Despair and the eventual nihilism which follows it are powerful forces which seem to be the greatest hurdles for nearly everyone to overcome. Normalfags refuse to acknowledge reality in large part due to the mess we are in. Most understand on some level that the West is dead. They either ignore this pressing awareness or distract themselves from what it suggests by holding on to many of the ideas which caused the mess to begin with, such as mutual racial cooperation in troubled times, especially with the constant reminders of how we will be, and in many ways are, under the yoke of alien peoples.
The sheer number of demoralization threads here cement the importance this method of psychological control has over its target. By nearly every metric and fact, our best case scenario is the simultaneous collapse of Western governments. False optimism does nothing to soothe the frustration, anger, and sorrow felt by those intelligent to understand the score. To learn how to function under such stress has always been the realm of spiritual systems and religion. Religion as it is expressed today in the West typically rejects personal action insofar as obtaining a different collective outcome, instead relying on rejection of the material for some specified time (death) or even unspecified time (apocalypse) which divine forces will intervene and set the world right OR the spirit will escape to paradise.
This thread is for discussion of spiritual systems with actual functionality considering the aforementioned environment and failures of current systems.
revenge can give a man purpose. it transcends the material. it is pure. if a man has been robbed of everything, even his very soul, he can still make revenge the purpose and focus of his entire life. he can even give it as inheritance to his offspring. indeed, the very drive for hos revenge could bring him to have children to ensure the cause does not die with him.
Revenge is definitely a good motivator, but it's unrefined and unfulfilling. I suppose that may be more dependent on the individual though.
Dominic Fisher
This is the douchiest thread OP I've seen in months. I read and write English at a college grad level. Having said that, this isn't your dissertation nigger, so stop writing as if it were. You could've said all that in one third of the words if you didn't do your darndest to max out your vocabulary use. There's a place for that, and it isn't 4chins.
Know your audience you fucking shithead. By the way, >By nearly every metric and fact, our best case scenario is the simultaneous collapse of Western governments. That has not been established in any way whatsoever. To make that claim just shows how myopic, short-sighted and unoriginal you really are.
>I read and write English at a college grad level. If that were the case you would demonstrate it. Credentialism especially related to modern Universities has always been derided here, especially those that try to give weight to their post.
>Know your audience you fucking shithead. Why are you so buttblasted that someone posted a thoughtful thread? If nobody responds I really don't care, but it seemed better to have something more worthwhile than cuck shit and endless nonsensical meanderings.
>You could've said all that in one third of the words if you didn't do your darndest to max out your vocabulary use. No, I always speak and write like this. The main reason is to precisely communicate concepts.
>That has not been established in any way whatsoever. To make that claim just shows how myopic, short-sighted and unoriginal you really are. No, it really has. If it was unoriginal or myopic, why is it that the vast majority of people believe there is some form of political solution? Society is thoroughly infected with beliefs opposed to reality and contrary to nature, our way of life is so artificial and divorced from nature to such a degree that it is unlikely for any sort of organic grassroots realization to occur regarding any of this. We control none of the crucial institutions regarding wealth, manufacturing, propaganda/entertainment, education, or state power. You are a moron.
Just my opinion. Revenge alone doesn't seem to provide much meaning, but it does give purpose. I meant unrefined in the sense that it seems to result in more or less haphazard lifestyle and action. Again, it might just vary depending on the person.
Benjamin Cox
Stop acting like you belong here lil soiboi
Jacob Kelly
Reset, collapse gods gift, without it eternal damnation would consume this world.
God, heaven, are not towards pleasure, instead towards pain and strife leisure, pleasure are on the road towards hell, a road towards rejecting god as you don't need him anymore.
A godly man today would not work for the devil, would not try to save this system/protect it. He would damn it, and condemn it to the fall.
Eden is nature without rule or form, it's our desire to know gods nature, to understand the environment to thrive rather than survive. that is the snake in the grass.
