Does toxic masculinity actually exist or is it another retarded way feminists shame men...

Lies.

Toxic men don't listen. It exists but mind radfems are gonna falsely weaponize it.

t. Feminist

Just another form of shit test like all of feminism

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It's a thing, but it's also fuled by the values ingrained by toxic masculinity. Both exist and are bad, the male one is just worse.

>another incel thread blaming feminists for their virginity

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I've only seen it happen in one case: guy opens up to you, realises you don't mind him being emotional, he starts using you as his therapist because he has no one else to talk to, he unloads shit ton of negative stuff on you on a daily basis.

My boyfriend and I have shared personal shit with each other, but we're not each other's therapists. I've held his head while he was crying, he sat with me through my panic attacks, but we don't expect each other to constantly work us through our emotional issues. No one should expect their partner to do that.

beep beep

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Showing weakness is fine. Emotionally vomiting on anyone at the drop of a hat isn't. I don't want that shit from a woman either.

I have never seen feminists do this, they always just blame men for everything.

>Yeah except when you show women your weak emotional side she loses interest in you, me and my friends have enough experience with this.

We see threads all the time that are like
>There's a girl that sits in my class and she barely knows I exist, tomorrow I'm going to bring her flowers and confess to her that I love her, what kind of shirt should I wear
that's not what people mean by showing your emotional side. There's a time and a place and context.

The funniest thing about incels is that they actually think there are women on Jow Forums, so anytime another guy makes fun of them for being an incel it's roasties this and female that. everytime.

They don't. Read more about feminism, and listen to more feminists.
Feminists generally want women to be better to themselves and to each other, too.

>How come they never talk about it to the most "toxic" men?

Because those men won't listen obviously.

There definitely are men hating feminists browsing this board

>Does toxic masculinity actually exist
Don't let the stigma that the internet has given buzzwords discourage you from gaining some perspective. Toxic masculinity definitely exists and, funny enough, its mostly perpetuated by men onto other men. Young men don't learn toxic masculinity from their mothers or other women. They learn it from their fathers.

Toxic masculinity is the basic concept of sacrificing your own mental or physical health for the sake of protecting your image and/or self-perception of masculinity. This can take the form of being shamed for crying or at all appearing emotional, being forced to participate in masculine hobbies/skill and being denied the opportunity to participate in anything that may be considered as feminine. Its being taught that internalizing your emotions and refusing to be vulnerable is how a man is supposed to behave in a relationship and being shamed for having anxiety, depression, bipolar et., or any other disorder that may make you appear weak.

Every time a dad yells at his son for crying, or telling him to "just stop complaining and suck it up" when he's genuinely feeling sad and confused or even when your male friends call you a pussy for being depressed after a break-up/serious life event, that is an example of toxic masculinity being perpetuated.

The point is, don't mistake what you see on the internet as the general belief of all feminists or even women in general. Most reasonable people understand on some base level how damaging it can be to teach young men to swallow weakness and mask their pain with aggression or violence. Get off the internet and talk about this with real life people. This place is not populate by individuals who are emotionally equipped to have honest conversations about these concepts.

yeah I don't think so. It's just other guys making fun of you for being an incel frogposter.

How do they want them to be better? Why don't they call out radicals more often?

Not as pathetic as white knight cucks who actually think calling other people incels online will get them laid

nobody actually thinks this
it's yet another incel cope lmao

Its so cute you actually think any woman would spend her time coming to this autist-hug box and justify their existence to a bunch of incels. There are no men here, by the way. There is no universe in which the emotionally dysfunctional teens who populate Jow Forums could be considered anything even remotely resembling an actual representation of your average man.

ofc it exists.

Preach it.

are you not an incel

Toxic masculinity usually comes from men putting other men down, feminism shed a light on the issue. You seem to not understand what any of this means so in would google the words and just read more.

>Why don't they call out radicals more often?
Because radicals are few and far between in the real world. You've been trained to believe that radicals make up a larger percentage of feminists than they actually do because those are the only feminists who ever get any exposure in the media or online. Nobody is interested in clicking on a link of a reasonable, well-adjusted woman having a constructive conversation about gender equality so the only feminists that get any exposure are the ones with bright pink armpit hair and megaphones screaming in the meat section of Walmart. You've been bombarded with so much meme and Jow Forums propaganda you've been deluded into believing that "radical" feminism is this scourge plaguing the discourse between feminists and their detractors when in reality they are hardly a blip in the radar outside of the internet.

