Waco: Assault on the second amendment?

Carson Perez
Carson Perez

I recently did some research into the Waco massacre, which I initially thought was just an attack on a cult.
Now I’m not so sure.
Thoughts?

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=7iWqfUSKT0c
youtube.com/watch?v=xsDBAixXJdM
sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2018/01/27/family-of-rancher-killed-in-bundy-standoff-sues-the-us-oregon-police/
armsandthelaw.com/
documentingreality.com/forum/f240/waco-autopsy-photographs-february-1993-a-15113/
youtube.com/watch?v=rDbPlUvMFKc&

Kayden Robinson
Kayden Robinson

What happened there?

Mason Russell
Mason Russell

FBI murdered a bunch of kids.

Tyler Brooks
Tyler Brooks

Federa government burned down a religious compound, and slaughtered 82 people

Tyler Cruz
Tyler Cruz

Some US citizens thought they had constitutional rights that had higher priority than the Yankee government. The Yankee government disagreed.

Matthew Hill
Matthew Hill

Both of these

Jackson Johnson
Jackson Johnson

Tfw government bad

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Xavier Hill
Xavier Hill

SUMMARY

A sect of the Seventh Day Adventists broke off.
David Koresh molded this branch into a cult.
ATF suspected they were stockpiling illegal weapons.
Koresh offered to let the ATF inspect their paperwork but the ATF declined.
ATF obtained search and arrest warrants.
ATF claimed Koresh was running a meth lab - they weren't.
Branch Davidians learned about the raid - Koresh said he intended to talk with the ATF.
ATF decided to go through with the raid anyway as planned.

What happens next is up for debate.
ATF says Branch Davidians shot first
Branch Davidians say ATF shot first

Branch Davidians called emergency services within a minute of the shooting beginning to ask them to stop shooting.
2 hours of shooting went by.
Local sheriff called a ceasefire - though the ATF readily admitted they were for the ceasefire cause they were running low on ammo.
Branch Davidians let the ATF get the dead/wounded.
6 hours later ATF breaks the ceasefire.

FBI comes in now.
FBI cuts all Branch Davidian contact to outside world.
Some negotiation happens and the Davidians let some children out.
FBI let Branch Davidians make a video but decided not to release it to the public because it would garner them sympathy.
FBI started fucking with them more.
FBI starts driving Bradleys and M728s around, playing music/slaughterhouse sounds all through the night.
FBI cut all water and power.
Koresh ordered more Davidians to leave - they did and were arrested.
Janet Reno and Clinton okay'd the siege.
FBI decides to blow holes in the wall and pump in tear gas.
Sometime FBI fire pyrotechnic rounds despite instructions not to.
Fires started and everyone remaining died.

A month later the site was bulldozed destroying any remaining evidence.

Logan Martin
Logan Martin

ON GUNS:

Possession of an automatic firearm is not inherently illegal. Especially if one possesses an FFL or the appropriate tax stamps. Now the often argument falls upon whether or not they were using m16 Sears to be combined with ar15 lowers. This would be illegal except for two things:

The branch Davidians possesses a FFL and ran a gun store out of the compound called the mag bag.

And two, you would have to prove ill intent given that they had a FFL. Ie. That the FFL holder was not intending to sell them to government officers for the purpose of their duties nor that he possessed them for personal use such as luxury/runnimg a gun range.

Koresh swore the paperwork was done legally. He invited the ATF in to inspect both the guns and the papers. They refused. They also conveniently staged the siege while the FFL holder was out of state selling guns at a gun show.

Gabriel Peterson
Gabriel Peterson

MORE GUNS

Branch Davidians did not have mines - court documents talking of mines were speculating of mines and concealed bunkers and planned accordingly

Branch Davidians did not have .50 cal rifles

This is what they had:

61 M16 type
2 M16 type lowers
61 AK 47 type
34 AR15 type
2 AR15 type lowers
13 Shotguns, 12 gauge
11 FN FAL types
10 Ruger Mini-14
7 35mm Flare guns
6 .30 M1 carbines
5 M11/9
5 M14
3 Galil
2 HK SP89
1 HK MP5
1 Air rifle
1 Sten
23 Beretta pistols
13 Glock pistols
8 assorted revolvers
6 Safari Arms pistols
5 Sig Sauer pistols
5 Walther pistols
2 Taurus pistols

The Branch Davidians did not have any M82s. The only evidence ever presented of .50 cal was hearsay provided by 2 people: a neighbour who said he heard a big gun and assumed .50 cal, and a former Branch Davidian who was kicked out. These claims were never confirmed despite having an FBI undercover agent in the facility who frequently shot with the Davidians and Koresh. So these claims were unsubstantiated.

Of the above guns, only 46 were automatic, but as noted before, automatic =/= illegal.

Secondly, of explosives, they had all of 4 live M-21 practice grenades. That is it. And once again, owning explosives is not inherently illegal.

This is completely ignoring the fact that the ATF refused to make any attempts to de-escalate the situation, refused to make any arrests when available, refused cooperation by the Branch Davidians, etc. ad nauseum.

Nathaniel Clark
Nathaniel Clark

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Noah Torres
Noah Torres

What started the whole fiasco was a postal worker was delivering packages to the compound and the damaged box contained gunpowder. The shithead mailman contacted the ATF, even though there weren't any laws being broken. Then the ATF and FBI started surveillance on the compound and found out they're heavily armed. Government agencies didn't take kindly to that.

Jeremiah Hernandez
Jeremiah Hernandez

The list of guns I posted was from the Texas Rangers and FBI's subsequent investigation into the cult. It includes all guns found at the compound. There are no .50 cals on that list. The reports of the .50 cals came from the ATF and the Brady Campaign.