I pray everyday for nature to consume this retched hell we call civilization. The only fascism I need, Is gods natural one.
>Revenge alone doesn't seem to provide much meaning Honestly, no offense, but that just seems like Hollywood propaganda. In movies, tv shows and ultimately (since our chilhood) in Cartoons we always see the villain trying to get revenge on the main character because of some foul of the past. In the cartoons, specifically the one seeking revenge is always drawn using dark/cold colours, while the protagonist is drawn with bright colours. Appears to be brainwashing propaganda. In Jow Forums terms: >Yes goyim, don't seek revenge! In (my) movies it's always said that revenge is unfulfilling and leaves you with a void in your heart!
Isaiah Peterson
I agree with you except for embracing a future no different than that of a beast. If we have the capacity to thrive I can't reconcile intentional dismissal of that given capacity as virtuous or intended. The issue seems to be false ideologies and morality, not the pursuit of knowledge and its application. You can live in harmony with natural/God's law and still pursue an upward path.
Can you explain further how you arrived at your conclusion?
Nathan Hernandez
There is no upwards, only a rejection of our need for gods salvation from suffering.
Suffering is eternal it has no foundation it can exist even in absolute bliss.
Our attempt to escape suffering is one that compels us to reach for knowledge, to become gods of our environment, forever believing we'll escape suffering, we wont and never will. this is hell.
To accept suffering, to accept your damnation is to let go of your sense of control that your hands your destiny is always and forever in the hands of the almighty.
It's only when you give up the path of Samsara Embrace your mortality and hopeless unknowing, you follow the path of god. his intentions and his will alone.
I'm not making any moral judgements about it. It's about the only reason I manage to function some days. The problem for me is that it doesn't provide enough meaning when I walk the streets and see what it is I am trying to save. I understand the (((alien))) hand behind much of it which reinforces revenge as a motivation, but that alone simply isn't enough to give me fulfillment to the degree required to truly overcome demoralization. I suspect I am far from alone here, consider the lack of meaningful action in general.
Liam Foster
And this ladies and gentlemen is why christianity needs to die.
Grayson King
I'm gonna need you to explain the dynamic of giving up/inaction, escape from Samsara, and salvation from suffering despite being ever present. also: What are your thoughts on the Bhagavad Gita?
David Reed
You're the same Seychelles user from that Christian thread?
Samuel Flores
Yeah I addressed this perspective in my initial post as unproductive already. Sounds like some form of Dharmic Christianity, perhaps it is simply Hindu. It's definitely not Buddhist though.
Landon Collins
Giving up or inaction are not related to collapse/reset. change your goal. Inaction or giving up is more inline with fighting a pointless battle, to fight for something already lost. our civilization has no return to nature it will always strive to conquer it. This leads forever towards fear of death, fear of suffering, and in so fear of the unknown, we will always strive towards godlessness, giving up god, inaction towards peace.
Salvation from suffering will never be ours to decide, accepting suffering, acting without the goal to avoid suffering is a life of great spiritual, godly submission.
Presence means to endure, no resistance to now no matter how impatient or how undesirable, it's gods will.
My thoughts on Bhagavad Gita, are none. I've no interest in knowing such things. the will of god is not for me to know, only follow. you will follow it the moment you accept what is happening without rejection.
Joshua Anderson
Any luck on looking further into the CI stuff?
Henry Wood
Neat, a graphic I can tl;dr. Fucking garbage.
Jack Peterson
>Giving up or inaction are not related to collapse/reset. Arguable. If collapse is a recognized "good" (it is), inaction is passive participation in said system unless you are completely removed from it. Separation requires action.
>Inaction or giving up is more inline with fighting a pointless battle, to fight for something already lost. Not suggesting to save this system, nobody in their right mind believes that is even possible at this point. Prolonging it is the worst thing that could be done.
>Presence means to endure Agreed, survival is the goal.