I often see stuff online about women not talking shit about other women: not critiquing people's bodies, not talking shit behind other women backs, etc. Promoting a more positive and true communication between women. Rethinking phrases like "I'm not like other girls", or "women are too much drama, I prefer being friends with guys".

t.

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>I often see stuff online
Well, there's your issue. Stop thinking that clickbait you read on the internet is representative of real life society. Get off of your computer and talk to real life people about this stuff.

>radicals are few and far between
Then why are they so influential? Minorities always have more power.
Is it for the same reason most people think mens rights activists women hating losers?

Fair enough, where can I find such articles?

how many incel-cope pictures do you have saved to your hard drive is that how you think you're gonna get laid

It's funny how you said nothing of substance and keep resorting to personal attacks
Incel truly is the new cuck

What? I think all that shit is good and realistic. Not being a bitch isn't a radical notion.

Body positivity movement (especially before it became mostly about fat acceptance) for example. Promoting more realistic ideas of how female bodies look like, decreasing the use of photoshop in advertisement, etc.

How come there are lots of male feminists but no female MRAs?

there are

theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-now-president-who-became-a-mens-rights-activist/372742/

>Then why are they so influential?
They aren't. Like I said, outside the walls of the internet the "radicals" you're so fixated on don't really take up any real estate in civilized society.

>Minorities always have more power.
This makes absolutely zero sense. The vocal minorities make better clickbait, that's all. It isn't power. They're just being satirized by online sensationalists to get people like you all riled up and angry.

>Is it for the same reason most people think mens rights activists women hating losers?
I've never met an MRA that wasn't a loser. I've never met an MRA that didn't advocate for men's rights primarily as a reaction to feminism as opposed to a standalone ideal that he genuinely cared about. That's just my anecdotal experience.

There is. Like any other retarded group of people, they really like being heard on any media platform

Most issues brought up by MRAs are the backside of issues brought up by feminism.

"Male kill themselves more" is a result of toxic masculinity: men have no support network and no one to talk to, they feel like they failed if they can't provide, etc.
"divorce drama" is a result of women being viewed as mothers and wives, unable to look after themselves.
"domestic violence and rape to men is ignored" is, again, toxic masculinity at its finest.

>everything is fault of toxic masculinity and patriarchy
flawless logic

>It's funny how you said nothing of substance and keep resorting to personal attacks
ran out of pictures already?

>everything
he didn't say that, stop being a drama queen.

Try to understand what patriarchy and toxic masculinity mean.
Patriarchy doesn't mean that all men are assholes who oppress all women, it means that we've lived for thousands and thousands of years in a societal structure that works in a certain way.
Toxic masculinity doesn't mean that men are toxic, it means that there is a certain stereotype of what being men is that hurts men a lot.

So yes, a LOT of men issues are due to toxic masculinity and the fact that men are seen as providers and women as carers.

No I just got tired of your baiting

Both of them are rooted in the same fundamental delusion of functional equality of the sexes. It's no surprise they both view imbalance in any statistical set as some sort of injustice rather than a natural or obvious outgrowth of inherent differences. Obviously their focus will be on their respective genders, but the basic assumption behind judgements is the same.

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Can I ask a serious question to you all. “Toxic Masculinity” does exist as described, but I currently do not believe it to be deserving of the adjective “toxic”. Psychological conditioning is first and foremost a tool. Tools can be used for both good and evil. Mainstream thought concludes that peer pressure is a tool that can be used either way. So I ask why there is so much focus on it. I don’t even believe that a little bit of human suffering is all that bad of a way to accomplish one’s own or a society’s goals. As time goes on I’m convinced more and more that the idea of “toxic” masculinity has existed for a long time in the west and other historically patriarchal cultures. It seems like it is now being challenged due to this idea no longer reflecting society’s mold of how men are supposed to be. So again, what makes one mold of a society better than another? The idea that a society can be better than another due to subjective morals rather than something measurable is something I just won’t accept.

Can you read a full paragraph or you read "oppressed" and posted the meme?

oh I guess you didn't run out of incel pictures after all.

he wants to trigger the imaginary roasties that live in his head and he thinks are on Jow Forums.

This is the most intellectually vapid and poorly argued shit I've seen on the internet today, and that's after visiting 5 different websites including this one that are infested with emotionally stunted trolls.

