A Question

And why should our society be based on markets and businesses?
Why can't they be owned and worked democratically by the workers?

see
see
Commies have to understand not everyone is capable of making economic decisions for a business, and in fact most people are not capable of this.

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Because businesses and markets are literally how we survive.
Marx said this himself, you stupid commie, the economy is how we interact with our environment to get things we need.

You do not own your wife.
/your shitty leftypol meme

Why can't you make your own worker owned company?

Because worker ownership democratizes all decision making, leading to slower and shittier decisions that lead to lower efficiency and the downfall/stagnation of the business. Worker representation through unions is a much better solution as well as the state keeping employers in line through laws. Retarded libertarians will still hate this though because it prevents capital from fucking over everyone.

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Because commies destroy everything they touch

The worker absolutely can own the means and all of the profits of his production, he just has to start the business. If you are too much of a pussy to take the risk then you work for someone else like most of us do...

>You do not own your wife.
But you should

Why does being first matter?
Is that worth taking your hard earned labour to pad his mansion?
A producer is not someone who owns a business, it's the people actually making things.
If a worker made something why does he have to give more of his labour back to the capital owner?

>Why does some dude have to take a cut of everything you do at your workplace just because he was there first?
This happens in every system.

Marx isn't the only one writing about socialism you realise?
Business ownership is not the only way things can be run, and is far from the most ethical.

because the working class is All blighters and seedy blokes, init?

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Because innovation and entrepreneurs are needed to keep a society as up to date as possible and capable of competing with other world powers. See East vs West Germany. That being said, that specific individual should only be allowed to earn a limited amount of capital, which would prevent the monopolization we see from especially from the tech sector.

Market socialism will still suffer from the same problems of democratization, democratic decision making is one of the worst ways for decisions to be made.

You could actually but they are often harder to start. Banks don't like giving loans to cooperatives but there are examples of successful ones.

Commie can get fucked. But with more abstract things like software or circuit board design, things get more sketchy. Yes, my company owns the CAD and code development software, but I could just as easily design the circuits or program it myself without those things. Keep in mind, companies will pay employees as wagecucks and then put the patent in the company's account.
>Sure, you get your name on it, goy, but we keep the royalties.
>in b4 "(((intellectual property rights))) fix this"

Because it isn't your workplace, it's his workplace and his machinery and his money paying your wages.

Socialist countries have a higher GDP growth rate than capitalist ones, so it can't be that inefficient.
I support unions, of course, but I still think that capitalism is unethical. There'd even be some who'd say unions slow things down too, so why is saying democratizing the work place bad because it'd be slower valid?

>labor theory of value
Just fucking stop. And learn to spell, you retard.
>If a worker made something why does he have to give more of his labour back to the capital owner?
You understand you can make your own worker owned business, right? Ones like Hy-Vee are good and successful. The difference between that and your commie ideal of BURGLARY is that it is voluntary.

Capitalists are much better at that.
It's like a dictatorship that you can't opt out of.

>Why can't workers own the products they produce, and the means to produce it
they could its called self employment

>hardware and software design is operating machinery
Are you addled, bong? I don't even own what's been made in my own head?
Fuck commies. Fuck corporatism. They both get the rope.

See

East Germany had higher GDP growth than West Germany throughout the Cold War.

The DDR was poorer because it was half the size of the Federal Republic, less industrialized at the start of the split, and more devastated by WWII.

The Eastern Bloc was quite effective at technological innovation given their general backward starting conditions relative to the West.

Most Eastern Germans today view the DDR positively. spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

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It doesn't have to, so why put up with it?
Explore some new ideas

>NO U
Commies fall for a simplistic ideology: Rich= bad, poor= good. That's why your retarded way of government always fails.

Because socialist countries have authoritarian governments, thus can organize available resources and labor much more quickly. See the economic recovery in fascist countries vs democracies during the Great Depression for another example. Democracy is a poor way to make decisions and is wrongly worshiped. Most solid leadership comes from a single man unilaterally making decisions. People who don't like unions are just dumb libertarians who can be ignored since they won't ever actually do anything because it would be a collective action.