>no resistance to now no matter how impatient or how undesirable, it's gods will. >you will follow it the moment you accept what is happening without rejection. How is this any different from saying "give up and accept evil"?
>the will of god is not for me to know, only follow. How do you walk a path unseen
Sebastian Barnes
I don't think you can revitalise young men with christianity any more. It's old and had its time. Something new is required.
Matthew Powell
That image is based on Hindu yoga/chakras and Qabbalah. How do you simultaneously propose complete ignorance and occult teaching? This is strange, especially in light of the fact you promote complete inaction and submission.
That's largely the basis of this thread. Christianity, especially in its current manifestation, has no vitality within it. It's the antithesis of what's needed.
On CI? Well, I've stated my position on CI before. I don't believe in much of their theory (though not all of it is wrong), but they do have some very good content and information, they're also good at dispelling secular academia's myths when it comes to the Old Testament. Here's the most popular CI website with all their content: christogenea.org/
Cooper Gomez
It's only strange, If you assume, I ask you to know and then avoid suffering. I ask you embrace suffering, not run from it, you can ask and find the answers to our reality, and if you do, you should know, that knowing is not a solution to your pain.
anything you do with knowledge changes nothing about this. when you stop fighting to avoid pain, your goals in life will become as meaningful as the worm in the dirt.
and in doing so you'd be only human, we where given free will, the freedom to willingly assume we can do better. than this reality.
And on my position on Serpent Seed, the Cainites didn't survive the flood, but the curse of Cain would've been passed onto Canaan and thus his descendants (as curses or sins can affect not only what happens later during your lifetime, but your descendants, and entire tribe/ethnicity).
Eli Walker
I couldn't remember how far into it you've looked. It's pretty solid overall, I just couldn't buy into it wholeheartedly for numerous reasons, one being the sheer number of 'reaches' so to speak. That site is largely where I became familiarized with the theology. Ultimately it preaches to 'sit back and have faith, God will call us to action'. Not a very pro-active outlook.
Ethan Hill
It's pretty much the same thing Vikernes advocates for. Basically, live an autonomous lifestyle, starve the system, goes both ways.
Jace Scott
That link you shared has some good info on the subject of the nature of the flood and survivors. One of the main reasons I find it difficult to accept Christianity is the scripture itself. It seems that it can be interpreted a thousand different ways depending on context, translation, tradition, etc. Tiresome.
Isaac Morris
The right way to "interpret" Scripture is the same way the early church fathers did (those that didn't include foreign philosophies like Pseudo-Dionysus or Origen) and also the Second Temple Old Testament scholars. When it comes to the Old Testament, for example, Josephus clears many things up in his Antiquities, for example, it's commonly said that David was commanded to bring Philistine foreskins, but apparently, it's actually Philistine heads.
Joshua Gomez
They don't promote self-sufficiency and separation as a goal, at least not in that way or in that context. The context is entirely different as well. I agree with Varg on many things just like CI, but he's also wrong on a lot.
Leo Wood
You forgot about the Neo-Tarvantrantzians subjugation of the book of Bilperstud into the more widely understood Kakibostildoke style, right?
Mason Hernandez
>I agree with Varg on many things just like CI, but he's also wrong on a lot. My main problem with Vikernes is that he's either very correct with what he teaches or advocates, or he advocates things so stupid (for example, all the matriarchal bullshit, or brown eyes being non-European) that nobody takes any of it seriously.
Cooper Myers
Good thread!
Thomas Mitchell
You're a fucking liar
Adam Lopez
Yeah, poisoning the well essentially. Disinfo tactic employed with people like Alex Jones, but I think Varg is actually sincere (just a tad retarded). His mindless fans tried to argue the "Americans whites are all part nigger" and when I pointed out the old European criticism that they were racist for being so segregated, he claimed it was more of a statement on "culture" and "socialization", missing the irony of this statement as a racialist entirely.