Likewise, when you look at the same report in regards to explosives, it is largely unlikely that the ATF agents were injured by grenades. There was a significant lack of materials to manufacture live grenades, and the only explosives used during the entirety of the siege, came from the ATF and FBI.

ON LEGAL GUNS

Considering that the guns were legally under the name of Paul Fatta, a Davidian who possessed an FFL level 7 and ran a gun store out of the compound, the 1986 FOPA doesn't really matter as they was not an infraction. Legally Fatta may possess, manufacture and modify automatic weapons for the purposes of collection, sale to law enforcement/military, or personal use for demos etc. This isn't even including any that would have been NFA legal automatics - which any of them could arguably own. Just the modified here.

Now ignoring that a more important thing wasn't even the possession. The warrant was never issued for possession of an illegal firearm. The warrant was issued for "conspiracy to possess illegal firearms". While they had a member that could legally own said illegal firearms.

It is also worth note, that the Branch Davidians, when first informed of the interest in their firearms, sought to allow the ATF to inspect not only the firearms they suspected were illegal, but also the paperwork which would show any circumstances that would right the issue - that is FFL papers/NFA tax stamps etc.

Charles Wood
Charles Wood

ON PAUL FATTA

Paul Fatta ran a gun store out of the compound. It was no secret that he sold to law enforcement or military. In fact, the gun store was responsible for a large portion of the group's funding for their lifestyle. Hell, he had automatics with him when the raid went down as he was selling guns in another state at a gun show.

But more importantly, if an automatic is not illegally modified - all you need is a tax stamp and anyone could own it - which basically means you just need your paperwork. Given that there was 80 or so Branch Davidians (There were 132 but I am taking into account women and children as unlikely to own a firearm) at Waco, that would not even be remotely out of the question for there to be NFA tax stamps among the group. Especially since the group was pro gun and had members who could fill out the paperwork. This paperwork was cited as evidence the group did nothing wrong, yet the ATF refused to look at it. Any evidence of this paperwork was destroyed when the compound caught fire along with various other files they maintained on religion, taxes etc.

Fatta did not need to have a "use" for the collection. And the modifications were not illegal so long as he was registered as the owner.

Lets assume they are a cult with neo-apocalyptic outlooks. You are suggesting that it is alright - or positive - for the federal government to violate the rights not only of the group but of the individual when there is no evidence of illegal wrongdoings, no trial nor allowance to provide evidence against any allegations let alone suspected allegations, and ultimately condemn the citizens to death based upon premises that are shaky at best.

Having doomsday idealism is not inherently illegal nor does it inherently mean the individual or group is dangerous to themselves or society at large. This was not even a considered factor in the warrants.

Remember, the entirety of this boils down to "conspiracy to possess an illegal firearm".

Elijah Turner
Elijah Turner

To assume the Branch Davidians shot first is presumptuous, especially considering at the time they had invited ATF in to the compound in regards to various claims such as a meth lab/illegal weapons. Furthermore, considering the ceasefire during the siege, the Branch Davidians also showed considerable empathy, given that after the ceasefire was called they allowed the ATF to remove the dead and wounded from inside the compound and its surrounding grounds despite having the advantage of ammunition and fortification. Given the cults reputation with nearby locals, it would be rather out of character for them for them to be non-compliant with a search warrant.

Furthermore, Authorities acknowledge they started shooting the dogs first.

What happens next depends on who you side with.
ATF says they attempted to breach and were met with Branch Davidian gunfire
Branch Davidians claim ATF fired first

If you look at the evidence, what you see is that:

One ATF agent admittedly shot himself on accident climbing a ladder
He was removed without any shots being fired at him despite being in full view of windows/no cover
The ATF admitted to shooting the dogs first
The church's front door had damage showing exits on the interior (meaning it was shot through from outside)

So in all likelihood, ATF shot first. This would be consistent with the Branch Davidian's statement.

Logan Myers
Logan Myers

Elaboration

Well you have to consider what was going on politically and societally at the time of Waco. FOPA was introduced in 1986, the War on Drugs is declared (which figured into this as the ATF told the Feds that the Branch Davidians were running a meth lab in order to gain additional resources), Ruby Ridge had happened, the ATF had just had their shit taken to the cleaners in congressional hearing for generating cases by fucking over citizens, the militia movement is gaining popularity as the government keeps fucking up, etc.

iirc the ATF was also in a position where they were gonna lose a bunch of funding as well.

So basically it came time that they needed an event to flex their muscles and come off the victor. I mean there are other conspiracies out there - but the most likely cause is that the ATF is a bunch of idiots. For example:

FBI try to negotiate
FBI promise no change in electricity/water access etc.
ATF go and cut the lines etc.

Every time the FBI tried to make an effort the ATF fucked it up.

Ryan Murphy
Ryan Murphy

MOLESTATION

The problem with the molestation charges comes with how they were gained. As per the report sent to the Deputy Attorney General:

Evidence #1 was an ATF affidavit containing hearsay an ATF agent gained from a former cult member

Evidence #2 was notes from an interview a CPS made when talking to a girl who's family was kicked out of the cult

Evidence #3 was hearsay from a former cult member

Evidence #4 was hearsay from a former cult member (related to evidence 3 member)

Evidence #5 is interesting - it was from the shrink who interviewed the kids when they were released - he said from what he gained, none of the kids were abused but may have been present when sexual things were talked about

Evidence #6 was from the FBI on the phone with a branch davidian - the FBI try to pressure the davidian into saying he was fucking 12 yr olds, but the davidian believed the youngest he fucked was a 14 yr old - said Davidian married a kid and claimed Koresh married them to cover his abuse

Evidence #7 was from a psychiatrist and he said that there was no way to resolve the situation at all and that Koresh was fucking kids - this is the only psychiatrist out of 8 who were consulted that suggested Koresh was fucking kids.

