Morally justify taxation without resorting to arguments about things or services that i haven't asked for or agreed to...

No one cares what you think is morally just. No one needs to have an argument with you.
Whether or not you can morally justify anything is completely irrelevant to reality, this is what brainlet libertarians will never comprehend because they live in imaginary land and obsess over made up concepts, things that literally do not exist.
The eternal libertarian is like someone telling you to define what a forest is, as you are chopping down trees and ignoring the idiot, then he goes ''heh, guess you can't define what a forest is, are 2 trees a forest? how many trees does it make to create a forest,'' and you keep ignoring the idiot. That's you.

I don't really have a problem with taxation as long as it's within the confines of the Constitution. Regarding income tax however, forcefully taking the fruits of someone else's labor is the definition of slavery. The US government had more money than it knew what to do with before income tax was ever instated.

>Even if you agree with taxes in principal it's clear they are far too high
>Americans are now paying half their incomes in taxes between Federal and State Income Tax, Real Estate Tax, Sales Tax and user fees.
those are rookie numbers, agentina has more than 160 taxes, making us the second country with the highest tax burden in the world.

so you can't morally justify taxation?

again, MORALLY justify taxes
also
>without resorting to arguments about services that i haven't asked for or agreed to pay for

you didnt ask for the pipeline that pumps your poop away from your toilet? so you're an indian and your opinion is irrelevant

dumb nigger

such a long answer, just to say "no i can't"?

>engrish teacher
>thinking HIS opinion is relevant

im an offshore rig welder, thanks

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Your question is retarded. My answer gets down to the core of the issue and skips all the bullshit. Sorry you're too stupid to understand things, maybe when you turn 14 you will leave the libertarian cult and stop living in fantasy land where imaginary concepts affect the real world.

how much you earn 300k, do you fear exploding to 1000 pieces if someone fucks up the depressurization? How do you take a shit while on those mini submarines? Can you watch TV? How do you jack off? What training did you do to get the job? Can you move up career wise?

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>Killing people is bad.
>Who cares, lets kill people
sorry, but if you can't morally justify the actions you're taking, that makes you and your entire system an evil thing. How can you build a functioning society when its very roots are rotten?

Ok, brainlet. Imagine for a second that you are a normal person, I know it's hard, but try it.
You are a normal person eating a steak and a vegan comes up to you, he says ''MORALLY JUSTIFY EATING MEAT RIGHT NOW!!!!''
What is the normal response to this?
a) have a lengthy debate that doesn't go anywhere explaining why you think it's moral to eat meat
or
b) ''fuck off, retard''

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You are a normal person enjoying his private property, and the State comes up to you, he says "MORALLY JUSTIFY HAVING PRIVATE PROPERTY".
What is the normal response to this?
a) have a lengthy debate about the immorality and injustice that taxation means, waking up the people so that they won't let themselves get robbed anymore.
or
b) "oh i can't do anything, guess i'll let the State fuck my ass"

It doesn't matter if it is moral because the existence of the state is an involuntary contract, and the state has a natural monopoly on the use of force. If you don't like it, you can go live in Siberia with polar bears.

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>involuntary contract

This is so stupid I am not sure what to make of it. You're just proving my point, what the fuck are you smoking?
Did you not get the vegan example?

>Needing moral justification
Oof, allow me to introduce you to the real world

easy.
without taxes
the state couldn't afford aircraft carriers and tanks
which means that the state would be overthown--potentially by a more repressive state
hence, to maximize liberty
you need to pay taxes
so that the state can afford the war machines it needs
to fend off other states
and maximize your liberty.

if you were to not have a state/not pay taxes
then you would find yourself quickly absorbed into a state that can afford the war machines that individuals cannot.

>guess i can't answer your question, so i'll keep saying you're stupid
>maybe keep repeating that i'm right will actually make me right
you're embarrasing yourself

>can't morally justify taxation
imagine living in a world where everything was built on a rotten and evil system
And imagine liking it

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>Verily I say unto you, it's unfair that I till the lord's land from dusk till dawn as did my father, and his father before him. Paying tribute is theft, if only I present better arguments will this exploitation end

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You agree you live on and use the land that is de jure part of United states correct?
/thread

Liking it has nothingnto do with it, I dont ger mad at nature for destroying my home, I also dont sit around and whine at clouds hoping theyll stop doing what clouds do.
>Rotten
>Evil
Once again, welcome to reality. If everything was built on evil, its more than anything so-called good has built. And that speaks to why many people choose evil over good, its investment 101.

