When did you realize democratic socialism was the only good form of government to follow...

*democratic socialism isn't socialism.

*democratic socialism is socialism. Make up your mind.

What so are you saying Democratic Socialism isn't socialism? That's what I said.

Socialism has never worked. Look at what happened to European socialist countries. Overrun with Muslims. It does not work. The goal of socialism is always communism.

Democratic socialism is socialism.
Social democracy isn't socialism.

Know the difference.

European countries aren't socialist. Far from it.

>Democratic socialism is socialism.
No it isn't. Nothing about the DSA is socialist. There used to be a marxist revolutionary Democratic Socialist movement, but that's effectively no longer exists. Social Democracy also used to be marxist revolutionary until Bernstein turned it into reformist. This is exactly what the DSA has done, changed their name so people don't think they're just another group of social democrat reformists, which they are.

Where? No it was not you're talking nonsense. You make it up as you go along.
You can't just 'change the name'. What happend was dumb cunts like bernie sanders and Alexandria cortez mistaken social democracy for democratic socialism and their NPC supporters went along with without knowing the facts.

Please don't use triggering and words used to disparage minority groups who can't fight back.

That's because real socialism hasn't been tried yet.

Where's Challenger-kun when you need him?

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Pmsl if that is the case then real capitalism hasn't been tried.

Sorry, I'm not willing to afford them that. If social democracy started out marxist and then became reformist and we recognize that social democrats are no longer marxist, then why not the same for democratic socialists? Allowing people to carry on using "democratic socialism" to refer to a form of marxism but having to constantly clarify AOC and Bernie aren't democratic socialists despite them calling themselves it just confuses people even more. Much easier to just trim the wilted leaf.

Actually the only good form of government is Juche you fucking revisionist.

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never

> (You)
>Sorry, I'm not willing to afford them that. If social democracy started out marxist and then became reformist and we recognize that social democrats are no longer marxist, then why not the same for democratic socialists? Allowing people to carry on using "democratic socialism" to refer to a form of marxism but having to constantly clarify AOC and Bernie aren't democratic socialists despite them calling themselves it just confuses people even more. Much easier to just trim the wilted leaf.

Let me break it down for your dumb ass. Social democrats rejected Stalinism in favour for capitalism. Democratic socialism were in favour and still are in favour of abolishing capitalism and have a state own economy (socialism). You saying democratic socialism isn't socialism is just laughable. As I've said you're making up things to suit your personal feelings and not facts. The Catholics church and Christian democrats where also in favour of a welfare state so social democracy isn't exactly a left wing ideology. It's part of a mixed economy unlike democratic socialism. Aoc and sanders policies prove they are more socialist than a social democrat. They hate capitalism, corporations and less government regulations.

Okay, at first I thought you were someone who really knew what they were talking about, but now I see where the confusion is. Wanting a "state owned economy" is not socialism. Socialism is the abolition of private property, a society where people labour, and get that same amount of labour back in another form and where the profit motive has been abolished. AOC and Bernie want none of this, they want a "nordic model" economy, which is still capitalist. A state can direct much of an economy and it still be capitalist.

> (You)
>Okay, at first I thought you were someone who really knew what they were talking about, but now I see where the confusion is. Wanting a "state owned economy" is not socialism. Socialism is the abolition of private property, a society where people labour, and get that same amount of labour back in another form and where the profit motive has been abolished. AOC and Bernie want none of this, they want a "nordic model" economy, which is still capitalist. A state can direct much of an economy and it still be capitalist.

You're just taking the piss now? You don't even know what socialism is. Are you even reading what you are saying?
>abolition of private property
Who owns the property then? The fucking state.
>a society where people labour and get that same amount of Labour back in another form?
Who gives them the Labour back? The STATE!!
With no free enterprise or market then it isn't capitalism.

They DO NOT want a nordic style system. They want open borders, high corporate tax rates, regulated enterprise and higher taxes.
Everything that goes against a social democracy.

>Who owns the property then? The fucking state.
No, the society as a whole.

>Who gives them the Labour back? The STATE!!
No, the society as a whole.

>With no free enterprise or market then it isn't capitalism.
Abolition of markets is a long term goal, but socialism can have "markets", they just don't function like capitalist markets.

>They want open borders, high corporate tax rates, regulated enterprise and higher taxes.
Yeah but none of that is socialism. In socialism there won't even be taxes, or at least not very high ones because they won't be needed.

I honestly don't even know what to say to this other than if you believe any type of socialism is a good thing, then you are retarded. Socialism is basically hard working people forced to contribute more financially and make greater sacrifices to better care for those that do not contribute at all or little to society. Why should I be taxed more to pay for free loaders that do not work ? Rediculous concept.

"Society as a whole" lol. Thanks for the good laughs. Im sure political scientists would love this.