Why are you still lurking this thread normalfaggot

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>The idea that a society can be better than another due to subjective morals rather than something measurable is something I just won’t accept.
You don't have to accept it but the concept of toxic masculinity (or whatever verbiage you want to use) has an objective and measurably impact on men. There's so much focus on it because the kind of masculinity we needed 100 years ago doesn't exist anymore. We no longer live in a society where a man needs to know how to hunt or fish or strangle an attacker with his bare hands just to survive on a day to day basis. The archetype of the typical man has evolved drastically over the past century and society is just trying to keep up. I think men suffering from higher levels of mental illness, higher suicide rates and greater extents of interpersonal dysfunction isn't an issue we can just ignore. I don't think society needs to be turned upside down so much as we just could all learn to give a little bit more of a shit about each other. It seems like an obtainable goal, user.

it's how women domesticate men. problem is: women aren't sexually attracted to domesticated men. Classic case of women being stupid and being beta gets you nowhere.

So do you have an argument at all or are ad homs all you can muster?

Women don't teach men how to be emotionally stunted assholes. Other men do.

Why don't you tell that to

He didn't respond to them. He responded directly to a post of an individual describing the general framework of toxic masculinity by tossing ad homs and not actually articulating what about the post was intellectually vapid or poorly argued.

>The idea that a society can be better than another due to subjective morals rather than something measurable is something I just won’t accept.
It depends on what axiomatic set of principles you want to base a society on. Given such basic conditions, then you have a metric whereby you can determine the proper standards/moral codes for a society which maximize a desired outcome.

Almost nobody actually does this (or would be willing to or even capable of, for that matter), of course--the usual thing is that people treat whatever surface-level attitudes they have at the moment as being an inviolable axiom in itself. And that's bullshit which gets you nowhere but shouting matches with anyone who isn't your clone. This is to say, any axiomatic conditions you pick must be as simple as possible--for example, a good condition would be "nonviolence", whereas a retarded one which misses the point would be "no trespassing on another's immediate residential property".

tl;dr certain standards of behavior produce certain outcomes, and if you don't want those outcomes, then it follows you won't want the behavior. While you can understand where people complaining about "toxic masculinity" are coming from, you don't have to agree with their goals.

posting pics from your women-hate folder is not an argument about anything

No, I'm pretty sure my mother and her 'quit your whining' attitude she picked up from her mother also contributed to my lack of healthy coping habits.

Do you come from ten thousand generations of single moms?

Yeah, see incels, for one.

My father was fairly distant from me from when I was about 13 to 18. Or maybe I was distant from him. I can't really tell. All I remember is that while they did want the best for me, they rarely if ever gave me a sense of accomplishment in anything I did. Anything grand I did was just business as usual. Yeah, I had some toxic male influence, like my football coach, but really I was just left hanging a lot. I tried to make friends, but friends didn't really like making me, I guess.
Plus my mother had this habit of throwing parties for adults that I knew nothing about and expected me to come out for anyways. But I went over to a friend's house maybe five times in as many years. It just made me feel like I was someone being carted around for their appeasement. We went hiking as a family sometimes, but none of the kids liked it because it was forced as fuck (again, by Mom).
I barely know how to fish, partly because I was easily bored as a kid or I had homework to do or it was one of those forced family fun things. My mother literally described herself as a benevolent dictator, which pretty much summarized my relationship with her.
By the time I finally got an appreciation for the things my dad liked to do, it was far too late.

Yeah, no mother has ever told her son to "be a man" lol

That's something they learned from their father/husband and society at large. men run society and ran it for thousands and thousands of years and dictated social norms. That men have to be strong and can't show weakness and everything is something that was devised by our male ancestors.

>It's not my fault I continue perpetuating bad examples
How do you think those bad examples keep getting perpetuated, then?

Toxic masculinity was originally a good point, and could be summarized as "standards of masculinity that force you to be something that you don't want to be". It was more or less a reformulation of the liberal attitude (and hence utterly redundant but gender studies have to come up with dumb shit to justify a continued existence).
You can summarize the whole concept as "when standards force you to not be yourself that's bad".

Toxic masculinity as it is being used today is all bullshit from people that validation for their current existence.

>obviously
If everyone had your level of scientific rigor we'd still be sitting in caves trying to figure out if rocks were edible.

it's how both men and women are raised.

I am well aware of what it stands for. And there is nothing even remotely true or innovative about it. It's just a way to shame dudes and to make up a bogeyman for why women aren't responsible for themselves.