This. You have no right not to pay taxes unless you can defend that right, and you cant.

Fuck morality. Pay me nigger.

Debating people is a waste of time. If someone comes up to your property and wants to take it. Shoot him, just fucking shoot him.

>the state couldn't afford aircraft carriers and tanks
>morally justify taxation without resorting to arguments about things or services that i haven't asked for or agreed to pay for

ironically, the modern world is like this because some people wrote "huh, words"
>inb4 locke argued for the state
i'm not agreeing with him, i'm saying that "huh, words" MAYBE work sometimes

>real world is evil, but i cope with that because meh, i can't change it
?

>You have no right not to pay taxes unless you can defend that right, and you cant.
guess your daughter has no right not to be raped by a pack of jamals unless she can defend that right. And she can't

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How hard would it be to just meme people to stop giving their money away to this? Aside from anything that is already deducted before your paycheck obviously. I feel like any attempt to escalate would cause more people to become upset and fight back, no? How to accomplish this? Seems like a waste when no one paid before ww1 or whatever. Nobody likes taxes and the only argument is that services will fail, well, let’s see? Couldn’t you play off the current polarization to meme people to stop paying? What are they going to do, throw 60% of the population in jail? That would make the government seem pretty illegitimate.

first i have to define why that's my property or the other person will shoot me first saying that it's his property
in fact, if we don't define why we have the right to live, we must accept anyone can kill anyone because "muh welcome to the jungle"

dipshit.
did you not read the part where you get overthrown by another state?
if you want liberty, you need to pay taxes.
you're being willfully ignorant.
taxes-->aircraft carriers
only states can afford them
individuals would get roflstomped by any state.

as long as any state exists, participation in a state is necessary to maximize liberty.
is it not moral to maximize liberty?

You didn't agree to pay for the roads you drive on or the electricity that was run to your house... but here you are, using them.
You can live off the grid and pay nothing if you want. That is a possibility. Feel free to try it.
Otherwise, your taxes will be paid and you'll continue to use the services that paid for them.

>we must accept anyone can kill anyone because "muh welcome to the jungle"
Yeah, this is what America was all about.

A population can not be socially engineered into total übermenschen without a strong state.

>did you not read the part where you get overthrown by another state?
i stopped reading when you resorted to something that i haven't agreed to pay for
anyways, if defending ourselves is THAT good, why do we get robbed for it? i'd pay for it, but instead i go to jail if i don't do it

>You didn't agree to pay for the roads you drive on or the electricity that was run to your house... but here you are, using them.
we get taxed even for things we'll ever never use or even see
give me back all the money you've stolen from me (with interests, of course) and i'll stop using the things i'm getting taxed for
>You can live off the grid and pay nothing if you want.
no, you can't, the state owns all forests
and again
>without resorting to arguments about things or services that i haven't asked for or agreed to pay for

>The real world is evil
If and only if you believe in the same epistemological and ontological assumptions that Locke and company do, I do not. I thus do not think the actions have a moral quality, they are a responses to real and important issues such as others having no regard for the same moral views I have. Its strictly pragmatism, and whining about it according to social constructs made by people who dont share my worldview mean nothing to me and will be disregarded until their power points to me doing somethung else.
>No right not to be raped
Not a single right at all, rights wont protect her anyway, force will. Hence why I pay takes to the largest force around to enforce what I feel are my rights on to others regardless of their consent.

You're using those things and services though. By your very existence in a state you make use of its infrastructure. If you partake in any way in society, you use directly or indirectly its structures and ate therefore responsible for its upkeep.

Don't like it? Go ahead and move to Alaska or Canada and live off-grid from any civilization. Want the comfort of society? Find other anarchos to do the same with you. Don't cry when they kick you out for mooching.