The conclusion at the end of the report is that there was no direct evidence establishing sexual abuse allegations, however it noted that there were circumstantial indications and the children were in a deteriorating living environment and the possibility of abuse would increase as the siege continued.

The vast majority of the evidence came from former cult members - the same members that false claimed Koresh had machine guns, .50 cal or larger weapons etc.

So realistically, what it would at least get is a warrant for Koresh, and the ability to allow CPS into the compound to do their own investigation. However that course of action was chosen against and a siege was carried out instead.

Angel Lopez
Angel Lopez

Other random facts:

youtube.com/watch?v=7iWqfUSKT0c
supposed audio blasted at the Branch Davidians

ATF still went ahead with the assault after discovering that the Branch Davidians knew they were coming
their assault plan was conceptualized around making it to the door before the Davidians knew they were coming and had a chance to arm

Tax fraud was never proven
Child abuse was never proven
one of the people who said Koresh fucked a kid, was married to said kid, and said Koresh married them to cover up his escapades
Welfare fraud was never proven
Drug manufacturing was never proven
one could even argue against it was considered as Koresh had called the government to clean up a meth lab ran by the original leader Roden

Lon Horiuchi, of Ruby Ridge fame, was present at the Waco siege
Texas rangers alleged that he fired the first shots on the final day

John Phillips
John Phillips

I don’t remember reading about moleststion

Matthew Rodriguez
Matthew Rodriguez

"Long before the fire, the Davidians were discussing the evidence contained in the doors. During the siege, in a phone conversation with the FBI, Steve Schneider, one of Koresh's main confidants, told FBI agents that 'the evidence from the front door will clearly show how many bullets and what happened'." Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who went inside Mount Carmel during the siege, testified at the trial that protruding metal on the inside of the right-hand entry door made it clear that the bullet holes were made by incoming rounds. DeGuerin also testified that only the right-hand entry door had bullet holes, while the left-hand entry door was intact. The government presented the left-hand entry door at the trial, claiming that the right-hand entry door had been lost. The left-hand door contained numerous bullet holes made by both outgoing and incoming rounds. Texas Trooper Sgt. David Keys testified that he witnessed two men loading what could have been the missing door into a U-Haul van shortly after the siege had ended, but he did not see the object itself. Michael Caddell, the lead attorney for the Branch Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit explained, "The fact that the left-hand door is in the condition it's in tells you that the right-hand door was not consumed by the fire. It was lost on purpose by somebody." Caddell offered no evidence to support this allegation, which has never been proved. However, fire investigators stated that it was "extremely unlikely" that the steel right door could have suffered damage in the fire much greater than did the steel left door, and both doors would have been found together. The right door remains missing, and the entire site was under close supervision by law enforcement officials until the debris—including both doors—had been removed.[90]

Juan Thomas
Juan Thomas

They also did shit like this - this is a Devtech 25 flashbang found at the point of origin of the 2nd fire. They used quite a bit more of these then they let on to.

Yup. CS gas is what they usually say they use. CS itself is a powder, that is mixed with methyline chloride (otherwise known as dichloromethane or DCM), which is important as it produces flammable vapours. A volume of 13% to 25% of DCM at 25*C (or 77*F) and atmospheric pressure can ignite easily.

Austin Myers
Austin Myers

Reminder that Tim McVeigh did nothing wrong.

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Leo Rogers
Leo Rogers

m278s and Bradley's
They gained access through the ATF filing a request due to the War on Drugs legislation that allows the FBI/ATF/anyone involved in an operation to request equipment, vehicles and training that is afforded to the military.

In essence its a way to deploy military equipment against civilians bypassing the legal structure preventing the use of the military against the civilians

Charles Myers
Charles Myers

Wolverines remember Waco!

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Luke Phillips
Luke Phillips

prepare

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Jonathan Morales
Jonathan Morales

Have the rumors of the FBI playing slaughterhouse noises ever been confirmed?

Nicholas Ward
Nicholas Ward

Yeah, it's admitted in that after action report iirc. But that is less of an issue compared to all other factors.

Ayden Green
Ayden Green

Keep digging.. it's darker than you think.

Hillary Clinton made Vincent Foster give the order to gas the bunker where the children were.

Liam Kelly
Liam Kelly

just an attack on a cult
mormons and scientology and prosperity gospels are left untouched

I bet you also think that the aether doesnt exist because the government tells you so.

Oliver Sanchez
Oliver Sanchez

So I came into this wondering if this was justified, because it was used against a violent cult.
But considering they didn’t resist as much as I previously thought, were they really that violent of a cult?

Isaac Reyes
Isaac Reyes

Geez man, one red pill at a time!

Brandon Ortiz
Brandon Ortiz

Shits fucked up bro. Freedom has always been a lie.

Adam Cox
Adam Cox

David Koresh molded this branch into a cult.
ATF suspected they were stockpiling illegal weapons.
in-between these two was a series of articles in the newspaper making all the claims

Parker Gray
Parker Gray

Pretty sick shit user.

Jeremiah Reed
Jeremiah Reed

Wait they gassed the kids for real?

David Powell
David Powell

I remember watching this live on Chanel 1 news with Anderson Cooper when I was in HS. It was this that woke me up at 14, I watched them blast on the loud speaker how they weren't attacking as they drove the tank into a building full of kids. I watched Cooper & FBI guys pose with the burnt skulls of the children on a humvee as if it was a good thing. I watched it live and it was nothing but a massacre. Few years later I found Alex Jones and it's been a wild 25 years since.