So is there any real scientific research on this that is not a literature review, case study, multiple case study or anything that supersedes at least two criteria of the 4 criteria of causality on "toxic masculinity"?

>I've held his head while he was crying
That's called a girlfriend.

>standards of masculinity that force you to be something that you don't want to be".
This could literally be covered by the word "social pressure". Like "intersectionality" could be covered by the word alliance.

The reason why these words were created was not scientific, but political. It resembles the creation of words in Moaist China.

Hahahah
No. Feminists are pretty much the worst of women, talking shit, being spiteful, judgmental, petty, vindictive, and dishonest both to others and to themselves. I have never seen a feminist take responsibility for her own actions, only blame others for everything befalling her.

>It resembles the creation of words in Moaist China
what did you mean by this

>I have never seen a feminist

Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that women teach men how to be emotionally stunted assholes as much as other men nowadays.

Also what you said is a very reductive take on how cultural norms develop. I agree that men had a greater impact on them historically, since they had more social capital, but to say it's something they just created by themselves is ridiculous, women always contributed to some extent to the development of cultural norms.

it has 40 different definitions so it simultaneously does and does not exist.

During Moaist China, Chinese was simplified with a lot of words conveying political meaning either altered or thrown out. Furthermore, during the Great Leap forward and the Cultural Revolution words were introduced that specifically targeted the identity of groups of people. Such as "rightists", "rich landowners", "struggle against the rightist practices", "Troublesome anti-revolutionairy ideas" (such as when southern Chinese provinces and Tibet expressed whishes to be independent). Unless you were shitposting, than too bad.

shockingly good and reasonable post.

historically, women used to be property so no I disagree that they're equally to blame for gender-based societal norms that were set into motion thousands of years ago.

>Moa
You don't even know how to spell Mao's name right and it's only three letters lol. Somehow I doubt that you're an expert on this topic.

>Young men don't learn toxic masculinity from their mothers or other women.
It is always a problem when a boy learns about being a man from his mother. The problem is the opposite of what you describe.
>. This can take the form of being shamed for crying or at all appearing emotional, being forced to participate in masculine hobbies/skill and being denied the opportunity to participate in anything that may be considered as feminine.
This is interestingly enough all non-manly things. A man does what he decides to do, not what others decide he should do. Again, you are wrong.
>Its being taught that internalizing your emotions and refusing to be vulnerable is how a man is supposed to behave in a relationship and being shamed for having anxiety, depression, bipolar et., or any other disorder that may make you appear weak.
Internalizing your emotions is an important part of being a controlled and functional adult. If anything, more women should learn that skill. being vulnerable is something you should only do with the people that truly care about you. The only thing you are right about is shaming for anxiety and depression.
>Every time a dad yells at his son for crying, or telling him to "just stop complaining and suck it up" when he's genuinely feeling sad and confused
This is exactly what a father should do if his son is breaking down instead of resolving the issue. Obviously not a 4 year old, but if a 15 year old boy starts crying when he is capable of handling the problem presented, then telling him to suck it up and fixing it is the correct course of action.
> male friends call you a pussy for being depressed after a break-up/serious life event
have never heard of this or seen this. I suspect it is a very specific example and quite dishonest to include in a description of toxic masculinity as a systemic issue.
>Most reasonable people
Most reasonable people aren't feminists, so yes that works wonders.

>the retroactive feedback fallacy and presentism.

This is on the same level of retardation of immigrants coming into my country and claiming social security because muh colonialism. Fuck off.

Did you even read what I said? I specifically mentioned that I agree that men had a higher impact on our current social norms. Do you just want to yell at someone?

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Body positivity is a cancer. It takes a truly pathetic human being to try and change the perspective of beauty instead of working towards becoming beautiful.

What about words like SJW and Snowflake and White Knight and Cuck and S oy Boy and Feminazi?

Does it only count when people that you disagree with do it? Everyone loves to simplify their political opposite and come up with petty nicknames. Mao has nothing to do with it. it has nothing to do with "toxic masculinity" either it's a perfectly valid term that explains what it is.

>Every time a dad yells at his son for crying, or telling him to "just stop complaining and suck it up" when he's genuinely feeling sad and confused or even when your male friends call you a pussy for being depressed after a break-up/serious life event, that is an example of toxic masculinity being perpetuated.

That's mostly just called not being an asshole or toughing-up.