So back in January, some town in New York called Islamberg because some guys tried to shoot it up or something.
I've never heard of this place before so I've pretty much got an open mind. Is it some terrorist-training camp, Rotherham-tier rape gang hub, or just a regular town?
Redpill me here Jow Forums, I want to know about... Islamberg
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No training camp. It’s Sufi Muslims who are pretty much the hippies of Islam. If it was a Wahabbi Muslim town then maybe you would have a training camp, but then they wouldn’t give it a name like Islamberg.
“Islamberg was settled by a group of mostly black Muslim families in the 1980s,[2] who sought to escape the troubles of New York City.[3] The group was inspired by Sufi Cleric Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani and sought a more "peaceful and holy Muslim life".[4][5] Islamberg has a population of about 200,[2] along with its own grocery store, bookstore, and school.[3] The community serves as the headquarters of Muslims of America, which seeks to promote an understanding of Islam.[6]”
>It’s Sufi Muslims who are pretty much the hippies of Islam
How so?
There is another town in South Carolina called Holy Islamville, part of the same organisation of Islamberg. It’s probably like a Muslim version of the Amish, they just want follow their religion in a small town and grow fresh vegetables. If you are looking for terrorists OP, look for Saudi funded or Wahabbi mosques. Sufi Muslims are literally the most peaceful and harmless Muslims, just a bunch of hippies who drink coffee to dance and pray all night.
>just a bunch of hippies who drink coffee to dance and pray all night.
I thought dancing was considered haram?
>There is another town in South Carolina called Holy Islamville, part of the same organisation of Islamberg. It’s probably like a Muslim version of the Amish, they just want follow their religion in a small town and grow fresh vegetables.
How many of these communities are there?
They take religious texts less literally, and are more spiritual and mystical rather than just following the standard prayer practices and traditions. The most famous example are the whirling dervishes of Turkey who spin around in circles. They do this dance to reach a state of ecstasy (from blood rushing to their head) because they believe it brings them closer to happiness and God. Harmless people. Another famous Sufi is Rumi, who wrote poetry.
>and are more spiritual and mystical
How are Wahabbists and the like less spiritual? Is it that they're fixated on the idea of establishing the caliphate on Earth?
user the Muslim World is huge, there is not one version of Islam that everyone follows, just like you have Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestant etc for Christians. Some Muslims interpret rules in different ways than other groups. So some are stricter than others. If you look at Malaysia and Indonesia, both Muslim majority countries and pretty much the same race, you can easily buy alcohol and drink as a Muslim in Indonesia but in Malaysia you could get arrested by Sharia Police for doing so.
No idea, but wouldn’t be surprised if there were more as the US is huge. Let people start a town and practice their religion in peace and away from others, it’s the American dream. Literally why the Pilgrims went there in the first place.
>If it was a Wahabbi Muslim town then maybe you would have a training camp, but then they wouldn’t give it a name like Islamberg.
What kind of name would it have?
Most of them use various forms of the Neoplatonic system to understand the divinity of islamic theology. This system is notorious for promoting passive behavior because it is pantheistic and sees love for everything and everyone as the path of coming back to the divine principle, in this case equated with alla. It is a somewhat natural combination with teastern predisposition for philosophizing about love. Sufi literature is interesting, regardless of the reader's polycentric or monistic leanings but be careful on getting too invested in islamic stuff.
>it is pantheistic and sees love for everything and everyone as the path of coming back to the divine principle
Ah, so literally like hippies.
Do Sufists endorse any kind of violence or are they strictly pacifists?
>If you look at Malaysia and Indonesia, both Muslim majority countries and pretty much the same race, you can easily buy alcohol and drink as a Muslim in Indonesia but in Malaysia you could get arrested by Sharia Police for doing so.
My understanding was that Indonesia was a secular country whereas Malaysia still retained this psuedo-theocracy/ethnic segregation leftover from the British.