Luis Thomas
>Disinfo tactic employed with people like Alex Jones, but I think Varg is actually sincere (just a tad retarded). Yes, that's the conclusion that I came to. I didn't rule out the possibility that he could be actual controlled opposition or was groomed for this role, but it's most likely that he's legitimate, just promotes massive disinfo. So, Vikernes is essentially half good or true or half disinfo/ridiculousness. In a way, he's basically the Norwegian version of the Unabomber.
Joseph Thompson
Do an experiment and see if it works with you. Even if it will not work you will end having read a good fanfiction. Look at the blessed Anna Katharina Emmerich. Read about her life, then the books about her visions. These books are about the creation an what happens afterward, the whole old testament, then about Mary before Jesus, then about Jesus and his passion and resurrection. Then visions about the future.
Also, on a sidenote, recently, an Australian user recommended this channel, essentially a Protestant white nationalist platform rejecting much of Christianity as Neoplatonism. Though it isn't Christian Identity (saying that whites come from Japheth). youtube.com/channel/UC_yfZS1N2VSbRRKiDc_zEBw/videos From my observance, it seems pretty good, except there's some disinfo thrown in there like flat earth or that because jews aren't the only enemy, they're not to blame, though he is an anti-Zionst.
Jaxon Smith
Christianity fundamentally makes no sense and nobody, nor any interpretation I have seen, makes any sense of it. I have tried to get answers either from believers or directly, yet nothing. >God creates man >Man disobeys God >Man is punished (by sin itself or God, doesn't matter) >Man fails to live up to the standard constantly >God sacrifices himself to save man >This good news is intended to be spread to the world >Misunderstanding and misinterpretation confuse any meaning it had >A strong delusion will be put upon the people, nobody will know what is wrong or why they are being punished >An apocalypse will result due to this >In the afterlife all will be forgotten What the hell is the point of this and why does it make sense to anyone? It self negates, and there isn't even a lesson being taught. Why would an all knowing God do this? Boredom? Sadism?
Gavin Edwards
>demoralization is their goal >our best case scenario is collapse
glow much? can't figure out which side you're on?
Jacob Jenkins
Thanks, I'll check it out. Not all that thrilled about the shitheads that pull the strawman "you're blaming jews for everything if you point out they're behind promoting destructive behavior and supplying these poisons".
Justin Stewart
Do you promote giving up and accepting your role as a slave, passively participating in this society? Do you believe we have enough time or power to reverse the damage which has been done?
Cooper Bailey
Yeah I get what you mean about the ambiguity and numerous potential interpretations. If you haven’t before, it’s definitely worth learning more about the Talmud, and I don’t mean that in a negative way about it, its extremely interesting. It basically goes over every last line of the old testament/torah and essentially provides interpretations and arguments from rabbis over the centuries, Maimonides probably being the most respected. A lot of lawyers start out in their younger years in Talmudic studies. Many people don’t understand that the Talmud is about interpretation and argumentation and isn’t read as the literal truth.
But of course, this begs the question, would the word of god be so ambiguous? And to answer this, I would say think about it this way. Essentially the human spirit, the way we are at the most fundamental level and have acted and will act in the future is incredibly complex and can’t be described in simple statements like “Man is this” “Man does that” “Man likes this” etc. I mean you could write such a document but it wouldn’t give you the insight a story can. For instance, I put it to you that the story of Cain and Abel shows you something fundamental about humanity and its complexities. Now of course though, one starts to wonder if this is just handwaving and ambiguity and abstraction to find value in the Bible. And to this I would say, and I’m not really religious more occult minded, but certain stories even non-religious ones that for whatever reason stay with us for millennia are almost like a discovery in themselves and though it’s hard to say exactly what it is about them, there is some fundamental truth to be found in them but that truth is irreducible to simple unambiguous statements.