Just in case you're as autistic as the average anarcho, using something implies consent.

you COULD NOT defeat a state.
period.
so, you need to participate in a state so that you don't end up as a slave somewhere.
that means paying taxes.
ask the American indians.
ask the european germanic tribes.
the state always roflstomps anarchy-loving individuals.
therefore, if you want to maximize liberty--a.k.a. not be a slave--you need to participate and pay taxes.

it's impossible to morally justify taxes in anything but an ethnostate
however in our current timeline they're a necessary evil for most 1st world countries to continue functioning, and there's so much corruption that only a fractional amount is actually used for the benefit of the people who pay them

>44. No government can give anything to anybody without first taking it from another. Government is, by its very nature, legalized taking. A limited amount of government is a necessary burden for national defense and internal order. Anything more is counterproductive to freedom and liberty.
Basically this. Id go maybe one step further and give aid to those families with lots of children (obvs excluding minorities/other races)

There's no "moral" reason for taxation to begin with. Your "argument" is irrelevant. Taxation is the cost you pay for living in a country.

You're using a bait and switch tactic here. You want everyone to agree with you that there is no "moral" reason for taxes and because you believe taxes must be based on morality, then by agreeing that taxes are immoral, you can feel justified in not paying them as a means at "getting back at the evil government". This is a poor argument and you should kill yourself as that is the only moral thing you can do at this point in your miserable life.

>Not a single right at all, rights wont protect her anyway, force will. Hence why I pay takes to the largest force around to enforce what I feel are my rights on to others regardless of their consent.
force (the state) protects her because she has the right to be protected. Does the state protect the rock's rights not to be thrown? no, because they haven't such rights, even if the state could protect them
And if protection is so good.. why do we get robbed for it? last time i checked, if something is good you'd pay for it voluntarily. Did people pay for mafia protection because it was good or because they'd get killed if they don't?

see if i use that something, it's because i already got robbed for it. Do you expect me to pay twice?

>land is a product of nature, not a product of human labor.
>therefore retuns to the unimproved value of land are a literal "free lunch" and taxing these returns cannot possibly be "theft"
>moreover, taxing the unimproved value of land does not harm incentives to produce improvements on top of the land, it's actually the other way around
>therefore it is moral for the state to treat economic rent from ownership of land as the basis for generating revenue to provide for the public goods that generally would not be provided by the free market alone
ancap FAGGOTS btfo by FACTS and LOGIC

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Necessary evil to prevent greater evil.

>There's no "moral" reason for taxation to begin with.
That's correct. Everything else you wrote is just the justification for having no justification for taxes

This. National Socialism with Georgist economics is the only way to go.

tbqh taxation should be optional so the dumb shit the state does just because they can force you to pay for it like jew wars and welfare for the lazy wont be able to be funded, but obviously people still want roads repaired and cops to catch violent criminals ect

Great! You got the answer and irrefutable proof you needed to not pay taxes! Quickly take this thread to your local government and tell them that from now on you will no longer pay ANY taxes. Be sure to record and post results to your youtube channel so we can all learn from your ways.

At this point, it doesn't matter. Literally.

You can tax everyone in the US at a rate of 100% - take everything someone earns in an entire year - and it is still not enough for the FedGov to make payroll and pay for all the shit they said they'd pay for...

The INTEREST on the debt is now about what our GDP is. Unfunded Liabilities are north of 200 Trillion dollars, depending on whom you talk to...

There is a mathematical limit to how much we can borrow and spend - blowing through mountains of treasure like a drunken sailor... But nobody knows what that limit is.

But we will all know what it is when it is finally reached. And I get the feeling that we're going to know quite soon... things will continue apace, until one day they abruptly don't.

Anyone who hasn't set aside something - anything - at this point is just a fucking mong whistling past the graveyard.

"National Socialism" is fucking gay. You can have a nation-state dedicated to largely promoting the interests of a single ethnic nation without the authoritarian faggotry.
I want national capitalism that gets rid of the practice and ideology of "landism" that plagues the USA. people tend to think that landlords have some moral right to the unearned income they generate from having their name on a title of a parcel of land. No, they have a moral right to the profits from all improvements on the land, but not from owning the land itself.