Jaxon Evans
Jaxon Evans

Yes

David Williams
David Williams

Yes they did. With CS gas. The kids went down below. Ultimately died of suffocation due to smoke inhalation or burning.

Levi Nguyen
Levi Nguyen

But that is less of an issue compared to all other factors.
Not really. You're not allowed to enjoy killing your own civilians. If you want to be gleeful in a massacre join the army. Being a protector of the peace is a different role.

Tyler Stewart
Tyler Stewart

Alex Jones

Eli Perez
Eli Perez

Yea Alex Jones faggot, he's been right more than he has been wrong & he told the fucking truth about Waco. Fuck off with your hurrdurr MSM alex Jones faggotry

Ayden Cruz
Ayden Cruz

There are some photos in the archives of the doors/grenades/burned kids.

Elijah Barnes
Elijah Barnes

Remember when the UPS driver said that a box of grenades had busted open & a bunch fell out all over the truck (cause that totally happens), which then set into motion the justification for the raid?

Bentley Thomas
Bentley Thomas

So like
A false flag or something?

Landon Howard
Landon Howard

Yea, I've seen them...I've had dreams about Waco since I was 14. Was a genuinely traumatic thing to watch and almost no one was honest about it in the media at the time. You could watch it live and they would tell you something different was happening to what you were looking at. Truly the most Orwellian moment of my youth.

William Rogers
William Rogers

/thread

Cooper Young
Cooper Young

ATF was about to be disbanded and it powers given to FBI.
They set up an assault on a weird church to coincide with their bosses meeting with Congress to try and keep their jobs. It was called Operation Showtime.
Warrant was issued because Church had a machine gun. Failed to tell the judge it was registered and the owner was a firearms dealer.
Went from bad to worse. Tanks used against civilians, machine guns used to keep the in the burning building, all the adult survivors jailed.
Ended with a massive cover up by Robert Meuller, including the killing of the inventor of thermal imaging the day before he would testify against the FBI.

Owen Jenkins
Owen Jenkins

Unironically, we ought to just abolish the ATF and repeal the NFA.

Josiah Scott
Josiah Scott

Dunno, after the Bundy murder by the FBI i feel they should be abolished too.

Luis Long
Luis Long

ATF says Branch Davidians shot first
Branch Davidians say ATF shot first

If you watch the raid video ATF inside the building shot ATF on the roof of the building.
ATF claims about being fired on first through the door could not be verified because they removed and hid the door until after the investigation was over.

Also the kids were all killed in a safe room by lethal levels of FBI deployed CS gas that caused their bodies to spasm so hard that bones broke.

Nathan Ward
Nathan Ward

bot / distraction / data collecting thread
sage
bot / distraction / data collecting thread
sage
bot / distraction / data collecting thread
sage
bot / distraction / data collecting thread
sage

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Joseph Roberts
Joseph Roberts

But like
Bundy was actually a serial murderer

Zachary Johnson
Zachary Johnson

not sure this will embed but
youtube.com/watch?v=xsDBAixXJdM

Liam Wilson
Liam Wilson

Sry, Finicum

Julian Cook
Julian Cook

More like they needed cause so a package full of "grenades" "accidentally" came open.

False intelligence happens all the fucking time to justify what the pigs or war mongers want. Trump & Russia, Iraq's WMDs, etc.

William Reyes
William Reyes

I pulled the image of google, so don’t blame me for the file name

Eli Lopez
Eli Lopez

The militia militant guy?

William Foster
William Foster

/Thread

Jayden Walker
Jayden Walker

No the Rancher
sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2018/01/27/family-of-rancher-killed-in-bundy-standoff-sues-the-us-oregon-police/

Justin Peterson
Justin Peterson

I don't know much, but David Koresh's life seemed fucked up from the start.

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Gabriel Flores
Gabriel Flores

It was a shit test that America failed.

Samuel Jenkins
Samuel Jenkins

A gun part they had shipped to them in the mail but it "accidently" fell out in the shipping department, turns out it was a full auto/hellfire trigger which is completely legal to own. So they decided it was right to raid the entire compound, they burn kids alive and there are photos of the burned kids bodies if you want to see. Then they make up a story saying that they were pedophiles to make normies feel all better about it and to justify burning kids alive.

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Anthony Wilson
Anthony Wilson

We should just stick to local police.
How the fuck does this happen?

Parker Gutierrez
Parker Gutierrez

Cooper is the last of the Vanderbuilts, CIA project Mockingbird, and born into an illuminati family.

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Liam Sanchez
Liam Sanchez

Pics of the kids?

Isaac Ross
Isaac Ross

On 9/11 a nigger on NBC (IIRC) stated that the towers falling was why they had to ban .50 caliber rifles.
He hadn't received his new set of talking points.

Brandon Cook
Brandon Cook

No doubt, shits gotten out of hand.
Yea after i watched that live it lead to 1000s of hours of research. He was one of the people I studied, he was so young back then. I genuinely hope a group of milita men kill him for his lies on air

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Dominic Watson
Dominic Watson

Doom Paul had it right. Abolish the Fed. The Federal Govt. that is.

Dave Hardy was a federal attorney at the time. He spent decades working on firearms rights, including pushing FOPA through. FOPA was a massive win for gun rights, to the point that closing the machine gun registry was tacked on as a poison pill, but it still passed.
He also spent years research Waco and had input into both the documentaries.
His site: armsandthelaw.com/ is great for the Waco archives and for a decade of reasoned explanation of firearms law and politics.

Isaiah Bell
Isaiah Bell

What happened there?
The ATF based out of OK city killed Timothy McVeigh's family and friends.

Logan Thompson
Logan Thompson

Crazy idea:
The entire Waco massacre was just an op to get people to more easily give in to gun control measures, because
“Muh ebil militia!!”