Eat shit and die pinko.

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lol then why your people ran away from that hell (East Germany)? lol.

You LIAR.

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women aren't property

Listen, I'm absolutely a fan of the DDR and Soviet socialism was the clear preferable alternative to liberalism after the destruction of fascism. That being said, that system had innate problems with inefficiency. Things like the Trabant are clear examples of this along with computing technology. The Soviet Socialist system was unfortunately out competed by the liberal, capitalist West. Reactionary and conservative anti-communism is also just stupid, but one needs to exam the Eastern Bloc critically as well.

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>Why can't workers own the products they produce, and the means to produce it?
They can, if they stop bitching and start their own business instead of being lazy poorfags who think they're entitled to all reward from the risk that others took to create their position.
>Why does some dude have to take a cut of everything you do at your workplace just because he was there first?
Because, subhuman commiefag, "that dude" fronted the money to buy the materials, the equipment, and the building the items are made in, and is the one whose finances are on the line if things go poorly.
Why can't commie fucktards EVER understand simple concepts? Or, are you intentionally trying to make communism appear as retarded as it is to dissuade people from caring to know more about it? Either way, that's what happened here.

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Sadly not anymore

They can. By buying it.
Why do you think you are entitled to things?
Start a commune, faggot.

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People still invent stuff in socialist countries.
Why does economic gain have to be the centre of all political theory?
Comparing East and West Germany becomes a lot harder to do once you start looking outside of economics.

The NVA had some pretty cool uniforms too, and maintained some semblance of German military tradition.

Why's that?
Care to explain?

dude - socialism make that the means of production owns by the Government - not by the PEOPLE. The govt establish an equal pay to everyone - except for their socialist elites. Socialism it's a FRAUD.
IT'S JUST A SILLY EXCUSE TO BAN PRIVATE PROPERTY, INHERITANCE, AND THEN BE OWNED BY THE STATE... IT'S SHIT. AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF PICTURES, AND PROOFS OF IT.

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>tfw your entire political system gets BTFO'ed by Jell-O Pudding Pops

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Nobody is stopping aspiring commies to try out this experiment. If you want to live in communist society, get together with the rest who do too and create one for yourslves. There's definitely enough of you to start it. However, there won't be enough ingenuity and selflessness between you to make it a prosperous society. Good luck!

Distributing labor isn't a new thing that is only solved by markets.
And what you described about company ownership is not the same as collective ownership.

Not as much. Comparing computing tech in the DDR vs West Germany shows how much they were lagging behind. Economic gain is very much important as it is needed for a more prosperous nation that isn't going to get crushed by other international powers. That being said, that economic gain needs to be spread amongst the people fairly, and not hoarded by a small number of capitalists. That's the state's job to ensure that happens.

YUP.
youtu.be/t8LtQhIQ2AE
Next time, do a deep research about the fucking ideology you praise.
> Muh Soviet Union was very prosperous...
>so prosperous and productive the USSR!!! Yeah!!!

lol.

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See

Yeah, their uniforms looked like Wehrmacht uniforms, even the helmet was actually a 3rd Reich era design.

Democratic decision making is just inferior to unilateral authoritarian decision making. It's much slower and does not allow for all resources to be organized as quickly as possible. It also has to rely on those who might not be able to make good, rational decisions.

You tagged the wrong person. I was responding to the commie.

Because the evil capitalist took a risk in starting a business, unlike the workers who just get a paycheck just for showing up and doing their jobs.

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OK, retard...they can.
It's called "Employee-Owned," and it's pretty common, these days.

nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100

Now quit whining like a Jew, and go out there and make things you want, happen.
It's the American way.

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So why not answer the questions I first posed?

It seems to me that counties that are most capitalist are most industrialized and therefore need more materials as well as providing competition for smaller countries to also make profit, allowing larger western companies to destroy and reap their natural resources.

Oh, sorry. I though you was the OP.

l@l.

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I wouldn't argue that true communism hasn't been tried. I'd argue it's worth trying differently however.
Enjoy being a wagecuck

Seriously dude - if you're looking for wealth, embrace LIBERTARIANISM...