Oh so they are 'state owned capitalism' like china? (Socialism).

Now you're basing things on theories. Just a typical western wannabe commie. I've heard it all before. Socialist ideologies are always based on theory that people will be moral. But real life never works this way. That's why any socialist countries end up as a communist dictatorships. Oppressing millions. If only these westerners could experience it for themselves.

I'm not going to get onto the topic of China with you because that's a whole other kettle of fish.

As for theories - yes, marxism has a great deal of theory. But those theory is only one half, practice is essential. Theory and practice are inseparable parts of scientific socialism. As for moralism, marxism has nothing to do with it. Dialectical materialism would operate even if we were all p-zombies with no concept of morality at all.

youtu.be/bHRxu3XrsHg
We're doomed

It's a whole different kettle of fish because it doesn't suit you. China is a perfect example of what socialism actually is.

All i can say to you is just avoid socialism. It's been tried in different countries in different ways and it does not work.
If you're a social democrat then at least you can hold an argument. Because a mixed economy is best. If you sarcfice liberty for equality you end up with none but if you put liberty over equality you will end up with a high degree of both. We have to look at works and socialism doesn't. Keep things moderate like a true social democrat or classical liberal.

In one video a guy came in telling everyone in the auditorium that there was free bags if anyone wanted them and they were all immediately going to leave the voting session in progress to get their free shit. the girl chairman had to actually yell at them to sit back down, it was fucking hilarious.

right wing surge coming :) enjoy the rope OP

Former Trumpnigger here. I finally understand that there's no war except class war. Racism and bigotry is meant to keep the working class divided. I'm still pro white, have White children and a White wife. That said, the 1% have seen a nearly 200% increase in wealth while the middle and lower classes have seen a decrease. The top 3 billionaires in America have more wealth than the rest of the country combined. I still say gas the kikes but only after wealth equality is redistributed.

I'm voting Bernie. I want Medicare for All and to cancel student debt.

>Socialism has never worked. Look at what happened to European socialist countries. Overrun with Muslims.

Capitalism has brought in 48 Million Niggers and nearly 55 Million Hispanics you retarded Trumpnigger

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Any kind of leftism = mentally sick ppl

China isn't a "perfect example". I don't agree one bit with the path China has taken since Mao. But whether its socialist or not is a debate I don't want to get into with non-socialists.

>It's been tried in different countries in different ways and it does not work.
Which country didn't it work in? Its worked better than capitalism everywhere its been tried. And "liberty". Capitalism isn't liberty in anyway. Liberty of a small group of people to exploit and control everyone else.

You have to go back.

Underrated as fuck!

source plz. I've not seen that one yet

youtube.com/watch?v=9xBEuV0OpOo&t=3987s

Holly fuc

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POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE

> (You)
>China isn't a "perfect example". I don't agree one bit with the path China has taken since Mao. But whether its socialist or not is a debate I don't want to get into with non-socialists.

You're not exactly the right person to be saying what is and what isn't socialism when you're say things like democratic socialism isn't socialism. And its "'society as a whole". I know your kind. Everything is based off theroy. "That wasn't real socialism " just give normal people a break would you?

>Which country didn't it work in? Its worked better than capitalism everywhere its been tried. And "liberty". Capitalism isn't liberty in anyway. Liberty of a small group of people to exploit and control everyone else.

It's unbelievable how stupid you are. Ironically you probably think you're smart. You even find it hard to take in simple truths and facts.

USSR. The only reason the ussr had any success was because they took the wealth off their citizens, invaded other countries and had alot of natural resources. Once the oil dried up so did the USSR.

Liberty and capitalism are two different things. Liberty gives you personal freedom and rights without the government oppressing you ya dumb stupid cunt. You don't even know what liberty is either.
Capitalism is the free market and free enterprise.

Dumb Faggot

Guys, could you please make less noise? I get sensory overload and all the whispering is triggering me. I can't concentrate on the speaker.

*ahem*... point of personal privilege! point of personal privilege! umm... can we keep these posts to a minimum? making me a mass reply queer really upsets my O.C.D. -- please try to reply at a hefty amount of posts so you keep your posts at a minimum. Thank you comrade.

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You didn't give your personal pronouns so I can't take you seriously.

Because its not socialism. How is having capitalism but raising taxes a little on the rich to offset capitalism's problems socialism? Its not.

>"That wasn't real socialism "
When have I said that?

>USSR
Socialism worked fine there. How did the USSR "take wealth" off its citizens? The USSR didn't even have taxes. And the USSR didn't invade anyone except for Finland and Germany during WW2, which was kinda necessary if they were going to defend themselves from Germany.

You can still be oppressed without a government. True liberty doesn't exist in capitalism or socialism, true liberty will only exist in communism.