Aaron Lopez
Aaron Lopez

didn't Timothy McVeigh carry out his bombing because of what the feds did at waco?

Thomas Edwards
Thomas Edwards

yup

Joseph Turner
Joseph Turner

here's some
documentingreality.com/forum/f240/waco-autopsy-photographs-february-1993-a-15113/

John Gray
John Gray

Black Lives Matter was created the week that the Bureau of Land Management was forced to stand down against an unorganized militia. They needed to a) Send a message to Republicans that the Dems could also create civilian forces and b) take BLM of the news and search engine results as having anything to do with Nevada.

Kevin Hall
Kevin Hall

Sauce first part is highly plausible knowing america second part is at 9/11 lvl of conspiracy

Zachary Martinez
Zachary Martinez

I find it odd that most people I know have no idea that waco, ruby ridge etc even happened let alone the reasons why it was fucked up

Joshua Price
Joshua Price

Few years later I found Alex Jones and it's been a wild 25 years since.
Congrats boomer, you've been psyopped by kike controlled opposition.

Alex "Zionist" Jones
Alex "It's NEVER the Jews Goy" Jones.
Alex "The Nazis were the most EVIL people ever" Jones
Alex "Buy my products lol" Jones
Alex "Tranny porn" Jones

Jose Roberts
Jose Roberts

Plenty of weirdos out there, a lot seek a purpose in religion. he didn't do what they claim he did and those people did not deserve to die for being isolationist weirdos.
Jow Forums would have no posts if that became wide spread.

Christian Turner
Christian Turner

True.

Lucas Perez
Lucas Perez

This is going to sound dumb as fuck but
Ruby Ridge? What’s that?

Landon Allen
Landon Allen

Alex Jones told the truth about Waco
Told he truth about McVeigh and interviewed FBI whistleblowers
accurately predicted 9/11
was 10 years ahead of the Snowden leaks
No i haven't, your neocon talking points are at best stormfag and at worst uncreative. Neck yourself kike, I know AJ personally and he is infinitely more American & truthful than you are.

Jayden Collins
Jayden Collins

McVeigh was part of a militia group run by a pair of transvestite FBI informants.
The ATF failed to turn up for work on the day of the OKC bombing.
McVeigh did it, but he was a controlled patsy.
The 2nd bomber who they later denied existed? Name was Jose Padilla. Jose Padilla was arrested in Pakistan in 2002 IIRC, placed in solitary in a naval brig and AFAIK, never let out.

Gabriel Lewis
Gabriel Lewis

61 M16 type
2 M16 type lowers
61 AK 47 type
34 AR15 type
2 AR15 type lowers
13 Shotguns, 12 gauge
11 FN FAL types
10 Ruger Mini-14
7 35mm Flare guns
6 .30 M1 carbines
5 M11/9
5 M14
3 Galil
2 HK SP89
1 HK MP5
1 Air rifle
1 Sten
23 Beretta pistols
13 Glock pistols
8 assorted revolvers
6 Safari Arms pistols
5 Sig Sauer pistols
5 Walther pistols
2 Taurus pistols

all those guns when all they needed was SCUBA gear and pro masks and a good courtyard for ventilation.

Chase Turner
Chase Turner

google it. some dude wanted to live in the woods with his family. ATF ended up shooting his wife or some shit

Owen Murphy
Owen Murphy

Its not conspiracy. Pretty sure I found all I know linked from Arms and the Law. The adults had gas masks, so they put the kids in a room in the center of the house as far from the gunfire and tanks as they could. CS killed them, then the fire was ignited to hide the evidence.
The FBI prevent4ed ay fire trucks from entering the property until it had burnt to the ground.
Lon Horuchi claimed that his sniper team didn't fire a shot, but after the fact piles of spent brass ere found in their hide.
The FLIR footage showed machine gun fire from the same location, preventing anyone from leaving the rear of the building.

Jacob Perry
Jacob Perry

He's controlled oppo, but he did speak the truth about anything that didn't implicate Israel.

Brody Diaz
Brody Diaz

Most people get their new from the MSM. It was all memory holed.
Look how quickly Las Vegas was memory holed.

Kevin Phillips
Kevin Phillips

90s ATF time

Ruby Ridge Summary

guy gets mad over land deal with Randy Weaver
judge sides with Weaver and sentences due to pay additional 21k to Weaver
guy writes letters to FBI/Sheriff asserting Weaver was threatening to kill governor/president/pope etc.
guy tells them that Weaver is a member of the Aryan Nations and has a fuckton of guns hidden
FBI/Secret Service/sheriff investigate and interview Weaver and his wife
Weavers deny allegations
Weaver was associated with Kuminick who was alleged to be Aryan Nations
Weaver states that Kuminick wasn't Aryan Nations but that he was Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord
Weaver reiterates that he is not Aryan Nations
Weaver files affidavit stating his personal enemies are trying to bring the fed down on him

In comes ATF to fuck everything up
Kuminick takes Weaver around and eventually introduces him to an ATF informant
Informant claims Weaver wanted to organize a group to fight the zionist occupied government
ATF claims Weaver sold them 2 sawn off shotguns shorter than min barrel length
Weaver claims that's horse shit
ATF tries to blackmail Weaver to become an informant
Weaver refuses
ATF files charges claiming Weaver is a bank robber with criminal convictions previously (this is all false)
Weaver is indicted on charges of making/possessing illegal weapons
Weaver is let out on bail
Court case becomes a fuckery because Weaver is hard to contact due to no phone
Court date is changed and letter is sent to attorney to give to Weaver telling him new date
Probation officer informs Weaver of a new date (but the wrong one)
Judge issues bench warrant
Judge is told of the fuck up in Weaver hearing the wrong date by probation officer
Judge decides not withdraw warrant
US Marshals decide to give Randy until the court day he knew of to appear in court
US Attorney's office calls up grand jury and tries to get the warrant dropped
They forgot evidence to the date fuck up
Grand jury says go get Weaver for jail now

Ethan Stewart
Ethan Stewart

Alex Jones never names the Jew. His boss is a Jew. His wife was a Jew. That's how you know he's controlled opposition. Even Eddie Bravo called him a Zionist to his face and Alex couldn't say anything. You've been psyopped boomer, fuck off and go mow your lawn you geriatric race traitor fuck this is a high IQ board.

