliefs, so of course society including other men don't give a fuck about them

>women's natural state of being
So you're saying they are right?

>everyone I don't like is autistic
Kill yourself neurotypical scum.

Feminists fight for the rights and equality of all women across the world. Even if some 20 year old California bimbo who moved to NYC on daddy's money calls herself a feminist that doesn't diminish the struggle of say women in Afghanistan.

to say that incels haven't been treated like shit all their lives is quite naive.

>incels go on killing sprees explicitly because of their incel beliefs
name even a dozen who have done this. Go on there's literally billions of people so it should be easy. Better yet, prove that incels are more likely than the population at large to go on a rampage.

>Does anyone else worry that incels are right about some things?
Not even a little.

>the whole world is laughing at you because you think that being autistic is an act of rebellion and something worth taking pride in.
Being autistic is an act of rebellion, but being autistic has nothing to do with being an incel.
I don't really hope that retarded neurotypicals such as you are able to grasp concepts like 'hypersexuality' anyway.

Everyone goes through shit in their lives, it doesn't justify driving a van through a crowded street because you think Chad stole all the virgins.

so you're including everyone across the world? That's fine but what makes you think men aren't oppressed globally as well?

>Feminists fight for the rights and equality of all women across the world
Wrong, you are wrong retard. Feminism is probably one of the biggest reactionary and pro-establishment movements that exist in the world as we know it.
Peak ideology.

why a dozen? I only need to name one, Le Supreme Gentleman that's been worshipped by r9k for years.

Bonus incel: that other retard up in Toronto last year who actually posted on Jow Forums and drove a car through crowds of people.

Men run society, so they're opressed by other men. What does inceldom have to do with this? You want to smash the patriarchy?

Incels are right pretty much about everything they say.
The problem is not what they think or what they say, the problem is what they do.
c'est la vie, incels are degenerates and genetic dead ends that will be physically removed. Their resistence is not only making their extinction less probable, they are accelerating its arrival.

One incel killing people doesn't make all incels killers. Why make this generalization with incels and not human beings as a whole? There is literally no reason not to and it is evident that you are allowing unnamed factors sway your opinion, masking it as objectiveness.

oh wow you called me a retard twice, excellent point there I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess I'm an incel now because of that epic red pill.

2 people have killed others because of incel beliefs. A whole two people. Wow, I know I'd cross the street if I saw an incel walking past me. Truly dangerous stuff and not something overhyped by the media.

Once actually.

so, two people. How exactly is this indicative of every incel in existence?

>all incels are killers
I didn't say that at all. I said that incels have gone on killing sprees explicitly because of their incel beliefs. That is 100% objectively true. Sorry.

If a man is a king and I'm a conscripted peasant sent out into the field to be slaughtered by a knight I'm not going to stop and say "wow those poor women are so oppressed, they're not kings after all"

>indicative of every incel
I didn't say it was. I simply said that incels have gon one killing sprees because of their incel beliefs which is a true fact of life. That is why people are suspicious of incels.

Of course all the other shit that's written by incels on Jow Forums and everywhere else doesn't help their cause.

Again, what does inceldom have to do with this?

you're comparing people like me to feminists like they're more oppressed, but they aren't.

you used a single incel's retarded actions as an example of why all incels are bad. How is you equating the actions of a single person to the entirety of people who happen to share the same label not generalizing all incels as killers? If you weren't trying to say all incels are killers, then why use the example of a single person as a reason to think everyone is like them? What reason is there to not believe that all human beings in existence are murderers, just because this one man killed people?

>Everyone goes through shit in their lives, it doesn't justify shooting famous artists because you think men systematically oppress women.

Incels have every right to be depressed and angry. The world doesn't give a shit about them. Women and children. Maybe the Dog. Then theres men. Whats the one thing harder than being a man? Thats easy, being an antisocial man, an introverted man, even a shy man. Ive seen ugly men with women but unless a man is very good looking or wealthy the world doesnt hand much to him unlike his female counterpart. So here he is trying and trying while he looks over to the other gender simple receiving and rejecting what hes working so hard for like its nothing. I don't care what gender, race or species you are but that causes anger. Rage. So yes, i understand understand why there are incels. I understand their anger, and I empathize with these bros. Im not good with women either but I dont love women enough to constantly talk about them like they do. Think, If they didn't care would they keep talking about women? Nobody consistently talks about or researches something they don't care about. May all of them, even the ones so angry they reject every good hearted women to come in their life, live a decent life and I hope they find it in their heart to forgive the wrongdoings of women in their life and succeed over whatever keeps them down.

There are examples of black people going out and killing people for racially charged reasons. There are also black people that have said shitty things on the internet that would not help their cause. Does this mean that we should expect all of them to be violent? Should we not sympathize with them as a whole because some have decided to be shitty people?