LIBERTARIAN COUNTRIES: QATAR, SINGAPORE, TAIWAN, SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, SAUDI ARABIA.

VERY PROSPEROUS COUNTRIES...

Don't praise socialism - it's a failed ideology.

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>t. bong faggot

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Fascism makes for great economic gains at the cost of its people, most of them unwanted but also undeserving of such a fate.
Communist/socialist countries can be very nicely organised democratically, see Cuba

Yup :0)

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What am I going to do with the pipe fittings I make?

You were already answered by other anons, I just wanted to give my opinion on how stupid communism is.

Get paid more in the West, offering a better quality of life for you and your family but at the expense of the people you leave behind and the people whose job you take.
Defectors also commonly got paid for telling "stories" about the DDR.

>these old people are dead
good one, tell that to Reagan or Hitler
oh wait

>democratic
>Cuba
Shut the fuck up already you insufferable faggot. There's a dictatorship in Cuba right now

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I don't want money.
I want people to have a good quality of life without it being at the expense of others.

For the same reason you’ll never have a real vagina.

You must know much better than me. You had a socialist president... El Señorito Correa... I'm glad that you chose to vote him out.

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Perstroika ruined the USSR.
If you were to actually read anything about the history of the USSR, particularly from the perspective of visitors to the Soviet Union, you'd realize this video wasn't the normal day to day reality of life in the USSR.
Even the CIA admitted that Soviet citizens ate as well as US citizens but probably had a better diet.

I know I'm going to feel dirty for responding, but it's because workers aren't engineers, and they aren't for the most part able to handle a company of more then just a few people. It's about the education and IQ, in that order, sadly.

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lol. But govt overtaxing you at 70%? You must do a math about how socialism can affect in the other side.

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Fascist economics are objectively the best, balancing both capitalism and socialism. German and Italian reindustrialization was done at the fraction of the cost of the Five Year Plan. Fascist countries had way, way better economic prosperity for the average citizen than both the capitalist and socialist countries at the time.

start a farm and you will faggot

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That's not the problem, there's a lot of NPCs here still praising him like a semi-god. I'd love if someone in Belgium murders that faggot's ass to see his minions malfunction here.

They can and sometimes do.
But it's really successful because humans don't operate that way.

But then you have to pay the workers.

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Because most people are retarded.

Whennyoubown your own business you can you fucking useless piece of shit

You're talking about the people who lived in urban areas... The USSR did atrocious things... Expropriating farmers' properties, sending them into gulags...

If you want socialism in your country, fine. But you must say bye to your neighborhoods - if you live in a rural area -, say bye bye to your house, say bye bye to your savings...

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the only product you produce is feces

They can, literally nothing is stopping a bunch of people from pooling together funds to start a company, then all the workers are part owners

Why take the risk?
Why is risk worth putting people on the streets penniless and hungry?
Risk is what led to every economic crisis in the past 100 years, is it worth the death toll?
Is it worth 1% of the population hoarding money while people actually die as a result of their exploitation?
Why does everything have to make money?
Why can't people be entitled to healthcare, food, water, and shelter?

Socialism isn't hard to understand, unless you only care about money.

you can, you just start your own business. but then commies will come and demand that they own your stuff instead of buying their own.

>t. commie swine

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Why doesn't the worker just start his own business, or put his own money into the business he works for?

Fuck off, stupid commie kid. You are one dense piece of paki trash. Prove you're a white Englishman. Post your teeth.

So you're not entitled to your pay?
I mean all you do is function in your company and provide a service, someone else could probably do your job.
Why are you entitled to your house?
All you did was pay for it, with money from your labor.

You're allowed to be entitled to things

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The education system in UK seems to be very moronic.

No base
No historic data

Just only "liberation studies" - Propaganda.

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States, companies, governments, whatever is all made of people.
I'd rather be working for the people around me than some fat cat living in a mansion.
Capitalism is worse than most socialist regimes, and most dont have equal pay.

People call socialists "entitled" but what entitles you to your inheritance?