Essentially, it teaches a specifically collectivist and a patriarchal lesson. Adam (the first patriarch) plunges man into sin because he listened to the Serpent, who offered him "freedom". As man failed to live up to the standard during the time of the patriarchs and prophets (who all lead up to Jesus), Jesus (the "second Adam") is sent to offer salvation. We don't have an individual role in such efforts and we must pick a side. I recommend you see this German user's threads:
>It basically goes over every last line of the old testament/torah and essentially provides interpretations and arguments from rabbis over the centuries The Talmud is first and foremost, based on the Mishnah.
>Many people don’t understand that the Talmud is about interpretation and argumentation and isn’t read as the literal truth. This is the argument jews make when goyim start poking around and find shit meant to be kept secret. If it wasn't read as literal truth, Halacha wouldn't exist.
Ryder Cooper
What is the *point* of this lesson? Why is this the case at all regarding an omniscient benevolent creator, especially when in the end it is nullified? I'm genuinely confused here.
That dimension only makes it MORE insane since Satan was created by God, develops a nature apart from God (unforeseen?) and causes trouble corrupting creation. It is stated that Satan can't create, but the concept or will to corrupt, if apart from God, must have been created in order to exist.
Brayden Cruz
As to the first part, the Talmud does of course cover more than just the old testament, I only mentioned that part for the overlap with Christianity.
As to the second point, I'm not Jewish so I can't be an authority on it but I would say that yes, it does form the basis for their religious laws and they have used the document as a guide. I don't dispute Halacha. Despite that, it still isn't seen as the literal truth. I mean crack open the Talmud and its literally statements by rabbis over the centuries, this is necessarily not the word of god and thus not literal truth, though it is considered doctrine which can be changed in the rabbinic tradition. Not to say that at this point its really changed but there could yet be another reformation.
What I'm getting at is, when one is confronted with the question of the ambiguity of the bible, they need only look at the Talmud to see just how many interpretations every line of text can possibly have.
Parker Nelson
Again, the point is to teach obedience, essentially collectivism. When it's "nullified", do realise that it doesn't include any non-believer. People that don't accept eternal life, well, won't get eternal life. >Satan was created by God Satan/Lucifer (morning star/Venus) is a fallen angel. Essentially, after the creation of man, he rebelled (was given free will), and the heavenly host tossed him down to earth like lightning.
Elijah King
...
Nathan Lee
There is the need to understand. >Rationality. To choose willingly >Freedom To Love (your Creator) Any immortal spirit is rational( as able to abstract) and free, it's a metaphysical necessity. Angels, our soul is of that kind.
John Thompson
The Talmud specifically states that they beat God at his own game, that he has respect for the Rabbis and Talmud, and that the Talmud takes precedent over ANY other source of law.
Read Michael A Hoffman II "Judaisms Strange Gods" for starters. You can find free pdfs in many places, it is a quick read.
Angel Turner
polacks arent nihilists they are spooked with race and nation
Thomas Scott
>/ptg/ Fuck off
Luis Reyes
>despair >bad Despair is good for you lad. It means you still have an ounce of vitality in you.
Carter Carter
Why not annihilate him entirely? What is accomplished through the annihilation of the souls of people that are lost as a result of Satan? Were they created bad? Does keeping them out accomplish something? I'll contemplate what you've said, but it isn't actually answering the core meaning of what I am getting at. There's a disconnect of understanding the meaning and purpose of the fundamental nature of the story, so to speak.
I'm sorry but I disagree that freedom has anything to do with love. You can't choose to love, it is dependent on external factors.
Justin Sanders
Some are, but that was mostly describing the bulk of the White population.
Despair is still a hurdle which needs to be overcome
Dylan Reyes
What you're saying seems to make sense. Are you sure its the case that EVERY immortal spirit is free though?
Took a look at that book, the reviews are mixed to say the least haha. Here's the thing though, on the one hand, do I deny the presence of some questionable lines in the Talmud? No
But on the other hand, I've known a lot of Jews and there does seem to be rather significant doctrinal disagreement among them. I mean there are of course the reform, conservative, and orthodox branches, but even those further splinter so its really hard to say what exactly is believed and thought of these lines by the various branches of judaism. I mean to be honest, I tend to have a more charitable view of religious Judaism than most around here. I think most of what is commonly criticized about Jews/Israel here is more to do with secular forces than religious ones.