For me it was when I lost my dick and half of my brain in a gay gangbang brawl.

>How did the USSR take wealth off it’s citizens?
You know what redistributionism is, right? You’re a Socialist, you should. It took the wealth from the successful citizens and gave it to everyone else. When they refused to give it to the state, they were lined up against a wall and shot.
You know what happens when you systematically eradicate all the successful farmers in a region? It STARVES.

>The USSR didn’t invade anyone besides Finland and Germany
You’ve gotta be shitting me with this. Remember Poland in 1939? They made a deal with Nazis of all people to split the country and invaded it from two sides. Not to mention how they took over the independent governments of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. You might say “oh they voted to join!”. That’s the defense Russians give today about Crimea. They were sham elections orchestrated by the Soviet government.

> (You)
>Because its not socialism. How is having capitalism but raising taxes a little on the rich to offset capitalism's problems socialism? Its not.

It's even in the fucking name 'democratic SOCIALISM'. I've already explained to you what 'social democracy' and 'democratic socialism' so im not repeating myself
You're only trolling now because nobody can be this stupid.

>Socialism worked fine there. How did the USSR "take wealth" off its citizens? The USSR didn't even have taxes. And the USSR didn't invade anyone except for Finland and Germany during WW2, which was kinda necessary if they were going to defend themselves from Germany.
>You can still be oppressed without a government. True liberty doesn't exist in capitalism or socialism, true liberty will only exist in communism.

You're just trolling now. If you are actually serious there is no hope for you. Why can't you accept truth? The USSR killed millions in the gulags. You've a long way to come in terms of politics. Just stop taking in socialist views because it is making you and other people delusional. It's actual frightening how deluded people are becoming. They can't even grasp basic facts when it's right in front of them.

Erm.... that's not how the USSR worked at all. There didn't need to be "redistributionalism" because the USSR wasn't capitalist and there was no private property. Redistribution is something capitalists advocate to offset the problems of capitalism, the USSR didn't need it. The way the USSR worked is that citizens contribute labour and get back the same amount of labour in a different form - either wages, social housing, healthcare or other public programs.

>hey made a deal with Nazis of all people to split the country and invaded it from two sides
I won't apologize for that. Stalin approached Britain and the USA and asked them if they wanted to form a coalition against Nazi Germany and they said no because they wanted Russia and Nazi Germany to knock each other out. Both Hitler and Stalin, as much they hated each other, knew that. So they formed a *non-aggression* pact. It wasn't a "alliance".

>It's even in the fucking name
Names can be deceiving.

>The USSR killed millions in the gulags
Yeah according to who? Solzhenitsyn?

Also, true liberty can’t exist in Communism or Socialism because they don’t allow for ANY other ideology to exist!
You know what happens to people like you in a democratic society? No one listens to you and you go on with your life preaching your economic theory. Which is FINE. People don’t have to listen to you, it’s their liberty not to.
You know what would happen to someone like me in a Communist or Socialist society? I’d either get sent to a gulag and do hard labor for the rest of my life or if I’m lucky I’ll just be put on a wall with other “wrong thinkers” and be shot. How the hell is that liberty?

You don’t want to accept it, but Communism has this moralism to it that only it is GOOD and JUST. So if someone disagrees they must be EVIL and UNJUST. There’s your justification for Red Terror.

You people don’t know what is good. There is no fucking good or evil.
Liberty let’s people live the way they want to live. The government’s only job is to protect people’s liberty. Nothing MORE or LESS.

I apologize (I have tardism), it's shit/shat

Any ideology? Not exactly. But capitalism? No. A socialist nation doesn't allow for capitalism just like a capitalist nation doesn't allow for socialism. As for democracy, socialist societies are democracies. And not just show democracies where you vote for for one of two parties who ultimately do the same shit. In socialism, the workers vote on what actually happens in their society, either through organizations they form or mass line. And no, people don't get sent to "gulags" (which were basically just prisons" or killed for disagreeing.

>The government’s only job is to protect people’s liberty
I agree. In socialism, the vanguard parties job is protect the hard-fought liberty of the proletariat.

That video was so funny. Best laugh I've had in awhile. It's like watching a bunch of kid's. Then these people think they can form a government?

I’ll agree with on what you said before, that China isn’t a Socialist nation. You’re right, they’re more National Socialist since the government colludes only with private business which it feels benefits the nation. But see! They tried it and ended up with essentially Fascism. The same could be said for the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact nations.

Anytime Socialism is tried, it revolves into Fascism. Why? It’s the result of the centralization demanded by Socialism! You think that the Vanguard Party is going to be staffed by the Proletariat? No. It will only be available to loyal Party members. What does this mean? Anyone who is willing to preserve the power of the Inner Party.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. A single person doesn’t have to be a dictator. It can be a dictatorship of the many. You give the state all these weapons (legislative and political power) to fight the problems of society (poverty, homelessness, inequality). It will do this, but when it’s done, it’s not going to give those weapons without a fight. And when you inevitably lose that fight, you end up like China or the Soviet Union.

