I don't understand Marxism, I've read the manifesto and snippets of his other works and I've never understood the significance of it.
There are no arguments to his beliefs, they're just arbitrarily presented as they're facts when they're opinions and subjective interpretations of events. In addition to this, Marx never actually explains how his utopian system should be implemented and that it would just eventually come it about like some kind of theological predestination.
His entire ideology is "wouldn't it be nice if things worked like this? Therefore it is destiny to be like that" and he works to analyze economic affairs through that lenses of assuming his perception of things is infallible and his followers look at him in the same light literally like a religious icon whose word can't be doubted.
>can someone please explain slavery to me? kill yourself
Cameron Parker
Read the Das Capital you lazy nigger
Josiah Howard
>Write the communist manifesto >Spend the first half praising capitalism
Literally every millenial. Had a sugar daddy in Engel. Its unfair that I didnt make the right choices. Please can the unqualified decide how everyone else should live. GIBS NOW! OPEN BORDERS! Economic galaxy brain.
Joseph Cox
You have to understand when this book was written. Worker rights were utter shit. When shit's bad, you want to believe anything that gives you hope. Let's say, you're 25, working 17 per day in a coal mine, your friend got killed in the mine by accident, leaving his wife and children homeless and probably soon dead. Seizing control would feel good, wouldn't it?
Gabriel Smith
European aristocracy funded Marx because they feared the spread of American system government directed industry in europe
Adam Garcia
The Communist Manifesto is just a political pamphlet. His arguments are to be found in their most mature form in Das Kapital, which is only a critique of capitalism, and does not prescribe in any detail (even at all) what sort of political system it should be replaced with. The logical conclusion of the argument is that after a period of dramatically revolutionizing material conditions of society and being a good and necessary thing in general, capitalism is bound to spiral into shrinking profit margins and resort to more and more regressive and oppressive and contrary-to-free-market (e.g. bailouts) practices (as human labour becomes more and more unnecessary, because wagies are the only ultimate source of profit). When wagies are redundant, they will be phased out, which could be a bloody or otherwise unpleasant thing for wagies. Therefore, wagies better rise up and nationalize means of production, because means of production (in other words sources of occupation) being private property is the essence of this situation. For instance, rather than 50% of the population working 40 hour weeks and the rest being "phased out" in various troubling ways, it would be nice if everyone worked 20 hour weeks. The true problem is, when you nationalize stuff, you have to replace supply being dynamically regulated in the survival of the fittest mechanism of the free market with central planning, which is horribly inefficient. But anyway, Das Kapital doesn't really discuss implementations of publicly owned means of production state systems, his main contribution is the argument that capitalism is bound to self destruct. That's why it's called Das Capital, it's a study of capitalism, not a communist revolutionary handbook.
Sebastian Ortiz
>I don't understand Marxism You do; there's just nothing to understand. He very sympathetically tried to reason why the Industrial Revolution so aptly produced poverty and inequality alongside so much efficiency and plenty and decided somehow that Profit = Stolen Labor Value without ever considering the problem of value itself, something the Austrian School blew him out on a few decades later.
There is nothing to understand, he makes the first drastic mistake on page one or two when he starts babbling about "ownership of the means of production" and builds his whole mental building on that wrong premise. In reality "ownership of means of production" is nothing without "markets" where you can generate a profit. No profit, your stuff is worthless, no matter "who" owns it. No wonder he was a broke loser bum living on hand-outs, basic economics fail and only losers like him that want free shit worship him.
Carson Ramirez
Have you really read the manifesto? If so I don't know how you could come away thinking that. However it is important to remember that the manifesto isn't Marx's analysis of capitalism, its a political manifesto of the sort modern political parties make. Its a plan of action rather than a philosophical or economic work. Das Kapital is where his philosophy and economics was laid out. As for how socialism should work, Marx outlines some of his suggestions in Critique of the Gotha Program.
Adam Baker
The Austrian school never "blew him out". Their arguments are either arguing about things Marx never said or just laughably rubbish and easy to disprove.