>i don't know anything about economics, the post

>things will continue apace, until one day they abruptly don't.
Very soon. All economic growth in our country after 2008 has been driven entirely by debt.

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The federal government isn't supposed to be able to tax anything other than goods in the first place. Income taxes especially are unconstitutional without even getting into how the government double dips on taxes like social security income which was taxed when you originally work and that gets taxed again when they pay you the social security.

>You can have a nation-state dedicated to largely promoting the interests of a single ethnic nation without the authoritarian faggotry.
The more authoritarian, the more efficient. How can you get something done without the strength to do it?

A constitution is only as good as the people who are willing to follow it. It's over, man.

Why do you ask the impossible?

>The more authoritarian, the more efficient. How can you get something done without the strength to do it?
how many levels of retard are you on? the market system allocates resources most efficiently, and achieves spontaneous, emergent order.
if you think order can only be achieved from the top down, you are ultimately a communist.

>I own land.
>You want to live on my land.
>I tell you that you can, if you pay me "X".
>Nobody is forcing you to live there.
>You pay me "X" and then bitch about "unearned income".

Nothing is stopping you from buying land and doing the same thing. If I rented out a house on land I owned - then I'm paying the property taxes, I'm paying for the maintenence, I'm paying for the improvements, PLUS I'm trusting you to not burn the fuckin place to the ground or run a meth lab or destroy the place...

You don't have a RIGHT to live on my land, pal.

>I can't do maths and simple sums, the post.

>the market system allocates resources most efficiently, and achieves spontaneous, emergent order.
Really? Can the market system develop aircraft carriers and wage war?

True. The Fed turned on a fire hose of free cash - literally zero interest - and aimed it at banks and Wall Street.

And they kept it turned on for a decade.

Any growth we might have had is just the result of a debt-fueled bender...

people live in buildings, not on unimproved parcels of land.
you are too retarded to understand the distinction between unimproved land, and improvements. you should probably just end your life.

You're a cuckold.
Private companies can pay for anything tax related and I'm not paying for niggers.

You have both asked, and agreed to pay for by living in a country with said tax.
Morality doesn't enter into it, unless you want to bring up you being immoral for trying to weasel out.

>Really? Can the market system develop aircraft carriers and wage war?
developing aircraft carriers and waging war is a necessary thing to do, but what does it have to do with efficiency?
note that in my first comment I said "treat economic rent from ownership of land as the basis for generating revenue to provide for the public goods that generally would not be provided by the free market alone"
military defense would be an example of one such public good.
in other words, I already addressed your point from the very beginning in my very first comment. get on my level faggot.

>posts up a whiny screed about "landism"
>people tend to think that landlords have some moral right to the unearned income they generate from having their name on a title of a parcel of land.

I refute your horse-shit argument.

>It's not about land even though I whined about it.

That's fucking retarded.

>No, they have a moral right to the profits from all improvements on the land, but not from owning the land itself.

Says who? YOU? Who the fuck are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? Go fuck yourself.

>>It's not about land even though I whined about it.
>That's fucking retarded.
No, it IS about land. that's the entire point.
the other point is that you are clearly TOO FUCKING RETARDED to even understand what "land" is.
Here you go, let me spoonfeed your retarded, economically ignorant ass (you fucking faggot).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(economics)

>developing aircraft carriers and waging war is a necessary thing to do, but what does it have to do with efficiency?
Can a small state perform the same tasks as a large state? Can a small state accomplish nearly as much? The answer is no, it should be fairly obvious why.
>military defense would be an example of one such public good.
Then you are on the same page as me.

What part of indirectly don't you understand? It's a whole package you buy in.
Say you have a business. Even if you pay for all infrastructure your business uses, your customers use different infrastructure. Courts, laws and reliable currency count here too, btw. All of you, your customers, your employees and you, you're making use of society.

It's really simple.