The Eisenhower Administration will continue to fight for dynamic and progressive programs which, among other things, will:Stimulate improved job safety of our workers, through assistance to the States, employees and employers;

Continue and further perfect its programs of assistance to the millions of workers with special employment problems, such as older workers, handicapped workers, members of minority groups, and migratory workers;

Strengthen and improve the Federal-State Employment Service and improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system;

Protect by law, the assets of employee welfare and benefit plans so that workers who are the beneficiaries can be assured of their rightful benefits;

Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of Sex;

Clarify and strengthen the eight-hour laws for the benefit of workers who are subject to federal wage standards on Federal and Federally-assisted construction, and maintain and continue the vigorous administration of the Federal prevailing minimum wage law for public supply contracts;

Extend the protection of the Federal minimum wage laws to as many more workers as is possible and practicable;

Continue to fight for the elimination of discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry or sex;

Provide assistance to improve the economic conditions of areas faced with persistent and substantial unemployment

I didn't say China isn't socialist. I just said the China Question is very complicated. For your purposes, I'd say it is. I just don't agree with them.

>They tried it and ended up with essentially Fascism
China isn't fascist. Fascism is a stage of capitalism that is on the defense from socialism. Its when capitalism drops its friendly liberal facade and shows itself for what it really is. It only arises in countries where socialist revolution is imminent and liberalism is no longer an option.

>It’s the result of the centralization demanded by Socialism
Not really. In fascism the state *directs* the economy but its still capitalism. The state acts as a buyer from capitalists, it doesn't expropriate them. In socialism, there are no capitalists.

>you think that the Vanguard Party is going to be staffed by the Proletariat
Yes. The vanguard party should always be majority worker. The reason the USSR started its slow slide back into capitalism was because the party was flooded with bureaucrats during WW2 and after WW2 they staged a coup because Stalin wanted to get rid of them and start letting the workers have a bigger say on what went on.

>You give the state all these weapons (legislative and political power)
Well what do you think happens in capitalism? The state has a lot of power and weapons in capitalism. I'd say the USA has the most powerful and intrusive state in the world.

They literally adopted a resolution supporting open borders at their last convention. Dropped:

>Resolve:

>Be it resolved that DSA supports the demand for open borders;

>Be it resolved that DSA supports the the uninhibited transnational free movement of people, the demilitarization of the US-Mexico border, the abolition of ICE and CPB without replacement, decriminalization of immigration, full amnesty for all asylum seekers and a pathway to citizenship for all non-citizen residents;

>Be it resolved that DSA develops political education resources to be shared with chapters across the country to deepen and broaden the understanding of the demand for open borders and how to fight for it. These efforts shall be made in coordination between the national Immigrants’ Rights Working Group, the International Committee, and chapters and members across the country working on issues of immigration justice and internationalism;

>Be it resolved that DSA recognizes and reflects our support for open borders in our evaluations and endorsement of political campaigns.

dsausa.org/files/2019/06/2019-Resolutions-Approved.pdf

>Background Information:

>Whereas Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) members across the country organize on a daily basis for anti-imperialism, immigrant justice, labor rights, ecosocialism, and many other issues, with a core belief in solidarity between the workers of the world and an international socialist movement;

>Whereas DSA is an internationalist socialist organization, and as such it recognizes that socialists fight to build working class power for all people, regardless of immigration status or country of residence;

>Whereas borders serve to undermine the international working class, by pitting immigrant and citizen workers in America —and foreign and American workers —against each other in a race to the bottom;

>Whereas border and immigration enforcement are tools of white supremacy, capitalism and imperialism;

>Whereas borders, their creation, and their enforcement, erase the existence and sovereignty of indigenous peoples;

>Whereas borders are, and will increasingly be, utilized to violently dominate and restrict people’s movement as climate change pushes people from their homes;

>Whereas border and interior immigration enforcement threaten immigrant workers’ ability to organize;

>Whereas Comprehensive Immigration Reform policies seek to control who “deserves” entrance to and/ or permanence in the US, and offer empty promises of protection for resident immigrants in exchange for increased border enforcement, and thus will continue to undermine solidarity and organizing efforts for immigrant justice;

>Whereas the continual assault on immigrants’ rights from both the right and the center produces a reactionary, short-sighted view on immigration that reinforces border securitization, which pervades even leftist spaces and thus necessitates a positive, radical vision for immigration justice and internationalism.

sometimes i just want to pretend to be a socialist so i can inject some lib hotties with my maga dna

I'm a Democratic Socialist because I need free things. Capitalism just doesn't work for me and my needs.