Blake Wood
It's because Marx was a bullshit creation to justify drastic changes of power in various countries by gaslighting and manipulating foolish populations. No one that "follows" his ideology actually cares about his writings. This is the reality of all "revolutionaries" that existed in the 20th century as well. It's a scam to get nations to agree to hand over their history and people to a small international clique that wants to wipe the slate clean of humanity's past and rewrite it to their whim.
Xavier Sanders
I have no idea which words there are "smart person words" by your standards poor burger.
Here's in a simple-wikipedia style for you, tell me it doesn't answer the question: Main arguments are not in the Manifesto but in another work. The arguments generally considered important are not for communism but rather against capitalism.
Brody Barnes
this
Also OP is a faggot
Lucas Cox
Literally incorrect. Please see The Problem of Value for further information.
>some gypsy getting mouthy with someone who has ten times his income At what point did the OP name any specific work, retard? Based on his post, why would you presume he had not read them both?
David Davis
>At what point did the OP name any specific work, retard? >I don't understand Marxism, I've read the manifesto and snippets of his other works
Seems like you're butthurt a Bulgarian is more knowledgeable on this subject than you are.
Samuel Wilson
/Thread uncultured swine
Mason Morris
There is no "problem of value". The Austrians have a problem with value because they believe its subjective when its demonstrably not.
Nathaniel Baker
>At what point did the OP name any specific work, retard >I don't understand Marxism, I've read the manifesto and snippets of his other works The first fucking sentence. You just couldn’t wait to be superior though, and now you look dumb.
Jonathan Reed
>value is not subjective Fucking how
Aiden Lee
Demonstrate it
Hunter Cruz
Faggot
Jace Wilson
A wise guy, eh? I'll demonstrate by smashing you in the head with a gold ingot, FASCIST!
Joseph Ramirez
>I don't understand Marxism, I've read the manifesto and snippets of his other works
It's the first sentence. Do they even teach you people to read? Do you think that if he actually properly read Capital, he would chunk it among "snippets of other work" while specifying the manifesto by name?
Anyway, I will no longer entertain your burgerisms. >Muh income Who cares. You're an idiot.
Noah Johnson
The manifesto is a pamphlet. If you want to understand it read capital or watch lectures on it.
Jose Diaz
Let's be real here, almost everyone that reads this book will have a hard time and give up. I find it's a bit better to follow along with your copy of Capital and this series of lectures however. youtube.com/user/readingcapital/videos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid
Parker Harris
Don't try to understand Marx from the perspective of philosophy. Read him from the perspective of economics
He was spot on about predicting the way capital tends to accumulate at the top, and how capitalism manages to invent new structures to control and subvert wagies
He never really offered a solution, but he did understand the problem really well
Nathaniel Nguyen
Individual liberty and achievement are denied. You work for the good of The State. This is all you need to know about Marxism.
Because in a consumer market, if you want to at least break even, then you have to sell something for at least the same value as the time and resources that went into it, otherwise you are selling at a loss. That is why value is labour time + cost of resources.
You can also derive value from what an object is worth when supply and demand are in equilibrium, which is what value was originally proposed to solve.
Go find a product that you don't need and have no use for, say peanuts if you're allergic to them. Tell the vendor you want those peanuts for free because they have no utility to you and therefore are worth nothing to you, and see what he says.
Owen James
embarassing idiot, as usual with anyone using the commie flag. Four words commie larper: >Availability >Rarity >Offer >Demand There you go, value is proven to be objective. Now when it comes to "services" value is very subjective to cultural "values", so we would never end defining gray areas, but those 4,words above make a very solid case.
Isaiah Myers
What's embarrassing is when an obvious joke flies right over your head
Isaac Watson
Narcissism and conning idiots like Engels into paying for his degenerate life style.
Nolan Moore
Which color has more value, red or black?
Liam Gonzalez
What do you mean what's the point? Manifesto still has a point, its just that the manifesto was a political manifesto and plan of action. It doesn't contain most of Marx and Engle's analysis because it was meant to be short and understood by the common worker who might not be as well educated. That's people generally recommend it for newcomers and casual readers, because Das Kapital is quite dense.