>morally justify
But taxes aren't moral issues, might as well ask people to justify it geometrically lmao.
Taxes weren't implemented because of morals

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>Can a small state perform the same tasks as a large state? Can a small state accomplish nearly as much? The answer is no, it should be fairly obvious wh
A small state that focused on the essential functions of government would necessarily have more resources to fund its military than if it was wasting resources on a bunch of non-essential functions.
this is fucking obvious, it's the concept of opportunity cost that you were supposed to learn in week 1 on your economics class.

Do you need someone to explain to you what "go fuck yourself" means?

There's a reason why Wikipedia is not a trusted source... for any-fucking-thing. Anyone who gets their information from it and uses it as a source should have their dick slammed in a desk drawer...

Now... GO FUCK YOURSELF, RETARD.

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>than if it was wasting resources on a bunch of non-essential functions
I disagree with you on what is essential, clearly.

>morally justify taxation without resorting to arguments about things or services that i haven't asked for or agreed to pay for
your taxes go to funding morality itself. if you don't pay morality stops existing.

kek, you are a retarded faggot. i'll go fuck myself while you go KILL YOURSELF for being such a fucking retard.

You are not isolated, you are part of society and country around you. Taxation can be used to keep down desperation making society safer.

>I disagree with you on what is essential, clearly.
you think economies can only be organized from the top down. you're a Soviet communist. they failed because they couldn't into the market system and tried to plan the whole economy. you are a fucking retard.

Do you think other people should respect your property rights?

>you think economies can only be organized from the top down.
No, I don't lmao

>The more authoritarian, the more efficient. How can you get something done without the strength to do it?
an exact quote from you "The more authoritarian, the more efficient. How can you get something done without the strength to do it?"
how is that not a claim that things can only be organized from the top down. indeed, you claimed it is more efficient to do so than to allow the market to work.

>you claimed it is more efficient to do so than to allow the market to work.
There are certain things the market can not do. You said this yourself.

Taxes are a by product of making nations work. Nations are a thing because the bigger guy in strength is the one who decides what happens.

The only way you can get away from being a "slave" of the state is if we can live in a world where you don't need that defense. And frankly we don't.

So morally taxation and being protected and provided services from the state is more moral than having some abusive hostile nation or criminal come and kill / exploit you. There's no magical "let's stop paying taxes and everything will be fine" option.

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I take out a loan and buy land.

I take out another loan and build an apartment building - INCLUDING the cost of maintenance for the next 50 years.

I ensure that it is safe, well made, up to code and comfortable for people who CHOOSE to live there.

I pay the interest on both loans.

I pay the principal on both loans.

I pay the property taxes.

I pay for anything not covered by the maintenance allocation.

I pay for any upgrades that are deemed lawful and necessary.

>You: WAAAAH! UNEARNED INCOME!

Eat a bag of dicks you pig-ignorant Bolshevik piece of dog shit.

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You agree to pay taxes by staying in the country, argentina doesn't force people to stay as citizens

>There are certain things the market can not do. You said this yourself.
that doesn't justify your claim that "The more authoritarian, the more efficient."

If you aren’t taxed by your government to pay for roads which allows your economy to grow, you won’t have a military. If you don’t have a military, you’ll be invaded and taxed by a government that isn’t yours.

>>You: WAAAAH! UNEARNED INCOME!
how fucking retarded are you that you can't recognize the clear distinction that I've made between returns on the unimproved value of land and returns on improvements to land?

>refute this
>btw you're not allowed to use the intended purpose of this to make an argument
Yeah, go fuck yourself disingenuous fuck. Kill yourself without using any of the services that you already paid for to do it.

>feeding poor people is stupid
>Check flag
Sounds about right to me.

>that doesn't justify your claim that "The more authoritarian, the more efficient."
Yes, it does. Government officials are selected on merit. They can properly guide people, whereas people many not be able to guide themselves (drugs, gambling, etc.)

I don't much care about anything you have to say.

You tried to play fiddleyfuck and move the goalposts - first it's about "land" and "landism" and the next it's not - trying to backstop your piss-weak position with some horseshit Wiki page.

And you got fuckin destroyed.

Best bet now for you is to just fade out and fuck off back to whatever you call a life. Maybe drink a few more onions lattes and polish that bike lock up for the next AntiFa Rally of Peace...

Stupid fuck.