Jayden Morales
Why? To really truly love you must be totally free. Any coercion, even minimal would falsify love irremediably.
William Thompson
God isn't trying to create a permanent nice paradise where there is no evil, he created living beings with free will for a reason. >What is accomplished through the annihilation of the souls of people that are lost as a result of Satan? Were they created bad? Does keeping them out accomplish something? We people are reproduced. God doesn't create new souls bad. In-fact, "soul" in the Koine Greek Paul used was "pneuma", which literally means "breath" or "life force", i.e. essentially the heart. In the Old Testament, there were two words, Ruach (translated to pneuma) and Nephesh (although translated to psyche, it actually means the same thing as pneuma, the life force). TL;DR, "soul" means "life-force" in the Bible.
Jack Reed
>Do you believe we have enough time or power to reverse the damage which has been done?
yea
Sebastian Flores
>The reviews are mixed No shit. Find A SINGLE source of criticism towards jews or judaism that doesn't have "mixed reviews". The book is fucking cited with direct quotes from the Talmud itself. Read the fucking book yourself, don't use reviews as a cop out. No wonder you're a fan of pilpul. Explain why secular jews will attack any other beliefs system EXCEPT judaism directly, even if the point of contention is paralleled in judaism.
Ayden Hernandez
>God isn't trying to create a permanent nice paradise where there is no evil For the duration of mankind as it is right now.
Joseph Parker
I'm recalling Aquinas arguments, if i remember correctly. In reality I dug these topics years and years ago, and I'm beyond, in the sense that I'm forgetting slowly what it took me here, I just know the arguments were right and now I'm exploring other things. Like Pythagoras theorem, it is right, i knew the reasoning, i forgot it...
Jaxon Jackson
If I love something it is not a choice, therefore there is no freedom involved. I don't choose to love my parents, it is dependent on multiple factors external to 'free' will. Biology, experience, etc. Love is dependent therefore on knowledge, among other things. The only reliable source of knowledge about God would be from within, a direct link to God. How can that be distinguished from your own mental projections? Why can some contact Him and others can't, despite the desire to do so?
I was just making a rhetorical point. What was the reason for free will? "Freedom" is defined typically as a removal of obstacles, and I believe that is how it is being used here. Is ignorance not an obstacle? How do we have "freewill" if we are deceived, deluded, and ignorant regarding a decision and what would be the point of creating such a situation? The typical answer is "to ensure we CHOOSE to be with/love God, he loves us and gave us a choice to love him in return". We are given the option to choose damnation as a sign of love, and to top it off we will also be deceived from the beginning and sent strong delusion by said God. How is that "freewill" exactly? Lies and restricted information place massive barriers on "freewill", yet these were "part of the plan". It just doesn't make sense.
Elijah Roberts
Explain
Christopher Gonzalez
Free will isn't "freedom". Free will includes our ability to rebel, to try doing whatever we want, including straying away from God's path. A slave has free will, but doesn't have freedom for example. He isn't mentally being forced to follow what his master says, he might despise his master and may attempt to betray him, but he doesn't because his master has him under physical control. Here, we can use your free will to either rebel against God or have faith in God.
Christian Carter
I don't know to me it's clear that freedom is a requisite to love, if you're not free are you loving? If you are coerced to save a person in danger and if instead by sacrificing your life you save him where is the love? >Love is dependent therefore on knowledge, Rationality yep. >The only reliable source of knowledge about God would be from within, a direct link to God. How can that be distinguished from your own mental projections? Jesus, God, the Logos >Why can some contact Him and others can't, despite the desire to do so? True. Not many can't, almost none. But you can nonetheless experience Him, the fruits of the Spirit following His word. I'm absolutely positive on the fact, because I'm experiencing them, that living his word, praying daily will give you the same results.