Robert Miller
>Go find a product that you don't need and have no use for, say peanuts if you're allergic to them. Tell the vendor you want those peanuts for free because they have no utility to you and therefore are worth nothing to you, and see what he says So what you're saying is is that the value of something is variable depending on the subject that wants to have them or get rid of them? Subjective does not mean "does not exist", it just means that there isn't a concrete definition because value is an abstract concept.
Luis Harris
Economic value relates to commodities, things that can be sold and bought, not concepts. Although in different times and different materials, different colours have been worth more. In the medieval era for example, purple was the most valuable colour because it could only be obtained by crushing a certain crustacean's shells and then processing them for a long time.
Blake Allen
>Engels and Marx analysis dude, Das Kapital can be disproven on the first two pages. It is 1000 pages of circular logic. Read it maybe
Alexander Edwards
what's embarassing is how you believe it was a great joke. >The czech know-it-all I would suggest for you to KYS, but you clearly have a narcissistic dissorder, and you would never take your own life by free will.
Ethan Foster
No, value doesn't change because of the consumer because it starts before the product reaches the consumer. Price (which is derived from exchange value) fluctuates, but value doesn't.
The first two pages deal with commodities. What do you have against commodities?
Camden Young
So if I harvest my wheat using a golden scythe, the wheat magically becomes worth more, because the costs of production are higher? Even though you can't tell the difference between the two?
What if I have one hand tied behind my back while harvesting it? It should take me twice as long to do it with half as many hands. Can I pass the doubled labour costs onto my consumers? Can I force customers to buy exclusively from me, and not from cheaper competitors who aren't retarded?
Hudson Nguyen
>Hasn't read Das Kapital GTFO
David Wright
>quite dense So was Marx. So are Marxists. Here’s what I love about Marxists: they love to theorize over coffee and cigarettes and they have no fixed haircuts. Obviously conditioner is also denied. They want to look like and be taken as Very Serious People, very serious. Meanwhile Joe the welder, their one-time target, is raising a family, staying out of trouble and living quite content without Marxist speculation that has no basis in reality.
Some new sjw group larping as "democratic socialists" had a fundraiser here recently. And what you said is exactly what it turned into. First some retarded cunt dubbed Marx "Lord" followed by a bunch of jazz hands and snapping. The entire audience what filled with nothing but disabled rejects. Next some bossy cunt huffs up on stage and tells the audience what shitbags they all are and how they aren't in a socialist society so stfu and pay the org for the greater good. Next some actual socialits from Germany come up and stage and give some caged encouragement to the group but you could tell he was holding back laughter while he himself was quite the pansy loser with bad ideas. What a shitshow.
Alexander Wilson
Their definition of commodities is bullshit and the rest of the 998 pages are based on that definition. Stop baiting faggot, you have been btfo, go troll somewhere else
Justin Cox
Marx was unironically based and redpilled as fuck, and he hated niggers and capitalist jews too
John Cook
>Price (which is derived from exchange value) fluctuates, but value doesn't You're just pretending the fact people need and want things means value is objective. Again, subjective does not mean that those desires do not exist, it just means that value, which you admit in this same sentence, is variable as decided by price. In your moronic dreamworld it's decided by rationing.
Carter Garcia
Fuck marxists clowns and fuck Joe the wielder, but joe the wielder is actually getting fucked by oligarchs larping as libertarians. Meanwhile Stirner is fucking Joe's wife while smoking the fancy Marxist's cigars.
Wyatt Brown
They were basically milking the disabled for money while using preferred pronouns and using their indoor voice (treating everyone like children). These people are so pathetic and disgusting. They genuinely treat their own following they are trying to curate, like shit.
>Marx never actually explains how his utopian system should be implemented Because he was actually never concered with attempts to give a detailed explanation of it due to understanding it would be a utopian approach. In fact, marxism isnt about how to build a new society, it's the critique of capitalist one.
Isaiah Rodriguez
>typos Typing correctly all the time is a spook.
Joshua Edwards
How did you resist the urge to ALL CAPS
Adrian Moore
No? It depends what exactly you mean, did you buy it specifically to harvest wheat or did you already have the gold scythe? Are your employees all using the scythes or it your personal item? But you using a golden scythe isn't going to change the market as a whole. People will either stupid enough to pay more because it was harvested by a gold scythe or your business won't work and you'll start losing money because you're inefficient. That won't generally effect the value of wheat on the mass market.