Ok time for a history lesson, during WWI the Ottoman Empire (Turks) controlled Mecca and most of the Middle East and were considered the caliphate of the time. The British wanted control of some of the Middle East so made a deal with the Saud family who were quite powerful at the time. They would give them control of Mecca and their own kingdom if they helped the British fight against the Ottoman Empire. So at the end of WW1 the Ottoman Empire was disbanded and the British got some of their former territories and allowed the Saud family to start a Kingdom, which is now Saudi Arabia. The royal family which rules Saudi Arabia now have only been around since the creation of that kingdom (since 1932) and they followed Wahhabi (Salafi) Islam.
Wahhabi (Salafi) Islam is very strict, ultra conservative, fundamentalist and puritanical, meaning they often take holy texts literally and do not apply any context or attempt to make it fit with modern times. Since their rise to power the Saud family have been sending Wahhabi (Salafi) missionaries around the world and funding Wahhabi (Salafi) mosques as a way of influencing the world into following their doctrine and ideology. So when you see women wearing full face veil or radical preachers, it is most likely a Saudi funded Wahhabi (Salafi) mosque. They want the world to be like Saudi Arabia and may use force to get it, whereas other Muslims are happy with the way things are.
You know a lot more than many others then. Yes in Malaysia Islam is seen as “Malay”, so they sometimes go a bit overboard by being very visibly pious and religious as a form of nationalism and ethnic supremacy. Not to say Indonesia doesn’t have its problems with radical Islamism but in Indonesia it’s more of a clear direct connection with Saudi and Wahhabism/Salafism.
Terrorist training camp. Some guy who I don't remember the name of made a documentary about it and went on Alex jones
>Wahhabi (Salafi) Islam is very strict, ultra conservative, fundamentalist and puritanical, meaning they often take holy texts literally and do not apply any context or attempt to make it fit with modern times. Since their rise to power the Saud family have been sending Wahhabi (Salafi) missionaries around the world and funding Wahhabi (Salafi) mosques as a way of influencing the world into following their doctrine and ideology.
So how come Wahhabist groups like Al Qaeda are bent on overthrowing the Saudi government? Is it just another example of purity spiraling (i.e. fighting because they regard them as not being extreme enough)
>You know a lot more than many others then.
Thanks, I took a class on Southeast Asian politics four or five years ago and still remembered that.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Sharia law in Malaysia applies to Malays and that non-Malay minorities are semi-exempt from it.
Don't know about today but historically they laid low. There always was a dangerous thing for sufis to be active in the world around. A sufi's weird beliefs would be just talking points with some muslims and with the more radical muslims they would be undeniable proofs that the he is a mushrik (Pagan), a sure way to get the qadi (judge) to stone him to death. That is why they've developed a rather exaggerated and mystical behavior on one hand because it made the other muslim sects see them as rather magical or positively possesed and they ignored the various strands of non-islamic thought in their writings (not only Neoplatonic but also Zoroastrian and Buddhist, like the cleansing of fire or cessation of the ego, etc.). On the other hand, they've isolated themselves, becoming wanderers or scholars at very elect and small islamic schools. So historically they were pacifistic, yes, but with the globalization of belief today one can't possibly know what kind of sufism is practiced by some niggers in SC or NY. Could very well be getting radicalized although they would cease to be sufis then.
>A sufi's weird beliefs would be just talking points with some muslims and with the more radical muslims they would be undeniable proofs that the he is a mushrik (Pagan), a sure way to get the qadi (judge) to stone him to death.
I take it Sufis have been historically repressed/regarded with suspicion by other Muslims? Has their treatment improved since the Ottoman Empire fell, gotten worse, or remained the same?
you are talking to 15 year old Americans man do not expect them to understand or even remember 1/10th of this info by this time tomorrow
Was it Jon Ritzheimer by any chance?
>15 year old Americans man
You're off by about 11 years leaf
They do it to draw the western worlds ire on fundamentalist Muslims thus getting the U.S. to fight them and draw us into their clusterfuck nonsense
My understanding was their conflict with America prior to September 11th, stemmed partially from US support for Israel, but mainly from US support for Saudi Arabia. After all, virtually attacks on Americans prior to 2001 were against US soldiers in Saudi Arabia.