Evan Morgan
Evan Morgan

US Marshals decide to treat Weaver as a fugitive
Weaver confused by inconsistent messages from lawyer and government decides to sit tight
Magistrate tells Weaver if he loses court case he will lose his land (leaving wife homeless) and the government will take his children
Weaver believes he won't get a fair trial
Marshals decide to negotiate
Assistant US attorney tells them no more negotiation
US Marshals start surveilance and build a threat profile
US Marshals create a profile basically stating Weaver is a green beret who will shoot on sight and has booby trapped his property
In reality, he's just a guy in a cabin
Media does a flyover and claims he shot at them (he didn't this is confirmed in FBI's after action report) but its used in drawing up rules of engagement

Now comes the fun

US Marshals dressed in camo with night vision and M16s are scouting the property
Marshals' throw rocks at dog kennel
Weaver's son and family friend come out to see what caused the ruckus
They decide to let a dog out and follow it cause they figured it smelt small game
US Marshals bump into Weaver's son and family friend

US Marshals shoot and kill the dog
Weaver's son fires back
Marshals kill Weaver's son
Family friend kills a marshal
Family friend is shot and injured
Everyone retreats

FBI, Idaho national guard, US Marshal's Special Ops all get involved now
Rules of Engagement are drawn up
ROE basically state if anyone has a gun, shoot to kill
Also kill all dogs

Snipers are dispatched before fbi negotiators get there
Sniper shoots Weaver injuring him
Sniper shoots and kills Weaver's wife
FBI Negotiators arrive
FBI Negotiators can't get shit done
Civilian negotiator talks them down and gets Weaver and company to surrender

Robert Jenkins
Robert Jenkins

Randy Weaver was a White Isolationist. He lived in the bush with his family and was broke.
FBI/ATF informant wanted to buy a used shotgun from him, gave him a string and asked him to cut the barrel down to that length first. 1/4 inch below legal.
He realized he had been set up and refused to attend court. They sent a sniper team that shot his son, his dog and his wife while she was feeding her baby.
Lon Horuchi was the sniper. Charged with premeditated murder by the State, the Feds took over the case and released him without trial.
HS Precision employed him as a spokesman for their firearms business and have been boycotted ever after by those who know the story.

Alexander Robinson
Alexander Robinson

Ultimately:
Weaver acquitted of all charges cept missing court date and does 18 months
Family friend acquitted of all charges
Weavers sue the government for 200 million, but settle out of court for 100k for Randy, and 1 mill for each of his 3 daughters
Family friend sues the government and wins 380k
Sniper who killed the Weaver wife was charged with Manslaughter
Feds moved the court case to federal court and got the sniper off due to sovereign immunity

Same sniper was at the Waco siege. The first shots fired on the last day were from the building he was in, and there were three spent cartridges collected from his position however the fed claimed the rounds could have been left by the ATF as they had been there before and that it was impossible to match to said sniper because after the Waco siege he had his rifle rebarrelled.

Dylan Phillips
Dylan Phillips

SO we can’t even just innawoods?

Jose Baker
Jose Baker

Attached: 1560446219316m.jpg (55 KB, 1024x640)

Leo Bailey
Leo Bailey

Innawoods is a /k/ larp.

Dominic Reed
Dominic Reed

The ATF was in hot water after the 70s and 80s. And then Ruby Ridge happened.

The ATF has a weird history
Originally part of Department of the Treasury in 1886
In 1920 a unit is created called the Bureau of Prohibition
1930 it gets transferred to the Justice Department
1933 it gets transferred back to Department of the Treasury
1950s it becomes the ATTD (Alcohol Tobacco Tax Division
1968 gun control act is passed and we get the ATF as it is now
1972 it becomes an independent bureau

So how does the ATF start to act:

1970s
ATF starts generating retarded cases
To quote the senate subcommittee: ""Based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible."
Subcommittee got evidence that the ATF devoted its efforts on technicalities in malum prohibitum (unlawful acts by statute not anything else)
ATF had been focusing on collectors items
Subcommittee found that 75% of the ATF prosecutions were against ordinary citizens with no criminal record nor intent

Hell, even Ken Ballew was in the 70s.

Blake Wright
Blake Wright

moral of the story, don't cut shotguns for anyone

Adrian Lee
Adrian Lee

The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea. - Mao Zedong
This is how you do it

Michael Gomez
Michael Gomez

Ken Ballew

ATF and local county police plan a raid on a guy
Teenage burglary suspect says there's a local guy who has guns and grenades and shit (Ken Ballew)
ATF decides they wanna raid him too
ATF presses for a warrant
Assistant US attorney tells them to fuck off
ATF presents evidence of an anonymous threat stating "there will be a false call in the area and if you respond you will be shot"
ATF presents this area is known for high crime/frequent gunfire
ATF says Ken Ballew has a misdemeanour for carrying a concealed weapon
ATF says Ken Ballew has registered no grenades with the NRA
AUSA says go right the fuck ahead

ATF dresses in "street clothes" reminiscent of the high crime neighbourhood
ATF completes first raid, doesn't find their target and leaves him a note

ATF claims they knocked and said "Federal officers here with a search warrant, open up"
ATF gets no response but "hears movement"
ATF busts the door in with a battering ram
Ken's girlfriend freaks
Ken jumps out of the bath and grabs an 1847 revolver and rushes to the sound
Ken's girlfriend grabs her own revolver
ATF (in street clothes) see a nude man holding a revolver toward the door
ATF agent 1 fires a gun and ducks to the left
Police Officer 1 fires a few shots and ducks to the right
Police officer 2 shoots Ken Ballew in the face
Ken falls to the ground, his revolver discharges and hits the wall
Ken's girlfriend surrenders wearing only her underwear

Carter Watson
Carter Watson

Government employees acting like the kind of "people" who would work for a government and be able to live with themselves.