Childish insults all you can come up with?
What was their definition of commodities then?
I've told you where value comes from. People need and want things, but a capitalist isn't going to sell it to them for generally less than the time it took to make and the resource costs.
Jayden Richardson
>Marx >utopian system You didn't read a sentence of Marx you dipshit
Michael Brooks
>Childish insults all you can come up with? You were insulted. Job done!
Caleb Clark
I know the socialists unite congresses. A bunch of losers who scream for daddy state, want gibs and than screech about how unfair everything is and that one should disregard the laws. Shizophrenics at best, low quality con artists at worst. In all honesty I pray for central internal security to break down to go and firebomb some of their nests just for the fun of it
Scientific socialism refers to a method for understanding and predicting social, economic and material phenomena by examining their historical trends through the use of the scientific method in order to derive probable outcomes and probable future developments. It is in contrast to what later socialists referred to as Utopian socialism—a method based on establishing seemingly rational propositions for organizing society and convincing others of their rationality and/or desirability. It also contrasts with classical liberal notions of natural law, which are grounded in metaphysical notions of morality rather than a dynamic materialist or physicalist conception of the world.[3]
Christopher Lewis
You cannot understand it. And if you could understand it, you would be somewhere else.
The ten Planks of Communist manifesto: #8 "Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture." > Equal obligation How can a stateless and non-hierarchical society enforce this? > Your work-time is equivalent to everybody else's work-time Am I forced to sit and drawn hentai for as long as others work in factory, if I don't want to do manual labour as an artist? Will my hentai comics have high labour value the longer I sketch it? How is an artist's LTV defined? If "... each according to his needs", what stops me claiming to acquire 70% of goods to suffice my 120kg fat ass' needs? How can anyone else define how my needs are sufficed? How can a collective deny me coming over demand 70% of goods that others have gathered through hard manual labour, while I can provide them only hentai sketches? We are living in non hierarchical society after all, right? How is Theft defined in cummunist world, when there's no property in non-hierarchical society you can steal from others?
Christopher Ortiz
How are decisions made in cummunist utopia? By majority vote? That sounds hierarchical desu. How do you force the majority's resolution on minority in a society without a hierarchy or authority? How can you stop minority from implementing their own solutions?
Luke Watson
Why is there need for such a concept as personal property in cummunism? What is difference between personal property and private property? Doesn't my personal property turn into public property in cummunism, if I offer services to others with the said personal property? If private property covers means of production, what stops me from disassembling a mean of production and claim the parts to be my personal property? Why would you waste resource producing more than say (hypothetically) 1 hammer/toothbrush per 7 persons?
Caleb Watson
good post
Kayden Morris
The human labor part of value of a commodity is bullshit. And all the rest of his circular logic stems from it. According to Marx brainfart land on its own has no value
William Gray
Let me rephrase the question What has more value, a red t-shirt or a black t-shirt?
Grayson Mitchell
The argument is in his heritage. There is nobody in the history of neanderthalkind with a more Jewish ancestry than Karl Marx. He was one of the Rothschild's cousins, and his paternal line consists exclusively of rabbis going down generation after generation, nonstop. Marx grew up the same way a New York jew today does: coddled, spoiled, ignorant of the world, shielded from reality, and as a consequence cognitively impaired.
William Young
Labour Theory of Value (LTV):
Non arguments:
>If I dig a hole in my backyard and then fill it in I used labor but made no value! Commies BTFO!
Marx clarified (unlike adam smith) that only socially necessary labor (labor used to produce a commodity with use value) creates value. This is also the case if you spend 1000 years making a bed.
>Nature can create value as well. If an apple falls from a tree then value is created without labor
Marx also noted nature could create value.
>if labor determines price why is coca cola cheaper than bottled water?
Labor doesn't determine price. It determines value (not exchange value or use value) and correlates with the equilibrium price.
Machines cannot create value. If I make a machine that makes diamonds out of thin air then the value of a diamond falls below that of bricks now that they can be aquired with no work what so ever. Price might not fall because you can still manipulate supply and demand but value certainly does.