No violence, they are literally Muslim hippies
You are correct, it’s either just politics (different factions fighting for control) or a case of believing the Kingdom does not go far enough with their public beheadings and amputations.
You are also correct that Sharia Law in Malaysia does not apply to non-Muslims. They are 100% excempt from it.
They thrived during the Ottoman era, since then there has been a decline in Sufism worldwide, mainly due to the increase in Wahhabism/Salafism. Indonesia and Malaysia used to have a big Sufi tradition, with shrines to saints being venerated but the Wahabbis/Salafis want to put an end to that practice and other practices that aren’t in line with theirs.
They are smarter than you though.
user, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were allies of the US against the Soviet Union. Any conflict between them is most likely personal rather than anything really ideological. Same with G W Bush and Saddam. Saddam was the US’s buddy because he attacked Iran, but then years later he is public enemy number 1. It’s all politics.
>So how come Wahabbist groups like Al Qaeda are bent on overthrowing the Saudi government? Is it just another example of purity spiraling (i.e. fighting because they regard them as not being extreme enough)
Just going to barge in and say that yes, this is the case. The rulling wahabbis for example destroy a huge amount of early islamic artefacts and memorials (historical stuff from the 7th century too), especially now in the 21st century, because they believe this distracts from their pure faith but at the same time they are the same ones who build huge hotels with fitness centers and spas. The opposition to them argue that this is not wahabbi behavior at all and use this to get support in the power struggle.
en.wikipedia.org
They were, similar situation and tactics to that of the Zoroastrians so comparative points can be made. There are some academic works on the subject, not much on the internet though.
en.wikipedia.org
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They lay low today as well. Also, a lot of non muslims use sufism too as an umbrella term to hide their beliefs in those areas of the world.
>You are also correct that Sharia Law in Malaysia does not apply to non-Muslims. They are 100% excempt from it.
I take it this creates issues since they essentially need dual court systems for dealing with Muslims and non-Muslims?
If rebellious young Muslims want "forbidden fruit" such as alcohol or pork, do they often obtain it from their non-Muslim counterparts?
Yes that’s a good point, the hypocrisy of the House of Saud. Look at Mecca today, a giant monstrosity of a hotel/shopping mall literally next door to the holiest site in all of Islam. They claim to be the most pious and orthodox yet built this eyesore and ruined the holy city. It’s like Las Vegas now.
Yea, two court systems. Ironically makes it better to be a non Muslim criminal than a Muslim one.
Oh yea definitely. Go to the Chinaman shop if you want pork or alcohol. But in Indonesia you don’t have this problem unless you are in rural areas.
>The rulling wahabbis for example destroy a huge amount of early islamic artefacts and memorials (historical stuff from the 7th century too), especially now in the 21st century, because they believe this distracts from their pure faith but at the same time they are the same ones who build huge hotels with fitness centers and spas.
Holy shit. that's terrible. That'd be like the Catholic Church leveling Jesus' birthplace to put up a cathedral there or something.
Are there any Wahabbis who oppose this as a destruction of their history, or are they largely on board with it?
>Look at Mecca today, a giant monstrosity of a hotel/shopping mall literally next door to the holiest site in all of Islam.
Literally
>But in Indonesia you don’t have this problem unless you are in rural areas.
Does this stem from the fact that Indonesia won its independence after an armed revolution against the Netherlands went went through multiple dictatorships (both pro-Western and pro-Soviet) as well as conflict in East Timor, whereas the Malaysia has basically been government by the same political system that was in place when the British withdrew in the 1950s?
As far as I know they are largely on board, but it’s non-Wahhabi/Salafi Muslims from around the world who are pissed off about it. Like imagine if someone bulldozed the church with the shroud of Turin and built a public toilet? That’s what they did with Muhammad’s first wife’s house.
time.com
You might find this interesting:
“Famously, the Kaaba now stands in the shade of one of the world’s tallest buildings, the Mecca Royal Clock Tower, part of a complex built by the Bin Laden Group, boasting a 5-story shopping mall, luxury hotels and a parking garage.”
whats with all the cranes everywhere?