Asher Mitchell
Freewill is "freedom of the will", freedom is a state of being and in the context of our conversation, related to the will. We were given the ability to stray from God's path by the removal of obstacles related to such. What you are referring to is physical freedom, or freedom of action. The term "freedom" is a noun describing a thing i.r. state of being, and an adverb when applied to a specific action describing its nature.
Adrian Hall
bump bump
Brayden Parker
Yes, I'm saying it isn't like physical freedom.
William Sanders
Sexual urges are most powerful forces. Hon it. Work towards attaining it .
Nolan Harris
You can't be coerced to love but that doesn't mean it is a choice, as you described it. I love something or someone because of their nature, I hardly have a choice regarding that. Their's also a biological component as well but that's not even necessary to accept to make my point.
>I'm absolutely positive on the fact, because I'm experiencing them, that living his word, praying daily will give you the same results. So, fake it until you make it so to speak? You must first be a Christian before getting confirmation? I'm not trying to be inflammatory.
Joseph Morgan
I'm not a virgin if that's what you're suggesting, and I didn't arrive at my conclusions do to a lack of sexual activity. In fact, sort of the opposite occurred.
Jordan Thomas
Can't you similarly be enslaved and bound by chains of ignorance, deceit, and delusion?
Brody Adams
Maybe I've understood where our communication problem is. Love as you are intending it's the natural spontaneous feeling on something that, without our will participating, arises. I'm intending the love our will, by understanding the thing in object of the love, can or cannot choose to love. You can naturally love to steal too but you can choose not to do it, you can love to drink whiskey but dying for it is your choice. The natural inclination, being the object of love a bad thing must be and can be corrected, instead if you're postulating you can't control yourself, thus you're a beast. At this point, the doctrine on the original sin must be brought in. Since the OS our will is inclined to choose the evil it comes natural and it takes an act of will to stop, before choosing the good was natural and to act against it took the serpent to lie and persuade. >So, fake it until you make it so to speak? I don't know nothing about you, if you're baptized or not even.. You must first be a Christian before getting confirmation? If by confirmation you mean the sacrament, yes >I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I know
Adam Diaz
Bro, i must go. If this is still active i will try to debate further if there is something to debate about if course.
Gavin Ward
Are you saying as in, you're in an entire mental state where you can't follow God's ways?
John Campbell
Basically. If a person knows nothing about God's true nature because they have been fed lies, is their rejection based on an unobstructed will? Were they able to make the choice freely, or was something interfering?
Thanks for taking the time. I'm not trying to debate in the sense of proving a position. I'm trying to answer my own questions and come to a better understanding.
Elijah Wilson
I would then say they were able to make the choice freely, but that it's basically based on that their road to faith was blocked. Take Moses. He didn't know any better about God, he was raised in Egyptian society under the Pharaoh himself, was probably an Egyptian pagan when he was young, but after he escaped to Arabia, God revealed himself there via the burning bush, and he realised the truth. So, think of that, but a child knowing nothing better about God, and then later realising the truth of God after he escapes such conditioning, and he later chooses to follow God by his own will.
Evan Gutierrez
I like your way of writing. Ignore the normal people.
Tyler Reed
Or in another way, the allegory of the cave (though I don't like Plato). Being stuck underground, knowing nothing about the outside world, and later after leaving it, choosing to embrace the outside world.
Andrew Lewis
It seems that freewill is then dependent upon personal revelation related to divine intervention/inspiration or some sort of life altering event regarding an awakening of consciousness associated with God. The bottleneck there would be understanding the event, unless it is absolutely clear and undeniable. In such a case I can't imagine a person willingly dismissing it. Why would they?
Michael Walker
Well I have to go, will check back later.
Jack Morales
I see this as irresistible grace, how you can't willingly dismiss this even as somebody who's rejected the Gospel. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_grace Though it's typically associated with Calvinism, Augustine also talks about this.