Some definitions.
Use value = How useful an object is. Exchange value = Market value of a commodity. Different from use value. You can sell a beanie baby for 200$ but it is almost completely useless. Value = the amount of congealed labor withing a commodity.
Cause they realize they are going to be killed and are trying to escape this fate
Lucas Thompson
They are looking for legitimacy to scam workers, and somehow their ivory tower delusion lets them assume that working man must be stupid and will believe their promises of the land of milk and honey. In all honesty, if anybody is planning a shooting spree, they should forget about jews and shitskins for a moment and shoot up a first semester social science auditorium
Jonathan Garcia
Is Marxism a radically centrist theory? The point of communism is that it's a merging of capitalism and socialism after the inevitable collapse of both.
Kayden Hill
Read Capital Vol.1 & Vol.2 Noob
Justin Peterson
So Jones Soda has more value than bottled water, which has more value than coca cola, which has more value than tap water?
Connor Thomas
But he obviously isn't, though.
Tasteless gook.
It is subjective, though. Your life for instance has absolutely no value at all, yet here you are, continuing to exist.
Right, the part he said he'd read more than one work, dumb fuck.
Nothing. Marxlets quibble, dissemble, omit, and threaten once they're exposed as being utterly bereft of any real scientific value or meaning.
NOPE. Value is derived from demand. You're just wrong. You could spend years of your life and thousands on materials making a giant sculpture of a toilet and its value is precisely zero if no one wants to buy it, fucking faggot retard. It does not matter at all the cost to the producer in making the fucking thing.
Still wrong! VALUE IS DERIVED FROM DEMAND. If there is no buyer, there is no market. And markets for concepts have existed for centuries. Sometimes they're called "bookstores" or "concert halls" or "cinemas". And that's also not what commodity means anyway.
Landon Rodriguez
I know you have no idea what you're talking about Marx never said land doesn't have value.
It depends on how much labour time and the cost of resources was put into them.
Hudson Morales
Must watch btfo of Marx and his "ideology" >Spoiler, he was a lazy, hypocritical piece of shit and it bleeds over into his work
This is an old fascist/liberal lie. Workers are more drawn to socialism. Usually the accuser that says all marxists are middle class are bourgeoisie themselves.
Hudson Bennett
> It depends on how much labour time and the cost of resources was put into them. who has right to decide about these things over me, the worker of the labour?
Brandon Bailey
Marxism has never made sense. It is just fantasies and delusions weakly presented as if it is some sort of economic theory. None of it is based on empiricism.
The fact is that most communists have no idea of Marx. They just hear the basic tenet "loot rich peoples' houses and give me their stuff" and they like this idea. Marxists and criminal thieves both share a very peculiar line of thought: "I don't have this, but they have this, therefore I should take it to balance this injustice". They have no thought to prudent forward planning, risk, hard work, skill value, etc. They just see the world as if they should be able to have whatever they lie eyes on just because they were born.
Nicholas Edwards
>He didn't say it according to the labor theory of value and his definition of a commodity land has no value on its own.
Jayden Edwards
>Value is derived from demand Then go to your local wallmart and get things you have no use or need for free then and see what happens.
>you could spend years of your life and thousands on materials making a giant sculpture of a toilet and its value is precisely zero Oh my God, give me strength. Yes, but there's one problem: marx never fucking said that you could spend a thousands years making a sculpture no-one wants and it be worth anything. Value can only be realized if it has social utility. If no-one wants something then its value is 0 because it can't be realized.
Jayden Miller
What workers? Where?? I highly doubt you are a working man. I suppose come the revolution you'll be part of the inner circle righ?? Not some peasant on a collective farm?..
Juan Hernandez
Because colleges have been infested by communist professors. During the cold war this was a concerted effort by the USSR to support sympathizers in foreign countries. Now the USSR collapsed under its own weight and the foreign sympathizer train is off the rails with no conductor, agitating against the majority for the sake of agitating.
Ethan Sanchez
The capitalist, who owns the means of production and who you are producing for.
>according to the labor theory of value No it according to the labour theory of value because nature can create value.