Zachary Rogers
Zachary Rogers

Blackpilled has a great video on Waco. If you haven't checked out his channel yet you really should before jewtube ropes him next. He's one of Jow Forumss finest

youtube.com/watch?v=rDbPlUvMFKc&

Xavier Butler
Xavier Butler

What they found was 5 unloaded dummy or inert grenades - which were classified as non weapon curios by the ATF at the time and as such did not require registry with the NRA

Ballew survived with brain damage
His girlfriend married him
He filed a tort lawsuit against the government claiming damages due to negligence
Judge rules his damages were due Ken's negligence
Judge rules since it was a cop, then the government can't be sued
Judge rules they were not negligent in receiving an affidavit despite shit like not knowing his name/believing he had a jeep
Judge rules that because he has inert grenades, and gunpowder/primers for his guns, then it counts as live grenades
Judge rules that because Ballew converted 3 grenades into noise makers, they count as weaponized and no longer inert even though they couldn't explode
Judge rules that by barricading door (even though in high crime area) and being armed they were resisting federal agents
Judge rules that Ken was not in the bath because ATF/Police testify he was bone dry
Judge ruled in favour of the Fed and Ken was told to pay the costs for the fed's defense

Nathan Gray
Nathan Gray

Geez. I never expected the federal government to act up *that* much

Nathaniel Parker
Nathaniel Parker

Waco was a wild government abuse of power. As was Ruby Ridge. McVeigh was right in what he did but he chose a shit target. It should have been Capitol Hill.

Nathan Hill
Nathan Hill

I realized I forgot 1980s ATF, so here's some:

Singer-Swapp Standoff
two Mormon polygamists bomb a church
the bombers then retreat to a compound
stand off begins
first 9 days involve the ATF cutting off electricity and water, bright light arrays and blasting loud noises to disrupt sleep
ATF has brought in the FBI because nothing is working and they've got pretty much an army there of 150 men
Police decide lets hit them with a strobe light then release the dogs
bomber shoots the light
police release the dogs anyway
dog handler is shot and killed
firefight ensues
firefight ends when 2 apcs raid the compound

One bomber gets 17 years + 15 for manslaughter
Another bomber gets 10 years + 8 for murder
Bomber's son gets 10 years
Bomber's wife gets 5 years + 5 years parole
All children are taken custody of by the state

So even when the ATF is in the "right", they still can't fucking do their job properly.

Asher Taylor
Asher Taylor

Apparently some FBI higher up wrote a book about and he claimed Hillary Clinton kept pushing for the FBI/ATI to end it by any means because it was a bad look for the Clinton administration.

Attached: xY5yHKq.png (135 KB, 500x500)

Aaron Green
Aaron Green

Since I am gonna trash ATF, I'll throw in a few more fuck ups

In the 2000s

2001
James Beck shootout
James Beck was a police academy failure and felon
Beck commits a bunch of crimes including getting assault weapons
ATF hears he is getting a bunch of guns
ATF decides to surveil him, by parking vans right outside his house
Of course Beck realizes this
ATF decides to just walk up and arrest him while he was inside the house - not you know, when he was away from his home
Beck decides not to come and a shoot out occurs
This of course leads to a sheriff's department guy getting killed
ATF, US Marshals and cops shoot up both of Beck's neighbour's houses
ATF has bungled and gets the SWAT to come clean up after them
4 hours into the shoot out, tear gas has been introduced
A fire starts
Fire spreads to both the neighbours
Firefighters are told to only cover the neighbours houses
Shootout ends with the roof collapsing killing Beck
Rubble was so fucked up, coroner's can't even say if the roof or a gun killed Beck

Ends up with one neighbour winning 200k because their house was shot 100+ times, and the other neighbour getting 32k because his house was shot about 30 times.

Isaac Reed
Isaac Reed

2004 to 2005
ATF fucking with ya at gun shows edition

ATF runs operation at gun shows
agents approach/discourage people from buying guns
agents interrogate people who buy guns
agents accused sellers of being in business without a license
ATF detains purchasers and buyers temporarily in cars
ATF starts visiting people's homes after purchases
ATF went after women especially believing that any women with a male companion was doing a straw purchase
minority legal gun owners were followed/pulled over and had their guns seized
purchasers were receiving letters telling them to appear at the ATF office to justify their purchase or it would be seized
ATF appeared at purchasers homes up to 3 weeks after the show demanding to see paperwork and arrested those who could not or would not comply

ATF admitted this was a pilot program they wanted to introduce to the entire country.

Xavier Rivera
Xavier Rivera

ATF used to be the Revenoors , busting stills and smashing moonshine jugs. They had guns added to their remit due to Capone and company. Also the NFA was supposed to be a near total prohibition before it was watered down
In the 60s the price of sugar rose so much that the 'shiners could no longer produce White Lightning at a profit and went out of business.
The ATF needed a new reason for their pay and started arresting people selling their collections at gun shows for 'being in the business' without a dealers license.
FOPA created the Curio & Relic limited dealers license to stop this.