I would say that you are spot on here It’s more that the demographics in Malaysia are around 70% Malay and other native ethnic groups (not Chinese or Indian) so they are more worried about being replaced by foreigners so feel like they have to flex their Malay heritage (which includes Islam).
In Indonesia there isn’t this problem so people are generally more relaxed about religion unless it’s election season or in rural areas which are more religious (like everywhere else in the world).
Also, what's up with Ritzheimer? Guy's a crossbreed of a rabid stormfag and a Neocon.
>According to The Independent, the House of Mawalid where Muhammad is said to have been born is about to be replaced by a huge royal palace, as a part of a multibillion-pound construction project in Mecca which has resulted in the destruction of hundreds of historic monuments.
>destroying the birthplace of the founder of your state religion
How do they get away with this? Defacing a Quran is enough to stir people up into rioting, why does destroying the Islamic equivalent of Bethlehem not stir up the same outrage?
Because they control Mecca, no country wants to risk Saudi Arabia banning citizens from their country from going on Hajj to Mecca. Of course citizens are outraged but what kind of oil rich billionaire monarch cares what average citizens think?
But now you can see why ISIS were so hell bent on destroying ancient monuments. They learnt it from the Saudis. The House of Saud don’t want any trace of Islam to be left in history apart from Wahhabism/Salafism, so that means destroying history so the only thing left is what they have constructed.
Probably building new shopping malls over holy sites
>So how come Wahhabist groups like Al Qaeda are bent on overthrowing the Saudi government? Is it just another example of purity spiraling (i.e. fighting because they regard them as not being extreme enough)
They're is a very complex balance of power that exists in Saudi Arabia. Extremely religious (Whabbi) clerics allow the monarchy exist, because the monarchy allows them to use the government apparatus to uphold their values and spread their values around the world.
Hypocritical, but its a balance that they both rely on.
Taliban - Al Qaeda were groups that hoped to break this status quo in order to spread their doctrine without the "hypocrisy".
Construction most likely.
That makes sense (in a twisted sort of way).
Either way, to bring back to your original post, Islamberg is not these people
Is Sufism more heavily practiced by black Muslims? A lot of the articles on it go out of the way to mention it.
It’s quite popular in West Africa. A way of simplifying Sufism is that it combines Islam with local traditions, which is why more orthodox and puritanical sects like Wahhabism/Salafism are against it.
However in the US it’s hard to say if Black Muslims are also Sufi, because you have groups like the Nation of Islam which some Muslims do not consider real Islam and more of a cult. (Look up their beliefs and you will see why)
As someone in the U.S. the only real Sufis I see is going college kids you'd expect to be hippies and grandpas who followed it in the old country.
Are they Balkan grandpas?
Kinda, also Eastern European and Levantine Arabs.
wahhabis are against any kind of "idolatry", including visiting historical places of islam.
but this makes outrage in other islamic schools indeed (shias are furious for example)
Has anyone ever met a hippie who converted to Sufism?
I've met hippies of just about every religion except Islam (a lot more of them are Christian than I previously thought).
All the ones I knew were born to Muslim Families.
When I was going to a Sufi mosque in London there was this white convert who kept on changing his Muslim name. The other people would ask him “What name do we call you this week?”
But apart from that no I haven’t met any hippies who have become Sufi. But I expect most of them probably do it just so they can bang a drum and smoke weed while wearing funny hats. It’s quite a small and niche sect of Islam nowadays that you probably wouldn’t meet a lot of real Sufi’s in the West that much.
The uk might be the most cucked country there is
You lived in the UK?
>The uk might be the most cucked country there is
>Canada exists
Of course, I’m half English. But the majority of Sufis I’ve met irl are Sufi because of their families. They are quite chill people, mostly into artsy stuff. Here in Singapore there is a Sufi bookstore that does a lot of creative events and talks etc. Their general outlook on life is just seeking knowledge from every source instead of just from within Muslim tradition and customs.