Well since we're from the UK, just look at who votes what. People in the north vote for labour more because there's more workers, especially in areas that used to produce coal or were industrial whereas as the south (barring inner london) vote more lib-dem or conservative because more of them are middle-class or bourgeoisie.
Adam Carter
>socially necessary labor Not a thing! Anime is not socially necessary to me but is very important to those who make it a multi-billion dollar market annually.
>natural value Also not a thing! Pork is very nutritive but prohibited in at least two major religions. It has no value there despite existing naturally!
>equilibrium and other smart person words i don't understand Also still hardcore wrong and gay and faggot! Price is the expression of value and if it's produced by market forces it is the equilibrium price! Pure and simple, gay faggot retard.
You couldn't draw a demand graph if I put a fucking gun to your head, you stupid bitch.
>machines cannot create value This is so fucking stupid I'll just leave it there.
>use value You mean value?
>exchange value You mean price?
>hurr durr a thing i don't want is valueless WRONG AGAIN MASSIVE FAGGOT! That Beanie Baby you don't care about? How many jobs are supported by the eBay transaction which facilitated the transfer of that doll? How about the number of jobs supported by its initial manufacture? The designer, the industrial engineers who devised the machines to make it, to make the packaging, the people who crewed the ships to bring it to the US and Europe from China, the people who marketed it, the truck drivers who brought them from ports to stores, the truck drivers and pilots who transported it during its secondary eBay sale... it's almost fucking endless describing the chain of value that went into that one thing. But you're a fucking moron. Honestly, at this point, the utility of markets is so visible anyone who can't understand that should just be fucking shot.
Joseph Lewis
No, its upshot is the dissolution of the state.
Elijah Murphy
>argument and reasoning? There is none. Its literally just pseudointellectual brainfarting of last century edgelords. Hes the Greta Thunbergstein of the past. Pure overrated bullshit.
This faggot has never even entered a factory or actually studied economics in his lifetime.
Elijah Lewis
Theft is an expression of demand, you fucking imbecile. For something to be without value there must be ABSOLUTELY NO DEMAND FOR IT, FUCKING RETARD FAGGOT. THEFT IS AN EXPRESSION OF DEMAND FUCKING RETARD FAGGOT.
>muh social utility >muh god gimme muh strength Wow, a Marxist appealing for the opiate of the masses. Anyway, UTILITY IS RELATIVE YOU FUCKING RETARD FAGGOT MORON CUM-DRINKING FUCKING FAGGOT CUNT. Also, your statement suggests that art has no social utility. Checkmate for the eight time, retard faggot.
Owen Barnes
I'm not talking about theft, I'm talking going to a vendor and saying you want something for free because you have no need for it. Value is already in something before it reaches the consumer, when a factory produces items, it can't sell them for less than the time it took to make them and the cost of the resources, because if they did there would have no point in doing it in the first place and they'd be selling at a loss. So no, value is not subjective, if it was the economy would make no fucking sense and you wouldn't be able to explain anything.
Asher Watson
I'm not a savage nor a boomer user. Typing etiquette is a spook nonetheless.
Alexander Phillips
See i just realised something. In a few areas Marxists really do hold power, in this case its in terms of language. As I was typing out my reply it hit me that we both used the word worker and both knew what we meant by it. I mean a middle class person in an office isn't someone you or I would call a worker. Yet a bloke in a garage is a worker same as someone in a factory. Kinda nuts how even I am using Marxist language. And i think thats a much more interesting thing to point out opposed to who votes where and why or how you can't really assume you know the motivations of why someone votes a certain way.
See i don't believe that there will ever be a socialist/communist society/system. But that the lasting effect of Marx will be in terms of language and what is or isn't socially acceptable. Its all this critical theory bullshit, cultural Marxism authoritarian social policies. This i beleive is and will be the legacy of Marx, the stain that is left on the world..
Robert Jenkins
I was talking about a cummunist utopia, you useless nigger. who has right to decide about these things over me, the worker of the labour?
Jaxon King
>I dont understand marxism how? did you actually fucking read it? Did you stop with marx?
Adam Howard
You don't plan a communist "utopia". it just happens.
Christopher Green
theyre not. the biggest proponents of marxism and biggest example of marxist political influence are union members.