Lincoln Gutierrez
Lincoln Gutierrez

Are you on Canadiangunnutz?

Brody Martinez
Brody Martinez

Time for more ATF shit, cause while Project Gunrunner is going on they are running another project.

2011 to 2014
ATF engages in a campaign of Sting Operations
ATF goes to people and promises them huge scores of drugs and money by attacking stash houses that doesn't exist
ATF plans out the operations for them
ATF supplies them with weapons and armor
ATF doesn't go for just gang bangers, but also military members, small time criminals etc.
ATF then traps the prospective criminals and charges them with a fuckton of crimes for a heist that never happens/drugs that don't exist
Usually these charges are at least 15 years long sentence wise
Two federal judges claimed it was a gravely unfair practice and a miscarriage of justice
An Illinois judge claimed it was unconstitutional and that the ATF walked people into crimes without due process
ATF has imprisoned over 1000 individuals this way
7 people have been killed because of this operation

ATF officials say this is the best method because they are pre-emptively targeting people likely to commit serious crime rather than waiting for them to do so

To which many judges have claimed this is entrapment and essentially punishing people for thoughts and possibilities.

Zachary Cruz
Zachary Cruz

Since we are talking about ATF fuckery in general now
ATF: Project Gunrunner

ATF determines mexican cartel are a leading gun trafficking organization
ATF decides to sell guns and try and track them

Operation Wide Receiver
ATF Facilitate a licensed dealer selling guns to traffickers
ATF Don't coordinate with mexican law enforcement
ATF claim to interdict before guns cross the border
ATF only stops 64 of the 474 guns flowing into Mexico
Charges are brought against all of 9 people

Hernandez
ATF let a dealer sell to traffickers
ATF surveillance covers traffickers as they head to the border
ATF informs the Mexican law enforcement
Mexican law enforcement loses track
No charges are filed

Medrano
ATF lets a dealer sell to a trafficker
ATF lets the trafficker take the guns over the border
ATF loses 100 guns
Entire time ICE is telling them this is retarded
No one charged gets more than 50 months

Ian Ortiz
Ian Ortiz

Quit glowing, FBI.

Gabriel Diaz
Gabriel Diaz

Attached: tQSMqaV.jpg (28 KB, 374x503)

Nathan Reed
Nathan Reed

Any ATF non-fuck ups?

Henry Morgan
Henry Morgan

Operation Fast and Furious
Dealers start reporting firearms purchases that are suspicious
ATF lets them go and keep buying shit
ATF tells agents not to arrest them
ATF tells local law enforcement not to arrest them
ATF decides its gonna track the guns
ATF lets the guns go over the border
ATF promptly loses track and has no real info to give to Mexican law enforcement

Bought 500 guns have been recovered. Over 2000 are still missing. Most appear in crime scenes along the border.

This is not including the whole part where they used licensed dealers FFLs to sell guns themselves even without the dealers knowledge - which has lead to dealers losing their license.

John Harris
John Harris

I posted one. Here

No, I don't like to use forums/social media.

Believable. Also worth note, the following individuals died at Waco siege (in the initial raid iirc, but definitely at the siege):

Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

All 4 are previously Clinton bodyguards.

Christian Cox
Christian Cox

Fuck you leaf. I was going to recommend it to him if he isn't.
They prevented a total semi-auto ban in the mid 2000s, stopping it cold the morning it was to be announced.
The relevant minister walked into his big press conference, mumbled a few words and walked out again.

Dominic Howard
Dominic Howard

Fair enough. I used to be a gun forum mod, now I'm user on here only.

Michael Price
Michael Price

Is no one going to mention that the CS gas they used is banned in war? They knew the problems with it and they knew it was lethal especially when used on children but they filled the house with 400 canisters of it anyway. There's also video evidence from the helicopter that shows they were shooting people who tried to come out of the house while it was filled with CS gas and on fire.

Jaxson Morales
Jaxson Morales

also mandatory video
youtube.com/watch?v=xsDBAixXJdM

Christopher Peterson
Christopher Peterson

video evidence from the helicopter that shows
That was the FLIR thermal footage I mentioned above.
The inventor of FLIR died in his hotel room the night before he was to testify before congress about that footage.

Eli Hernandez
Eli Hernandez

1:10 is when they shoot their own guy on the roof.

Henry Martinez
Henry Martinez

was meant to reply to

Adrian Gonzalez
Adrian Gonzalez

/thread
fuck the glow in the darks.

Attached: Glowing-4.png (355 KB, 370x547)

Daniel Bell
Daniel Bell

That was the Davidians shooting the ATF. They killed a few of them.

Grayson Gomez
Grayson Gomez

and CS is military grade Tear Gas.
It is for war.

Oliver Cook
Oliver Cook

Straight up mass murder is what happened.

Ayden Campbell
Ayden Campbell

wasn't it the atf that fucked everything up and not the fbi

Grayson Ross
Grayson Ross

The ATF started the shit show, the FBI killed everyone and covered it up.

Janet Reno gave the orders. it took a long time for karma to catch her. She was the first victim of the Trump Curse.

Isaiah Scott
Isaiah Scott

what is this film called?

Michael Thomas
Michael Thomas

Missed the part where FBI agents went inside the compound firing automatic weapons after breaching the compound with the tank

Caleb Walker
Caleb Walker

I’m sure they were just a cult but the government under Rothschild Clinton torched those mofos

Asher Foster
Asher Foster

that's a photo from inside their home

Gavin Brown
Gavin Brown

That's Gloria Vanderbilt and her sons. The other one suicided at 23. The artwork has Tanit, a Phoenician god of child sacrifice similar to Moloch, cooking Jesus.

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